What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[intrastate108]

(Post removed. ToS 2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed (Buddhism is not a Christian faith), A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding. (Your post and the scripture refference you offered have nothing to do with the topic at hand) and A&T Guidelines: Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture. Much of what you have said has no basis in scripture. Obadiah)

 

[Butch5]

Why were there souls in the heart of the earth, which is called Abraham's Bosom or Paradise and not in heaven when they physically died?

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, though His body was in the tomb.


JLB

I submit that the heart of the earth is the tomb. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that there is a place in the earth called Abraham's bosom.

 

[jocor]

Forgive me, but I am beginning to wonder if you have even read my posts or if you are only looking at the scriptures the I have reference to impart you own wisdom from them; And speaking of scripture references, you said, all the new testament writers quoted scripture, and yet you act as if I have not. I have quoted more scripture than you can fathom, but to hear it you first have to listen.

I wrote that in reply to your statement; "When I can express what is written in the Bible without the need to reference it or the need to quote it, then I can rest in the full assurance that the word of God has been written on my heart."

And in your comment about the new testament writers quoting the scripture I noticed something, when did they teach them? Where in all of the new testament writing can you find an example of the Apostles or Paul or John or any of the other writer for that matter where the sat down together that that might teach them how to read and interpret the scripture? I can not think of one instance off the top of my head. They may have quoted scripture, but its understanding was only through the power of the Spirit of the Lord. The human eye and the flesh of our heart can not understand such things. It remains hidden to us except it be reveal by the Spirit.

In Acts 2:25-35, Peter quotes two prophecies and expounds upon their meaning and fulfillment. In Acts 13:32-37, Paul quotes several prophecies and expounds upon their meaning and fulfillment. Practically the entire book of Hebrews is a commentary on the fulfillment of Scripture. I could go on.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

How can we do any of these things without interpreting and teaching Scripture?

Of course it takes the Holy Spirit to give the proper meaning or interpretation, but that should not prevent us from quoting Scripture as the Apostles did.

 

[jocor]

Christ is the firstfruits of those Resurrected from the dead, afterward all those who are His will be Resurrected at His Coming.

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:4


The 144,000 of this passage were not among the Resurrected, but were the firstfruits of the redeemed from among men.


Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. Romans 16:5

Epaenetus was of the firstfruits of Achaia to come to Christ.


JLB

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.
​

The scene takes place in heaven after they were resurrected at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 11:15.

 

[JLB]

(Post deleted. Response to a removed post. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

I submit that the heart of the earth is the tomb. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that there is a place in the earth called Abraham's bosom.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:8-9


JLB

 

[JLB]

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.
​

The scene takes place in heaven after they were resurrected at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 11:15.

These were on earth and were protected during the tribulation.

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: Revelation 7:1-4


JLB

 

[jocor]

These were on earth and were protected during the tribulation.

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: Revelation 7:1-4


JLB

The 144,000 of Rev 7 are not the same as the 144,000 of Rev 14. They are two different groups totaling 288,000 to fulfill the type of David's kingdom in which king David had 288,000 men that served him throughout the year (1 Chr 27:1-15). King David is a type of King Yeshua, the anti-type. Just as these servants in 1 Chr.27:1 served King David in all matters of his kingdom, the 288,000 firstfruits serve King Yeshua in all matters of his kingdom.

 

[ezrider]

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:8-9


JLB

Thanks JLB for that scripture reference.

Ephesians 4:7-10 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

1 Peter 3:18-24 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So in his death he went and preached unto the spirits held in prison. I would guess that he made himself known to the saints of old, who lived by faith according to the promise (Heb 11:8-10, Heb 11:16). So with the physical resurrection of Christ from the grave, the saints of old who believed in those promises where brought forth from the grave and they were the firstfruits of of the Resurrection is Christ, Christ Being THE firstfruit of the Father. The saints resurrected in Christ that day such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the firstfruits of the Son offered to the Father. Then on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all those who believed, and they were brought into the Resurrection of Christ and was the second offering of the firstfruits in the Son offered to the Father. These would have been those who remained yet alive, such as Peter and John and the rest of the Apostles, and all those others for whom believed and the Spirit of the Lord fell upon.

 

[ezrider]

jocor, you had mentioned a page or two back in this discussion about the offering of the firstfruits from the book of Leviticus. As I told you before, I have never studied the offerings under the law, it was never an interest of mine. I never knew there were two offerings of the firstruits until you brought it to my attention. Because you have studied this, could you please share a little more of what you know about these offings? What were the two offerings and what was significant about each. I would really like to hear.

Thanks

 

[chessman]

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, ...
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, ...
​

The scene takes place in heaven after they were resurrected at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 11:15.

If this scene takes place in Heaven why does John say he saw them on Mount Zion and heard a voice coming from Heaven?

 

[Butch5]

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:8-9


JLB

That passage says nothing about Abraham's bosom. It also doesn't define what the lower parts of the earth are. The Greek word "ghay" is also translated land.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks JLB for that scripture reference.

Ephesians 4:7-10 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

1 Peter 3:18-24 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So in his death he went and preached unto the spirits held in prison. I would guess that he made himself known to the saints of old, who lived by faith according to the promise (Heb 11:8-10, Heb 11:16). So with the physical resurrection of Christ from the grave, the saints of old who believed in those promises where brought forth from the grave and they were the firstfruits of of the Resurrection is Christ, Christ Being THE firstfruit of the Father. The saints resurrected in Christ that day such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the firstfruits of the Son offered to the Father. Then on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all those who believed, and they were brought into the Resurrection of Christ and was the second offering of the firstfruits in the Son offered to the Father. These would have been those who remained yet alive, such as Peter and John and the rest of the Apostles, and all those others for whom believed and the Spirit of the Lord fell upon.

He preached to the spirits in prison after the resurrection. Look at the order that Peter states in the passage.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1Pe 3:1 KJV)

 

[ezrider]

He preached to the spirits in prison after the resurrection. Look at the order that Peter states in the passage.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1Pe 3:1 KJV)

Look at the scripture a little closer.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

He was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit, so that his body saw no corruption (Acts 2:27), and in the spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison, and they came forth with him in His Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Look at the scripture a little closer.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

He was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit, so that his body saw no corruption (Acts 2:27), and in the spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison, and they came forth with him in His Resurrection.

The passage says nothing about "in the spirit, it says having been put to death but quickened "BY" the Spirit. That would be the Spirit of God that raised Christ from the dead.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:1 KJV)
There's nothing in the passage about Jesus being a spirit.

 

[jocor]

jocor, you had mentioned a page or two back in this discussion about the offering of the firstfruits from the book of Leviticus. As I told you before, I have never studied the offerings under the law, it was never an interest of mine. I never knew there were two offerings of the firstruits until you brought it to my attention. Because you have studied this, could you please share a little more of what you know about these offings? What were the two offerings and what was significant about each. I would really like to hear.

Thanks

Lev 23:10 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest.
Lev 23:11 'He shall wave the sheaf before YHWH for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
​

This is the "wave sheaf offering" of barley. Its reaping represents Yeshua's resurrection which occurred at the exact time the Jews traditionally reaped it. Its waving represents Yeshua's ascension which took place about the same time the Jews traditionally waved it (9:00 am if I recall correctly).

Lev 23:15 'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths.
Lev 23:16 'You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:17 'You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to YHWH.
Lev 23:18 'Along with the bread you shall present seven one year old male lambs without defect, and a bull of the herd and two rams; they are to be a burnt offering to YHWH, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to YHWH.
Lev 23:19 'You shall also offer one male goat for a sin offering and two male lambs one year old for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Lev 23:20 'The priest shall then wave them with the bread of the first fruits for a wave offering with two lambs before YHWH; they are to be holy to YHWH for the priest.
Lev 23:21 'On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
​

This offering of two loaves of wheat bread took place on Shavuot (Pentecost). The bread is baked with leaven which means it cannot represent Yeshua for leaven is symbolic of sin. These two loaves represent the two groups of 144,000 that I mentioned in post #148. I believe the waving of the bread represents the resurrection of these two groups of 144,000.

 

[ezrider]

The passage says nothing about "in the spirit, it says having been put to death but quickened "BY" the Spirit. That would be the Spirit of God that raised Christ from the dead.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:1 KJV)
There's nothing in the passage about Jesus being a spirit.

Which brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy:the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Acts 2:25-31 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[jocor]

If this scene takes place in Heaven why does John say he saw them on Mount Zion and heard a voice coming from Heaven?

It is the heavenly Mount Zion spoken of in Heb 12:22. Verse 3 shows the "voice" to be the 144,000 singing "before the throne" of YHWH which is in heaven. The "four beasts" and the 24 "elders" were also present. They were mentioned in REv 4 which takes place in the throne room of YHWH.

 

[ezrider]

Lev 23:10 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest.
Lev 23:11 'He shall wave the sheaf before YHWH for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
​

This is the "wave sheaf offering" of barley. Its reaping represents Yeshua's resurrection which occurred at the exact time the Jews traditionally reaped it. Its waving represents Yeshua's ascension which took place about the same time the Jews traditionally waved it (9:00 am if I recall correctly).

Lev 23:15 'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths.
Lev 23:16 'You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:17 'You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to YHWH.
Lev 23:18 'Along with the bread you shall present seven one year old male lambs without defect, and a bull of the herd and two rams; they are to be a burnt offering to YHWH, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to YHWH.
Lev 23:19 'You shall also offer one male goat for a sin offering and two male lambs one year old for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Lev 23:20 'The priest shall then wave them with the bread of the first fruits for a wave offering with two lambs before YHWH; they are to be holy to YHWH for the priest.
Lev 23:21 'On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
​

This offering of two loaves of wheat bread took place on Shavuot (Pentecost). The bread is baked with leaven which means it cannot represent Yeshua for leaven is symbolic of sin. These two loaves represent the two groups of 144,000 that I mentioned in post #148. I believe the waving of the bread represents the resurrection of these two groups of 144,000.

Thank you very much for that. The first offering, or barley offing would have been resurrected saints under the old covenant who lived by faith according to the promises made with Abraham. The wheat offering would have represented the firstfruits of the new covenant kingdom, which arrived with the birth of Jesus. Being that this was the wheat offering, it brings new meaning to the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I wonder if in any way you might see the stoning of Stephen as one of these other offerings? Huh.

Thanks again.

 

[jocor]

Thank you very much for that. The first offering, or barley offing would have been resurrected saints under the old covenant who lived by faith according to the promises made with Abraham. The wheat offering would have represented the firstfruits of the new covenant kingdom, which arrived with the birth of Jesus. Being that this was the wheat offering, it brings new meaning to the parable of the wheat and the tares.

I wonder if in any way you might see the stoning of Stephen as one of these other offerings? Huh.

Thanks again.

It is interesting how you told me you never studied the offerings, but now you are able to teach me and tell me I'm wrong. The offering of the firstfruits of barley precedes the barley harvest. Once the offering was accepted by YHWH, then the rest of the barley was harvested. The saints of old could only be resurrected (harvested) after the firstfruits were offered. Yeshua is that offering (1Co 15:20). Once he was accepted as the firstfruits by Yahweh, the rest of the barley could be harvested or resurrected (those mentioned in Mt 27:52-5). This is similar to the wheat harvest. First the 288,000 are resurrected, then the rest of the wheat harvest or saints in Messiah Yeshua can be resurrected. The first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal agricultural harvest did.