What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[ezrider]

It is interesting how you told me you never studied the offerings, but now you are able to teach me and tell me I'm wrong. The offering of the firstfruits of barley precedes the barley harvest. Once the offering was accepted by YHWH, then the rest of the barley was harvested. The saints of old could only be resurrected (harvested) after the firstfruits were offered. Yeshua is that offering (1Co 15:20). Once he was accepted as the firstfruits by Yahweh, the rest of the barley could be harvested or resurrected (those mentioned in Mt 27:52-5). This is similar to the wheat harvest. First the 288,000 are resurrected, then the rest of the wheat harvest or saints in Messiah Yeshua can be resurrected. The first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal agricultural harvest did.

I was not trying to teach you or tell you that you were wrong. I asked you to teach me. As the student I was only trying to characterize or paraphrase what I understood. I was not questioning what you said at all.

 

[ezrider]

This offering of two loaves of wheat bread took place on Shavuot (Pentecost). The bread is baked with leaven which means it cannot represent Yeshua for leaven is symbolic of sin.

You see the leaven as sin because of the doctrine of the carnal mind that sin begets sin, and that is not to say that is incorrect. But in this case the leaven is the Holy Spirit which quickeneth and doth raise us up a new living creature. Leaven in and of itself is neither good or evil. It is something added to make it rise.

 

[JLB]

So with the physical resurrection of Christ from the grave, the saints of old who believed in those promises where brought forth from the grave and they were the firstfruits of of the Resurrection is Christ, Christ Being THE firstfruit of the Father. The saints resurrected in Christ that day such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the firstfruits of the Son offered to the Father. Then on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all those who believed, and they were brought into the Resurrection of Christ and was the second offering of the firstfruits in the Son offered to the Father. These would have been those who remained yet alive, such as Peter and John and the rest of the Apostles, and all those others for whom believed and the Spirit of the Lord fell upon.

Christ is the fruitsfruits of the Resurrection of the dead.

Christ alone has a Resurrected body.

Those whom are in heaven will return with Him to receive their Resurrected bodies at His Coming.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:14-17


...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.


and again -

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

...from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.


and again -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:8, 11-14


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Christ is the fruitsfruits of the Resurrection of the dead.

Christ alone has a Resurrected body.

So Lazarus was not resurrected? He was one called forth from the Grave by power given to the Son?

 

[ezrider]

The offering of the firstfruits of barley precedes the barley harvest. Once the offering was accepted by YHWH, then the rest of the barley was harvested.

Seems to me that Jesus offered himself as the holy and acceptable offering in his death and sacrifice prior to the prior to the sabbath. Being that His offering was acceptable to the LORD, as THE FIRST FRUIT. With Christ perfect sacrifice holy and acceptable before the Lord, being quickened in the Spirit and raised from the dead he became the High Priest and offered the fulness of the firstfruits with the saints that rose with him in his Resurrection.

 

[chessman]

Verse 3 shows the "voice" to be the 144,000 singing "before the throne" of YHWH which is in heaven.

Thanks for the reply.
I understand that the voices/singing came from Heaven. But it seems to me that John was shown the vision of events occuring on Earth. Specifically Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Note, I tread lightly here cause you may very well be right and I'm wrong. I'm just asking why you think what John saw was in Heaven.

I have been following your posting and appreciate them much. I find little to nothing that I disagree with in them.

But how about the events John saw in what is labeled as Chapter 13, were they occuring in Heaven too?

14:1 just seems to flow from the other Earthly events visioned in Chapter 13 as far as what John saw, is my point. Thus he clarifies that the voices he heard came "from Heaven".

Revelation 13:1, 8, 11-12, 14 Revelation 14:1(LEB) w/o verse #'s:

And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name. ...And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. ... And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he was speaking like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast on behalf of him, and he causes the earth and those who live in it to worship the first beast whose fatal wound had been healed. ...
And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it has been granted to him to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and yet lived. ... And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.​

 

[jocor]

You see the leaven as sin because of the doctrine of the carnal mind that sin begets sin, and that is not to say that is incorrect. But in this case the leaven is the Holy Spirit which quickeneth and doth raise us up a new living creature. Leaven in and of itself is neither good or evil. It is something added to make it rise.

Yeshua and Paul taught me that, not my carnal mind (Mt 16:6-12; 1Cor 5:6-7; Gal 5:9).

 

[jocor]

Seems to me that Jesus offered himself as the holy and acceptable offering in his death and sacrifice prior to the prior to the sabbath. Being that His offering was acceptable to the LORD, as THE FIRST FRUIT. With Christ perfect sacrifice holy and acceptable before the Lord, being quickened in the Spirit and raised from the dead he became the High Priest and offered the fulness of the firstfruits with the saints that rose with him in his Resurrection.

Yeshua offered himself as a sacrifice, not as a wave sheaf offering. He didn't fulfill the wave offering until after he was harvested/resurrected and then offered/waved.

 

[JLB]

So Lazarus was not resurrected? He was one called forth from the Grave by power given to the Son?

Raised from the dead. Yes.

Given a new incorruptible, immortal body that shines like the sun and will never die, and are equal to the angels? No.

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

and again

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Matthew 13:41-43

and again

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:51-54


JLB

 

[jocor]

Thanks for the reply.
I understand that the voices/singing came from Heaven. But it seems to me that John was shown the vision of events occurring on Earth. Specifically Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Note, I tread lightly here cause you may very well be right and I'm wrong. I'm just asking why you think what John saw was in Heaven.

While John was on the island of Patmos on Earth when he was shown the vision, he was caught up into heaven (not literally, but in the Spirit through the vision) and saw what was taking place in heaven (Rev 14:1). As I understand it, the entire vision of Revelation is being seen by John while he is in heaven via the Spirit. Even stuff he sees happening on Earth is happening while he is in heaven. He is standing before the Lamb in heaven as the Lamb opens the sealed scroll. For example, he is in heaven's throne room as he sees the red horse bring war on Earth. He is also in heaven's throne room as he sees stuff happening in heaven such as in Rev 4 & 14.

I have been following your posting and appreciate them much. I find little to nothing that I disagree with in them.

HalleluYah!

But how about the events John saw in what is labeled as Chapter 13, were they occuring in Heaven too?

14:1 just seems to flow from the other Earthly events visioned in Chapter 13 as far as what John saw, is my point. Thus he clarifies that the voices he heard came "from Heaven".

Revelation 13:1, 8, 11-12, 14 Revelation 14:1(LEB) w/o verse #'s:

And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name. ...And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. ... And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he was speaking like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast on behalf of him, and he causes the earth and those who live in it to worship the first beast whose fatal wound had been healed. ...
And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it has been granted to him to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and yet lived. ... And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.​

I believe everything in chapter 13 takes place on Earth.

If Rev 14:1-5 takes place on Earth, then how are we to understand that the 144,000 were singing that song "before the throne" and does that also mean the four beasts and the 24 elders were also on Earth with them?

 

[jocor]

(Post removed. ToS 2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed (Buddhism is not a Christian faith), A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding. (Your post and the scripture refference you offered have nothing to do with the topic at hand) and A&T Guidelines: Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture. Much of what you have said has no basis in scripture. Obadiah)

Is a post like my #111 supposed to have scripture references as well?

"So JLB, are you saying that Yeshua is not our atoning sacrifice?"​

 

[Butch5]

Which brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy:the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Acts 2:25-31 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Neither of these passages addresses the issue. Both passages speak of the resurrection, not state of the dead. In addition the word spiritual is an adjective not a noun. An adjective simply describes a noun or give qualities of that noun. Paul didn't say the resurrected body is a spirit. We know that the resurrected body is not a spirit because we have Jesus' example and words.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
(Luk 24:36-39 NKJ)

The resurrected Jesus was not a spirit.

 

[Chopper]

Here is a new thought on the "resurrection"....In my morning devotion this morning I was studying John Chapter 17. When I came to Verses 2 and 6, a new thought came to me. Please keep in mind that, JESUS IS THE RESURRECTION.

Verse 2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ....Also please remember that I am a Calvinist....I have always wondered with excitement what the nature of the beings were with Elohim before the foundations of the world. We must have existed in some form because if I understand correctly that the "elect" were brought from whatever we were perhaps in seed form, to be born into this world when, where, and to which family I would grow up in. Even the date of my conversion from sin to righteousness was determined by Almighty God.

Verse 6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

I believe in a great power of Elohim (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Notice what I have underlined, "Thine they were". These people who were somehow in seed form with God before the foundation of the world, by the great power of the RESURRECTED CHRIST thru the Father raised these people from seed form to be human believers (the elect of God) not only into this world, at a specific date, geographical place and with a specific family, and they became true believers in Christ Jesus and Jesus Kept them saved.

What I am saying is that a "resurrection" of sorts happened when the believers who the Father gave Jesus from seed form to human believers, they were raised to human life. From seed, made alive, and were believers.

This is just my thinking as I was studying this morning. Thanks for reading my thoughts and pondering the truth of it.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

 

[jocor]

Here is a new thought on the "resurrection"....In my morning devotion this morning I was studying John Chapter 17. When I came to Verses 2 and 6, a new thought came to me. Please keep in mind that, JESUS IS THE RESURRECTION.

Verse 2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ....Also please remember that I am a Calvinist....I have always wondered with excitement what the nature of the beings were with Elohim before the foundations of the world. We must have existed in some form because if I understand correctly that the "elect" were brought from whatever we were perhaps in seed form, to be born into this world when, where, and to which family I would grow up in. Even the date of my conversion from sin to righteousness was determined by Almighty God.

Verse 6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

I believe in a great power of Elohim (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Notice what I have underlined, "Thine they were". These people who were somehow in seed form with God before the foundation of the world, by the great power of the RESURRECTED CHRIST thru the Father raised these people from seed form to be human believers (the elect of God) not only into this world, at a specific date, geographical place and with a specific family, and they became true believers in Christ Jesus and Jesus Kept them saved.

What I am saying is that a "resurrection" of sorts happened when the believers who the Father gave Jesus from seed form to human believers, they were raised to human life. From seed, made alive, and were believers.

This is just my thinking as I was studying this morning. Thanks for reading my thoughts and pondering the truth of it.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Are you suggesting that we pre-existed in heaven as some kind of seed that was then placed in a human woman and later fertilized by a human male?

...if I understand correctly that the "elect" were brought from whatever we were perhaps in seed form, to be born into this world ...

What Scripture says that?

 

[JLB]

So JLB, are you saying that Yeshua is not our atoning sacrifice?"

I am saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what reconciles believers to God, because their sins are "taken away", not just covered over [atoned] as the blood of bulls and goats does.

However, the word atonement in the Hebrew does carry the idea of reconciliation, however the reason the OT saints were preserved in Paradise in the heart of the earth and not able to go to heaven, to God the Father, was their sins were not taken away, only covered.

It was only when Christ Jesus descended down to the heart of the earth and preached to them as well as those angels in Tartarus, that they were able to be fully reconciled to God and enter heaven.

So, my answer remains: Romans 5:11 is better translated as reconciliation rather than atonement.

And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:11


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Are you suggesting that we pre-existed in heaven as some kind of seed that was then placed in a human woman and later fertilized by a human male?



What Scripture says that?

To your first question I say yes, although I don't know the process that YHWH used....To the second question I say Ephesians 1:3-6 and the entire Chapter of Romans 9.

 

[jocor]

I am saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what reconciles believers to God, because their sins are "taken away", not just covered over [atoned] as the blood of bulls and goats does.

However, the word atonement in the Hebrew does carry the idea of reconciliation, however the reason the OT saints were preserved in Paradise in the heart of the earth and not able to go to heaven, to God the Father, was their sins were not taken away, only covered.

It was only when Christ Jesus descended down to the heart of the earth and preached to them as well as those angels in Tartarus, that they were able to be fully reconciled to God and enter heaven.

So, my answer remains: Romans 5:11 is better translated as reconciliation rather than atonement.

And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:11


JLB

Sorry for not being clear. The post you just replied to was meant for Obadiah, the moderator. I did not mean for you to answer that question a second time.

 

[jocor]

To your first question I say yes, although I don't know the process that YHWH used....To the second question I say Ephesians 1:3-6 and the entire Chapter of Romans 9.

Eph 1:3-6 is simply saying that YHWH foreknew who He would choose before they were born because He knows the future. He knew who would be born before creation and chose certain ones at that time. There is nothing that suggests a literal preexisting in that passage.

As for Romans 9, the seed spoken of is the seed of Abraham and Isaac. Their seed is the seed of men, not of YHWH. YHWH made it happen by opening up barren wombs. He did not put the seed in them from heaven.

 

[chessman]

As I understand it, the entire vision of Revelation is being seen by John while he is in heaven via the Spirit. Even stuff he sees happening on Earth is happening while he is in heaven

Yep.

If Rev 14:1-5 takes place on Earth, then how are we to understand that the 144,000 were singing that song "before the throne" and does that also mean the four beasts and the 24 elders were also on Earth with them?

Revelation 4:6 (LEB) And before the throne was something like a sea of glass, like crystal, ...​

I don't know why I think this way (i.e. I have no real Biblical proof) but I've always pictured, in my mind, that this glass sea was a window frame/picture frame looking down upon Earth and the events occuring 'down there' so-to-speak were viewed by John through this window frame. Thus when John says he saw 'Mount Zion', the sea, etc. in his vision and what occurs there, he was being shown what will occur on Earth. Yet he stood there by the throne. Make sense?

To me it's obvious that the four Beasts are on Earth. I mean that's what it says, right?

Are you equating the four Beasts of ch 6 and beyond with the four creatures of ch 4:6? I understand them to be in heaven worshiping God, but never the Beasts (horse riders).

 

[jocor]

To me it's obvious that the four Beasts are on Earth. I mean that's what it says, right?

Are you equating the four Beasts of ch 6 and beyond with the four creatures of ch 4:6? I understand them to be in heaven worshiping God, but never the Beasts (horse riders).

The four beasts and the elders of Rev 14:3 are the same ones seen in Rev 4:6-11 in the throneroom of heaven worshiping YHWH. They are clearly in heaven in both chapters. The four horses of Rev 6 are on Earth. They are different than the four beasts of Rev 4:6 and 14:3.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, YHWH Elohim Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​