We are NOT in the End Times

[Stormcrow]

I'm just happening through on this Saturday afternoon when I should be outside working, lol...

I think this is considered an anti-christ reference in Daniel:

"...when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power." (Daniel 8:23-25 NIV1984)

It's a prophecy of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Might pay to Google it before Google starts collecting private information and selling it to the highest bidder. :eeeekkk

 

[Hitch]

Really? I think I said 'except the sign of Jonah' in many other places.

LOL in one other place,post # 171 which came after I corrected you five or six times. Until then you not only loped off our Lord's quote in mid sentence you changed the structure to fit your dogma. You are not allowed to alter Scripture;
He said a generation would seek a sign; an evil and adulterous generation. No sign shall be given it.

And then you tried to make it seem as though I had been quibbling over one word. Tsk tsk

Maybe I should quote the entire gospel next time to get you to see one word.

LOL Man up

That that generation would only be given the sign of Jonah was not relevant to my argument. What I said was he didn't say 'his' generation. The point was he said no sign shall be given 'it'. The word ''it' was actually the only word that I should have put in quotes.

Still what does it matter. You can't see.

Well,, your conclusion is as good as your alteration .

 

[MarkT]

wow, so he wasnt talking to them? they came to seek a sign and that was his response.

with that poor exegesis you can make the bible say what you want. not wise.

i dont and im not a preterist ,just a simple sinner saved by grace who wants to know what the word does say and ajdust to its commands.

im not perfect and i dont pretend to fully have the end times answers but man lets not ingore the rule of basic bible reading. even my pre-tribber pastors and friends that i know would agree with this!

He was talking to them, just not talking about them. The ones who saw and heard Jesus were shown many signs. Yet Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So Jesus was speaking of another generation. Not everyone gets this understanding apparently. It's not an interpretation. It's an understanding.

I don't care what your pastors and your pretrib friends say. Read the Bible. The root has to be in you, not in what your teachers say. Because this is a different time. We have the Bible. It's the book Isaiah said would open the eyes of the blind. Let the Spirit of God teach you.

 

[MarkT]

LOL in one other place,post # 171 which came after I corrected you five or six times LOL Man up Well,, your conclusion is as good as your alteration .

And you still don't get it. I can't even get the word 'it' into your head. That's what happens when your body is full of darkness.

 

[Vic C.]

It's a prophecy of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Might pay to Google it before Google starts collecting private information and selling it to the highest bidder. :eeeekkk

Look a little closer. I believe this is in reference to the Roman authorities who did the dirty deed of crucifying Christ.

BTW, Google already collects IP addys and search preferences.

 

[Vic C.]

People (Mark), Reba has already asked that the personal attacks cease.

Please! :bigfrown

 

[Hitch]

He was talking to them, just not talking about them. The ones who saw and heard Jesus were shown many signs. Yet Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So Jesus was speaking of another generation. Not everyone gets this understanding apparently. It's not an interpretation. It's an understanding.

I don't care what your pastors and your pretrib friends say. Read the Bible. The root has to be in you, not in what your teachers say. Because this is a different time. We have the Bible. It's the book Isaiah said would open the eyes of the blind. Let the Spirit of God teach you.

Grammar aint your thing Mark but you have demonstrated enough understanding to to attempt to pass of your own translation of the passage.

He said a generation would seek a sign; an evil and adulterous generation. No sign shall be given it.


You have no a chance, linguistically ,doctrinally,or logically.

It's good we have in print the mangling of text you're willing to stoop to, on this single passage, as a window to the cultic mindset of the Modalist.

 

[jasoncran]

He was talking to them, just not talking about them. The ones who saw and heard Jesus were shown many signs. Yet Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So Jesus was speaking of another generation. Not everyone gets this understanding apparently. It's not an interpretation. It's an understanding.

I don't care what your pastors and your pretrib friends say. Read the Bible. The root has to be in you, not in what your teachers say. Because this is a different time. We have the Bible. It's the book Isaiah said would open the eyes of the blind. Let the Spirit of God teach you.

so i shouldnt listen to my pastor? really?

let me tell you what my pastor did today and god told me what he would do last night!

i have a besetting sin that i at times fall pray to and its has affected my marriage so i asked god to deliver me. he told me that at church the pastor would give me a word

he did. he prayed for me and what he prayed over me to the exact word is what god is dealing with me and has been for some time(years) .

so dont bother telling me what to read or whom to read when god tells me to go to them and reasearch. my soul belongs to him not you. i came to these conclusion as i asked god what does your word support.

vic will testify of the changes he has seen.

i could post all the jewish thinking i have read on and come to see that also has made me leave the pre-trib thinking.

i can and have taught the bible to kids and also i am doing to nathan and my step-daughter.what i have read and learned through the years has come in parts from church bible studies/ radio ministries and mainly my OWN bible time with god.

 

[reba]

Good for you Jason Good for you!


Love the avatar!

 

[jasoncran]

that is me in that picture,. she was leaning and bumping my forehead on her own.

so monica took that pic about ten minutes ago from the time of this post and i added as my avatar.

the pastors wife calls her the church angel., she slepts in the middle of church services despite all the noise.

 

[Hitch]

Real pictures of Jason??? We are in the End Times

 

[jasoncran]

lol.reba asked me to post new pics of jaci when they get old.

many a mods and members here do contact each other off the site. i have talked to mike and jeff over the phone and also have talked to others on facebook. some have met each other in person.

 

[Stormcrow]

Not to derail the thread, but here is a "blow-by blow" account of the historical fulfillment of this passage:

"...when rebels have become completely wicked,

In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.
1 Maccabees 1:11 (KJVApocrypha)

a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power.

And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king [Antiochus the Great], who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks. 1 Maccabees 1:10 (KJVApocrypha)

He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes*.

20 And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude, 21 And entered proudly into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, 22 And the table of the shewbread, and the pouring vessels, and the vials. and the censers of gold, and the veil, and the crown, and the golden ornaments that were before the temple, all which he pulled off.

23 He took also the silver and the gold, and the precious vessels: also he took the hidden treasures which he found.

24 And when he had taken all away, he went into his own land, having made a great massacre, and spoken very proudly. 25 Therefore there was a great mourning in Israel, in every place where they were;

26 So that the princes and elders mourned, the virgins and young men were made feeble, and the beauty of women was changed.

29 And after two years fully expired the king sent his chief collector of tribute unto the cities of Juda, who came unto Jerusalem with a great multitude, 30 And spake peaceable words unto them, but all was deceit: for when they had given him credence, he fell suddenly upon the city, and smote it very sore, and destroyed much people of Israel.

31 And when he had taken the spoils of the city, he set it on fire, and pulled down the houses and walls thereof on every side.
1 Maccabees 1:20-26, 29-31 (KJVApocrypha)

Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power." (Daniel 8:23-25 NIV1984)

8 Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved: whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it had not befallen him as he looked for. 9 And there he continued many days: for his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die. 10 Wherefore he called for all his friends, and said unto them, The sleep is gone from mine eyes, and my heart faileth for very care. 11 And I thought with myself, Into what tribulation am I come, and how great a flood of misery is it, wherein now I am! for I was bountiful and beloved in my power.

12 But now I remember the evils that I did at Jerusalem, and that I took all the vessels of gold and silver that were therein, and sent to destroy the inhabitants of Judea without a cause.

13 I perceive therefore that for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through great grief in a strange land. 14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, who he made ruler over all his realm, 15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year. 1 Maccabees 6:8-16 (KJVApocrypha)

* Prince of princes here is a reference to the High Priest Onias, whom Antiochus replaced with a Hellenist. Priests were princes in the kingdom of God of the Old Covenant. Therefore, the "Prince of princes" was the High Priest. The word "princes" is used this way throughout the OT:

26 So that the princes and elders mourned...

The prophecies relating to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem can be found in Daniel, chapters 7 and 12.

Chapters 8, 9, 10 and 11 are prophecies about Greece.

 

[MarkT]

Grammar aint your thing Mark but you have demonstrated enough understanding to to attempt to pass of your own misguided and misleading translation of the passage.

He said a generation would seek a sign; an evil and adulterous generation. No sign shall be given it.


You have no a chance, linguistically ,doctrinally,or logically.

It's good we have in print the mangling of text you're willing to stoop to, on this single passage, as a window to the cultic mindset of the Modalist.

You have not refuted one thing I said. Now you're resorting to name calling. LOL What's a Modalist?

 

[MarkT]

By the way, if I didn't include every word , it was only because it wasn't necessary to see my point. If you think including "except the sign of the prophet Jonah" alters or changes the fact Jesus was speaking of a future generation or it somehow makes your point (assuming you have one), then make your case.

 

[reba]

Twice it has been asked to stop with the personal attacks.
The deleting has started. reba

 

[Vic C.]

Storm, we will simply have to agree to disagree and maybe look at both interpretations in another time and topic. :nod

Peace,
Vic

 

[Hitch]

By the way, if I didn't include every word , it was only because it wasn't necessary to see my point. If you think including "except the sign of the prophet Jonah" alters or changes the fact Jesus was speaking of a future generation or it somehow makes your point (assuming you have one), then make your case.

American Standard Version
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
Darby Bible Translation
But he, answering, said to them, A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it save the sign of Jonas the prophet.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh for a sign, and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Weymouth New Testament
"Wicked and faithless generation!" He replied, "they clamour for a sign, but none shall be given to them except the sign of the Prophet Jonah.
World English Bible
But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Young's Literal Translation
And he answering said to them, 'A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;

In each case the 'sign' of Jonas came tp pass in the first century. Jesus Christ was raised on the third day nearly 2,000 years ago.

Barnes' Notes on the BibleAn evil and adulterous generation - The relation of the Jews to God was often represented as a marriage contract - God as the husband, and the Jewish people as the wife.
See Isaiah 57:3; Hosea 3:1; Ezekiel 16:15. Hence, their apostasy and idolatry are often represented as adultery. This is the meaning, probably, here. They were evil, and unfaithful to the covenant or to the commandments of God - an apostate and corrupt people. There is, however, evidence that they were literally an adulterous people.
There shall no sign be given to it ... - They sought some direct miracle "from heavens." Jesus replied that no "such" miracle should be given. He did not mean to say that he would work no more miracles, or give no more evidence that he was the Christ, but he would give "no such miracle" as they required. "He would give one that ought to be as satisfactory evidence to them that he was from God, as the miraculous preservation of Jonah was to the Ninevites that he was divinely commissioned." As Jonah was preserved three days by miracle and then restored alive, so he would be raised from the dead after three days. As on the ground of this preservation the Ninevites believed Jonah and repented, so, on the ground of his resurrection, the people of an adulterous and wicked generation ought to repent, and believe that he was from God. "The sign of the prophet Jonas" means the "sign" or "evidence" which was given to the people of Nineveh that he was from God - to wit, that he had been miraculously preserved, and was therefore divinely commissioned. The word "Jonas" is the Greek way of writing the Hebrew word "Jonah," as "Elias" is for "Elijah."


Clarke's Commentary on the BibleAn evil and adulterous generation - Or, race of people; for so γενεα should be translated here, and in most other places in the Gospels; for our Lord, in general, uses it to point out the Jewish people. This translation is a key to unlock some very obscure passages in the evangelists.
Seeketh after a sign - Or, seeketh another sign, (επιζητει), so I think this word should be translated. Our Lord had already given the Jews several signs; and here they desire sign upon sign.
Our Lord terms the Jews an adulterous race. Under the old covenant, the Jewish nation was represented as in a marriage contract with the Lord of hosts; as believers, in the new covenant, are represented as the spouse of Christ. All unfaithfulness and disobedience was considered as a breach of this marriage contract; hence the persons who were thus guilty are denominated adulterers and adulteresses. But, independently of this, there is the utmost proof, from their own writings, that in the time of our Lord they were most literally an adulterous race of people: for, at this very time, R. Jochanan ben Zacchai abrogated the trial by the bitter waters of jealousy, because so many were found to be thus criminal. See on John 8:3 (note).


Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleBut he answered and said unto them,.... Not to the Pharisees, who were unworthy of an answer from him; having, in such an imperious manner, and with a sole view to tempt him, and after such miracles were wrought by him, required of him a sign from heaven; but to the multitude, the throng of people gathered thick together on this occasion, see Matthew 12:45 he turns himself from the Scribes and Pharisees, to the common people, and says to them concerning the former,
an evil and adulterous generation; not only in a spiritual sense, being degenerated from the faith, religion, and piety of their ancestors; but literally, which appeared not only in their polygamy, and frequent divorces on trivial occasions, but by criminal conversation with other women; see John 8:9 and this, with the Jews themselves, is a character of the generation in which the Messiah comes: for they say (h),
"that just when the Messiah comes, or in the age the son of David comes, "impudence shall be increased", corn and wine shall be dear, the government shall be heretics, , "and the synagogue shall become a brothel house".''
Their meaning is, that the chief magistrates should be Sadducees, and those that pretended to religion and holiness would be adulterers, which was now the case. Their writings (i) frequently speak of the increase and abounding of adulteries, under the second temple, and about this time; which obliged Jochanan ben Zaccai and the sanhedrim, to leave off the use of the bitter waters.
Seeketh after a sign; this is perfectly Talmudic language, the language of the Jews (k).
"The disciples of R. Jose ben Kismai, asked him, when the Son of David came? He replied, I am afraid, lest , "ye should seek of me a sign"; they say unto him, we will not "seek of thee a sign".''
This the Jews sought of Christ, time after time; not content with one, sought another, though such wonderful ones were wrought, which most fully demonstrated him to be the Messiah; and therefore he would not indulge this temper in them; but declared, that
there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. Not that no miracles should afterwards be wrought amongst them; for, after this, many wondrous works were done by Christ; but no such signs should be given they desired, not one from heaven; but one particularly should be given them, out of the earth, and should be, not for their conviction, but condemnation; and would seem very much like that which was done to the prophet Jonas, or Jonah; for so is his name in the Hebrew language, the other being the Greek termination of it.
(h) Misn. Sota c. 9. sect. 15. T. Bab. Sanhed. fol. 97. 1.((i) Misn. Sota, c. 9. sect. 9. & Maimon. Hilch. Sota, c. 3. sect. 19. (k) T. Bab. Sanhedrim, fol. 98. 1. so , "seeketh a sign", Shemot Rabba, Parash. 9. fol. 97. 2.

Vincent's Word StudiesAdulterous (μοιχαλὶς)
A very strong and graphic expression, founded upon the familiar Hebrew representation of the relation of God's people to him under the figure of marriage. See Psalm 73:27; Isaiah 57:3 sqq.; Isaiah 62:5; Ezekiel 23:27. Hence idolatry and intercourse with Gentiles were described as adultery; and so here, of moral unfaithfulness to God. Compare James 4:4 :; Revelation 2:20 sqq. Thus Dante:
"Where Michael wrought
Vengeance upon the proud adultery."
Inf., vii., 12.

Geneva Study BibleBut he answered and said unto them, An evil and {f} adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
(f) Bastard, who fell from Abraham's faith or forsook the true worship of God.

People's New Testament 12:39 An evil and adulterous generation. We must keep in mind that the Lord is speaking to his enemies. He compares them to a faithless wife. They were faithless to God. See Mt 16:4.
The sign of the prophet Jonah. See Mt 12:40.


Wesley's Notes 12:39 An adulterous generation - Whose heart wanders from God, though they profess him to be their husband. Such adulterers are all those who love the world, and all who seek the friendship of it. Seeketh a sign - After all they have had already, which were abundantly sufficient to convince them, had not their hearts been estranged from God, and consequently averse to the truth. The sign of Jonah - Who was herein a type of Christ.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary39. But he answered and said unto them-"when the people were gathered thick together" (Lu 11:29).
an evil and adulterous generation-This latter expression is best explained by Jer 3:20, "Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord." For this was the relationship in which He stood to the covenant-people-"I am married unto you" (Jer 3:14).
seeketh after a sign-In the eye of Jesus this class were but the spokesmen of their generation, the exponents of the reigning spirit of unbelief.
and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

In each case the commentator adopt the only possible understanding.



Im finished with Mark. Take the last word Mark I will not respond.

http://bible.cc/matthew/12-39.htm

 

[MarkT]

In each case the 'sign' of Jonas came tp pass in the first century. Jesus Christ was raised on the third day nearly 2,000 years ago.


In each case the commentator adopt the only possible understanding.

My mistake is all in your mind Hitch. The structure of that line is different because it is not a direct quote. I didn't intend it to be. You have to refute what I said. I'm not interested in reading your commentaries. That's the way you think - take a line and create a story around it. For example, you said something about the sign of Jonah being the greatest sign. Jesus didn't say that. He said it would be the only sign. So you aren't actually reading and understanding. You're just making stuff up because it sounds good. Maybe my words are confusing to you. When I say 'it would be the only sign', I'm telling you what Jesus said in my own words.

Like I said ,Mark took a shovel to the passage as though it were dirt in his silly and self serving nonsensical approach. No one with a basic understanding of English lacking an agenda similar to Marks will have any trouble with this verse. Basically Mark is in LALA LAND .

I will end now.

You didn't refute anything. When somebody has to explain something to somebody else, it is the other person who does not understand. I know what I'm talking about. You might say I made a factual error. But even that wouldn't be true. The fact that no sign except the sign of Jonah will be given the evil and adulterous generation doesn't change the fact that Jesus was talking about a future generation. That's what we're talking about. You have misdirected, made false accusations, engaged in name calling because you have no answer. All you can do is quote your sources that are polluted springs.

 

[MarkT]

And he answering said to them, 'A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;

In each case the 'sign' of Jonas came tp pass in the first century. Jesus Christ was raised on the third day nearly 2,000 years ago.

Those who have the Spirit of God, have the sign of Jonah as well.