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What do we believe about the Resurrection?

Yeshua and Paul taught me that, not my carnal mind (Mt 16:6-12; 1Cor 5:6-7; Gal 5:9).

First off, the leaven talked about in Matt 16:6-12 was the leaven of the Pharisees and Saduucees.

But more importantly. You have stated that the leaven is indicative of sin. And yet with the offering of the firstfruits, it was to be offered with the leaven. Why would the Lord ask them to mix sin into their offering?

Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals:they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
 
First off, the leaven talked about in Matt 16:6-12 was the leaven of the Pharisees and Saduucees.

But more importantly. You have stated that the leaven is indicative of sin. And yet with the offering of the firstfruits, it was to be offered with the leaven. Why would the Lord ask them to mix sin into their offering?

Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals:they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.

So we would know that those firstfruits were not referring to Yeshua, but to men that were not sinless. Not even the 288,000 servants of Messiah Yeshua were sinless, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of Elohim (Rom 3:23).
 
While John was on the island of Patmos on Earth when he was shown the vision, he was caught up into heaven (not literally, but in the Spirit through the vision) and saw what was taking place in heaven (Rev 14:1). As I understand it, the entire vision of Revelation is being seen by John while he is in heaven via the Spirit.


Something for you to consider.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John was already born again. Born of the Living Spirit. So except you be born again, born of the Spirit. You CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God. Their eyes being yet blind to the truth.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 
The four beasts and the elders of Rev 14:3 are the same ones seen in Rev 4:6-11 in the throneroom of heaven worshiping YHWH. They are clearly in heaven in both chapters. The four horses of Rev 6 are on Earth. They are different than the four beasts of Rev 4:6 and 14:3.
Yes, I understand and agree.

But how about the Beast of Rev 14:11? It's on Earth, right? When you said the Beasts in Ch 14, I wasn't sure if you meant 14:11's beast too.

Also, I still don't see how the elders, John and the four living creatures, as my translation uses for them, of Ch 4 and 14:3 being in Heaven, means that The Lamb and the 144,000 that follow Him wherever He goes (v 14:4) cannot be a vision of them on Mount Zion, Earth. At Jesus' return.
 
But how about the Beast of Rev 14:11? It's on Earth, right? When you said the Beasts in Ch 14, I wasn't sure if you meant 14:11's beast too.

The beast of Rev 14:11 is the same beast as Rev 13:1. It only exists on Earth.

Also, I still don't see how the elders, John and the four living creatures, as my translation uses for them, of Ch 4 and 14:3 being in Heaven, means that The Lamb and the 144,000 that follow Him wherever He goes (v 14:4) cannot be a vision of them on Mount Zion, Earth. At Jesus' return.

What is the purpose of them being on the earthly Mt. Zion? As I understand it, the resurrection at the last trump took place at the 7th trumpet of Revelation (pictured by the birth of the manchild in Rev 12:5. At that time, Yeshua took the resurrected saints to heaven. He won't return with them until Rev 19. So why would they be on Earth?​
 
jocor & chessman, I placed this thread in the Apologetics forum hoping for a broad discussion. I do not mind when you bring other scripture that you think is relevant into the discussion. In fact I really appreciated the scriptures that you provided from the book Leveticus jocor. With that said, I was waiting to see what you where you were going with the 144,000. But now you are beginning to discuss the beast. I saw no reason to respond to these posts, but I am not sure how the discussion of the Beast from Revelation has anything to do with this discussion and the Resurrection of Christ. If you wish to continue this line of discussion, would you please take it to a thread on the book of Revelation.

Thank you for understanding
 
Here is a Scripture that I feel is in line with the OP. In the absence of ezrider, I'll pick up the thread to keep it active. The Scripture is Ephesians 2:1-6. The verse that I'm interested in is Verse 6. I did not want to take it out of the context, so I included the other verses.

Ephesians 2:6 "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Here is a statement by John Gill of whom several of us like his comments....

"Hath raised us up together.... Which refers either to a spiritual resurrection, to a resurrection from a death in sin, to a spiritual life; and which is the effect of almighty power, and of rich grace and mercy; and in which Christ is concerned: he is the efficient cause of it, he raises the dead in this sense, and quickens whom he will; and his resurrection is the virtual cause of it; and also the exemplar, between which there is a great likeness; both bear the same name; both are a declaration of sonship; and both the first step to glory in Christ and in his people; and both are instances of the exceeding greatness of God's power: or it may refer to a corporeal resurrection, said to be already, because it is in faith and hope, and because of the certainty of it; and to be together with Christ, because of the conformity of it to his resurrection, and to the influence of which it is owing; and chiefly because that when Christ rose from the dead, all his people rose in him, and with him, as their head and representative, he being the firstfruits of them that slept; so called, in allusion to the firstfruits of the harvest under the law, which represented and sanctified the whole." Copied from e-Sword. (The bold words are my doing. to show emphasis on certain words).
 
Here is a Scripture that I feel is in line with the OP. In the absence of ezrider, I'll pick up the thread to keep it active. The Scripture is Ephesians 2:1-6. The verse that I'm interested in is Verse 6. I did not want to take it out of the context, so I included the other verses.

Ephesians 2:6 "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Here is a statement by John Gill of whom several of us like his comments....

"Hath raised us up together.... Which refers either to a spiritual resurrection, to a resurrection from a death in sin, to a spiritual life; and which is the effect of almighty power, and of rich grace and mercy; and in which Christ is concerned: he is the efficient cause of it, he raises the dead in this sense, and quickens whom he will; and his resurrection is the virtual cause of it; and also the exemplar, between which there is a great likeness; both bear the same name; both are a declaration of sonship; and both the first step to glory in Christ and in his people; and both are instances of the exceeding greatness of God's power: or it may refer to a corporeal resurrection, said to be already, because it is in faith and hope, and because of the certainty of it; and to be together with Christ, because of the conformity of it to his resurrection, and to the influence of which it is owing; and chiefly because that when Christ rose from the dead, all his people rose in him, and with him, as their head and representative, he being the firstfruits of them that slept; so called, in allusion to the firstfruits of the harvest under the law, which represented and sanctified the whole." Copied from e-Sword. (The bold words are my doing. to show emphasis on certain words).

It can also refer to both a spiritual resurrection and a corporeal resurrection through faith in its certainty.

What struck me was Gill's last statement:

"...he being the firstfruits of them that slept; so called, in allusion to the firstfruits of the harvest under the law, which represented and sanctified the whole."
When Yahweh accepted the firstfruits offering for Israel's harvest, it sanctified or set apart the entire harvest. It didn't matter that some stalks may have been broken or damaged or sickly or dying. The entire crop was harvested with Yahweh's blessing. So, too, in the resurrection. There were many broken, damaged, sick and dying believers that will be harvested in the resurrection because Yeshua was accepted by Yahweh as the firstfruits of the harvest of souls.
 
Here is a Scripture that I feel is in line with the OP. In the absence of ezrider, I'll pick up the thread to keep it active. The Scripture is Ephesians 2:1-6. The verse that I'm interested in is Verse 6. I did not want to take it out of the context, so I included the other verses.

Ephesians 2:6 "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Here is a statement by John Gill of whom several of us like his comments....

"Hath raised us up together.... Which refers either to a spiritual resurrection, to a resurrection from a death in sin, to a spiritual life; and which is the effect of almighty power, and of rich grace and mercy; and in which Christ is concerned: he is the efficient cause of it, he raises the dead in this sense, and quickens whom he will; and his resurrection is the virtual cause of it; and also the exemplar, between which there is a great likeness; both bear the same name; both are a declaration of sonship; and both the first step to glory in Christ and in his people; and both are instances of the exceeding greatness of God's power: or it may refer to a corporeal resurrection, said to be already, because it is in faith and hope, and because of the certainty of it; and to be together with Christ, because of the conformity of it to his resurrection, and to the influence of which it is owing; and chiefly because that when Christ rose from the dead, all his people rose in him, and with him, as their head and representative, he being the firstfruits of them that slept; so called, in allusion to the firstfruits of the harvest under the law, which represented and sanctified the whole." Copied from e-Sword. (The bold words are my doing. to show emphasis on certain words).

We are one with Christ through the new birth, in that we have been made to drink of the same Spirit.

We are joined to Him spiritually, so that if He is seated in heavenly places we are joined to Him there, and He is joined to us here.

for it is written -

He will never leave us nor forsake us.

However, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is future, whereby we will be "physically" resurrected from the dead, and will have an immortal body that will never die, and will shine like the sun, being just like the angels as sons of God; being sons of the resurrection.

That Day, we are all looking forward to.

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43

and again -

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

and again -

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54


JLB
 
Post removed. ToS 2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed (Buddhism is not a Christian faith)
View attachment 6131
http://m.csmonitor.com/Science/2015/0224/Inside-a-Buddha-statue-a-surprise-mummy-video

Kind of brings making man into an idol to a whole new level, huh?
Got to hand it to somebody though, that's a pretty funny trick.

Acts 7:41 (LEB) And they manufactured a calf in those days, and offered up a sacrifice to the idol, and began rejoicing in the works of their hands.
 
OK, if we are going to resurrect this thread about the resurrection, it needs to get back to the original topic, which is not Buddhism and it needs to follow the A&T Guidelines which everyone can read in the stickies at the top of the A&T Forum menu.
 
(Post removed, failure to follow moderators instructions posted directly above and failure to follow A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)
 
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(Post removed, failure to follow moderators instructions posted directly above and failure to follow A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)
 
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With this being Easter weekend, it is appropriate that we talk about the resurrection. And because it is the time of year that Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus, may they will begin to think upon His resurrection instead of their own.

In short summary of the OP, I questioned what do we believe about the resurrection in light of the scriptures primarily from Matt 22:23-33, Mark 12:18-27 and Luke 20:27-38 where Jesus is challenged by the Sadducees concerning the resurrection, as well as the story of Jesus and Martha when he raised Lazarus from the dead as found in John 11:24-26.

Within the passages as found in the synoptic Gospels Jesus is challenged by the Sadducees over a point of law by asking him a question about the resurrection. In his response Jesus tells them that they are in error, not knowing the scripture nor the Power of God. For God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. So I have to ask myself, do I hold it in error? Do I know the scripture as I should? What is this Power that he speaks of? And what does it mean that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living?

John 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In this passage it is pretty clear that Martha understood there to be a resurrection at the last day. Jesus neither confirms or denies that assertion, else he would have corrected her on that point, but he did not, so there is still a resurrection at the last day. But Jesus wanted her to see more than just the last day, and He call attention to Himself, that we should look upon him, saying I AM the Resurrection, and the Life.

John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is the Resurrection. This is what we should hope to understand: The resurrection of Christ and what that actually means for us and our Christian walk today. To know Jesus is to know the Father. There is a scripture somewhere that I just can’t seem to recall at the moment, but in essence talks about restoring a right relationship with God. Because in the resurrection of Christ, He has been made Lord of both the living and the dead.

Romans 14:7-9 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

This is what Jesus was referring to when he was challenged by the Sadducees, that they held the scripture in error because they did not understand their relationship to their Lord, not knowing they were dead to him. The death and resurrection of Jesus provides us with the means of having a true relationship with the Lord. For I Am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a God of the Living. He is the way, He is the Truth, and He is the Life.

Through the Resurrection of Jesus, we have the assurance of His risen life, so that through Him, and by Him we might come to know the Father in Christ. That we might come to have the knowledge of Christ in us, whereby though we still remain yet dead in our trespasses, we might yet live unto God through Christ and the power of His Resurrection.

When I asked what do we believe about the resurrection, for the most part, the first 10 pages of responses have demonstrated that people are more focused on their own resurrection at the last day, while few have thought to focus on the resurrected Christ.

With it being Easter, and the time we think of the resurrection of Christ, maybe we can turn our attention toward learning and understanding what the resurrection of Christ means for us in the here and now. What promises do we receive because of the power of His resurrection? What does the rest of the scripture declare unto us of His Resurrection and the power thereof?

For the sake of this thread going forward, while there is no denial of a final last day resurrection and raising of the dead. That is not the focus of the OP. The focus of the OP and the focus of this thread moving forward should be on the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, His ascension to the Father and to His throne, and what promises His resurrection assures for us today. Jesus gives us a clue when He tells the Sadducees that they knew not the scriptures nor the Power of God.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.
 
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John 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus said I am the Resurrection and the Life; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. We find written in the Epistles where Paul describes himself in this same light of the resurrection in Christ.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul tells us by his own example of how he lived by the resurrected life in Christ.
 
Hebrews 11:32-35 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.

This is interesting. What do you suppose this to be? That they might obtain a better resurrection. A better resurrection.

Let me give you a clue, its tied to the promises that we receive because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.

By the resurrection of Christ, we can obtain this promise. Do you know what the promise was?
 
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Jesus said to the Sadducees in Luke 20:34-38 that in the resurrection men would not marry but be as the messengers of God. Little more is said about this life other than what is written in Revelation 22 and there in verse 5 it says that the saints that inheritied the Holy City would rule as kings for ages of ages. Who will they rule over is the curiousity.
From a cursory reading of the last 3 chapter of Revelation it would appear that there are people living outside of the Holy City that will still be affected by an imperfect existence to the point where they'll need to approach the city to receive healing on perhaps a monthly basis (revelation 22:2). Is it possible that the saints will be ruling over these people for ages and ages?

What this guy said.
It is my belief that scripture speaks of multiple resurrections (NOT REINCARNATION), some in the past, and at least one more in the future. I believe the "1st Resurrection" written about in Revelation has already transpired and that it was the saints of the 1st century and perhaps the faithful of old who were party to this resurrection. They may very well represent what scripture calls the "firstfruits" and it is them who the 2nd death has no power over. For all the rest of humanity, I believe a future resurrection follows, but that will be a resurrection unto judgment when we will live and our destiny will be determined based on our resurrected lives and at that time we will be presented with the opportunity to be sealed by God's Holy Spirit just as the 1st century saints were. Those of us who follow after righteousness and are bless with the seal will be the one who are referred to as those who are resurrected to live, age lasting while the others will face judgment and the wrath of the living God.
 
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