WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[GodsGrace]

Does this open up a potential can of worms? What I got out of this is that Moses is guilty of doing what Jesus was addressing with the Pharisees. Can you clarify?

The above is for StoveBolts ,,,
but could you just say what Jesus was telling the Pharisees?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom... - James 2:12

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. - Romans 2:13,16

I think the church needs to wake up and realize the righteousness they have received in Jesus Christ is so they can live righteously and be prepared for the Day of Judgement where our lives will in fact be judged "by the law that gives freedom".

We won't be judged in regard to a holy day, or a literal Sabbath. We will be judged according to the royal law, "love your neighbor as yourself" - Leviticus 19:18. And that's not just talking about warm fuzzy feelings for people, but loving people with action, not just words (James 2:14-17 , 1 John 3:18).

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you mean by 'follow the law'? Simply keep it?
Whether by the letter of the law, or through the Spirit, the law is, nonetheless, still being 'kept'. It's just that you're actually going to be able to do it successfully if you do it through the Spirit.


I showed where the NT teaches literal keeping of various laws in the law of Moses. And I showed where it teaches where it is not necessary to literally keep various laws in the law of Moses.

It's a mistake to look at the law of Moses in an 'either/or', 'black or white' way when it comes to what we do in regard to the question of whether we obey the law of Moses or not in this New Covenant. Some things still require literal fulfillment, other things don't. The reason behind that decision is what helps us understand what is literally kept and what does not have to be literally kept.

Jethro,,,,
it's good to have you on this thread because I'm, quite frankly, tiring of explaining the same idea over and over. You bring a fresh perspective and perhaps one that is more easily understood.

You've noted that some of the O.T. commandments are to be kept and not others.
The reason there is a problem is because some on this thread refuse to understand this,,,
Drew would be one such person.

The O.T. commandments/rules/ordinances, etc. actually have been categorized.
They have been put into separate categories by Ceremonial Law, Civil Law and Moral Law.
Even if someone does not accept the work of scholars, this is plain to see in the N.T. by the way in which YOU have shown the differences.

The end result is that the ceremonial law and the civil law have been abolished because they do not have to be obeyed if we follow Jesus.

The Moral Law will never be abolished because God gave us the moral law from the beginning of time and CONFIRMED it as the 10 commandments, which are included in the Law of Moses.
The problem seems to be the unwillingness to accept this.

 

[GodsGrace]

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom... - James 2:12

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. - Romans 2:13,16

I think the church needs to wake up and realize the righteousness they have received in Jesus Christ is so they can live righteously and be prepared for the Day of Judgement where our lives will in fact be judged "by the law that gives freedom".

We won't be judged in regard to a holy day, or a Sabbath. We will be judged according to the royal law, "love your neighbor as yourself" - Leviticus 19:18. And that's not just talking about warm fuzzy feelings for people, but loving people with action, not just words (James 2:14-17 , 1 John 3:18).

Jesus said we will be judged by our good deeds....
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

 

[stovebolts]

The Moral Law will never be abolished because God gave us the moral law from the beginning of time and CONFIRMED it as the 10 commandments, which are included in the Law of Moses.
The problem seems to be the unwillingness to accept this.

While I agree in Spirit, you do not understand the Law within the Bible well enough to articulate it properly.
As I wrote to JLB, the 10 commandments are not considered the Law of Moses. This is a misunderstanding you and others don't seem willing to correct for some reason or another that I do not understand.

The Laws of Moses are found in Deuteronomy and originate from Moses, not God. By way of example within the NT, divorce is a law of Moses and not a law of God.

The 10 commandments were written by God's own finger. They are God's Laws, not the Law of Moses because they originated directly from God.

We cannot talk about these laws without mentioning God's Laws and the Law of Moses were specific to the Israelites under the Sinai Covenant. In other words, if you weren't under the Sinai Covenant, they were not directed at you.

This is where the Noahide covenant comes in as all people are contained within those laws.

 

[Drew]

I am going to bow out of this particular thread. Cheers.

 

[GodsGrace]

While I agree in Spirit, you do not understand the Law within the Bible well enough to articulate it properly.
As I wrote to JLB, the 10 commandments are not considered the Law of Moses. This is a misunderstanding you and others don't seem willing to correct for some reason or another that I do not understand.

The Laws of Moses are found in Deuteronomy and originate from Moses, not God. By way of example within the NT, divorce is a law of Moses and not a law of God.

The 10 commandments were written by God's own finger. They are God's Laws, not the Law of Moses because they originated directly from God.

We cannot talk about these laws without mentioning God's Laws and the Law of Moses were specific to the Israelites under the Sinai Covenant. In other words, if you weren't under the Sinai Covenant, they were not directed at you.

This is where the Noahide covenant comes in as all people are contained within those laws.

You haven't said anything I haven't been saying.

The 10 commandments are not the Law of Moses.
They are known as the 10 commandments.
The Law of Moses is comprised of 613 laws/rules/ordinances.

Within these 613 are contained, also, the 10.
The 10 are known as the Moral Law.
They are still in effect.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am going to bow out of this particular thread. Cheers.

I'm sorry to see you go Drew,,,,without having taken anything out of this important thread,
for which there seems to be much confusion.

I do hope you study on your own regarding the Law of Moses,,,,
and whether or not it is divided into categories.
Herein lies the confusion, IMO, and a clear understanding of this would help a lot.

 

[GodsGrace]

While I agree in Spirit, you do not understand the Law within the Bible well enough to articulate it properly.
As I wrote to JLB, the 10 commandments are not considered the Law of Moses. This is a misunderstanding you and others don't seem willing to correct for some reason or another that I do not understand.

The Laws of Moses are found in Deuteronomy and originate from Moses, not God. By way of example within the NT, divorce is a law of Moses and not a law of God.

The 10 commandments were written by God's own finger. They are God's Laws, not the Law of Moses because they originated directly from God.

We cannot talk about these laws without mentioning God's Laws and the Law of Moses were specific to the Israelites under the Sinai Covenant. In other words, if you weren't under the Sinai Covenant, they were not directed at you.

This is where the Noahide covenant comes in as all people are contained within those laws.

Have you read all my posts on this site?
What do you think I don't understand about the law?
(if it's relevant to this thread).

 

[stovebolts]

You haven't said anything I haven't been saying.

The 10 commandments are not the Law of Moses.
They are known as the 10 commandments.
The Law of Moses is comprised of 613 laws/rules/ordinances.

Within these 613 are contained, also, the 10.
The 10 are known as the Moral Law.
They are still in effect.

No, your wrong. The 10 are part of the 613 within the Sinai Covenant. They were for Israel who entered into that covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, your wrong. The 10 are part of the 613 within the Sinai Covenant. They were for Israel who entered into that covenant.

I'm wrong?
Who said so?

If the 10 were part of the 613,,,,
then are you saying the 10 commandments have been abolished?

 

[stovebolts]

I'm wrong?
Who said so?

If the 10 were part of the 613,,,,
then are you saying the 10 commandments have been abolished?

I believe your premise of your opening post is off.
Here is a correct way to view the 613.
The two greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor.
The 10 greatest are divided in two parts. First half are how to live God, other half is how to love your neighbor. Loving parents bridges God and neighbor because how you love your parents is a reflection how you will love God.
The 10 explode out to the remaining 603.
Again, these are part of the covenant between God and Israel.

Your moral laws in which you speak are the 7 from the Noahide covenant and is universal for all humanity.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through the angels by a mediator.

Okay, how do I describe this so that it shows a non-contradictory thing happening?

Here we go......... The law was given until the Spirit was given. His words will never pass away because we will be with him in eternity.........starting now if we let him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe your premise of your opening post is off.
Here is a correct way to view the 613.
The two greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor.
The 10 greatest are divided in two parts. First half are how to live God, other half is how to love your neighbor. Loving parents bridges God and neighbor because how you love your parents is a reflection how you will love God.
The 10 explode out to the remaining 603.
Again, these are part of the covenant between God and Israel.

Your moral laws in which you speak are the 7 from the Noahide covenant and is universal for all humanity.

I could live with that.
But the commandment is not to LOVE your parents.
We are to HONOR our parents. There's a difference.

So exactly what did YOU say that I haven't been saying?

Here's an easy question for everyone:

ARE WE TO OBEY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (as born again Christians).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through the angels by a mediator.

Okay, how do I describe this so that it shows a non-contradictory thing happening?

Here we go......... The law was given until the Spirit was given. His words will never pass away because we will be with him in eternity.........starting now if we let him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe your premise of your opening post is off.
Here is a correct way to view the 613.
The two greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor.
The 10 greatest are divided in two parts. First half are how to live God, other half is how to love your neighbor. Loving parents bridges God and neighbor because how you love your parents is a reflection how you will love God.
The 10 explode out to the remaining 603.
Again, these are part of the covenant between God and Israel.

Your moral laws in which you speak are the 7 from the Noahide covenant and is universal for all humanity.

P.S.
I have mentioned the Noahic several times...
but the O.P. is not about those but about the Law of Moses and whether or not we are to obey it,,,or which part of it we are to obey.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Laws of Moses are found in Deuteronomy and originate from Moses, not God.

After giving the 10 Commandments, God gave Moses a very lengthy list of laws to give to the people:

1“These are the laws you are to set before them (God speaking):" - Exodus 21:1

This list goes on to the end of the Book and includes all kinds of laws of personal relationships and temple requirements--all given by God himself, and which is called the law of Moses.

By way of example within the NT, divorce is a law of Moses and not a law of God.

Yes, that is a Rabbinical judgment. They were to be obeyed right along with the rest of the law. The people were bound by these judgments, too. There's really no point in trying to discern God's actual commands from Moses' judgments since they were equally binding on the people. My understanding is, Rabbis could add to or change previous Rabbinical judgments. As head Rabbi, that's what Jesus did.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I could live with that.
But the commandment is not to LOVE your parents.
We are to HONOR our parents. There's a difference.

So exactly what did YOU say that I haven't been saying?

Here's an easy question for everyone:

ARE WE TO OBEY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (as born again Christians).

I rely on Christ in me to do the right thing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Time out!
I have to go keep the Sabbath holy......................

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ARE WE TO OBEY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (as born again Christians).

Yes, and all the others, too. But some aren't required to be literally kept anymore, not because they can be broken now, but because they are simply not needed anymore to accomplish what they were given to accomplish. Animal sacrifice being the simplest and easiest example of this. We don't break the commands about animal sacrifices by not keeping them. We no longer need to accomplish what they were given to accomplish.