What do you think?

[jgredline]

I'm sorry, I respect you jred - but I do not believe in fire and brimstone teachings. God is much too loving and I just cannot fathom him leaving his own children to be tortured in that manner. The book I had read from Mary K. Baxter teaches this fire and brimstone way of hell and it is just too much. I am left believing that the torture is eternal death and the torture is symbolic in the way of being separated from God for eternity.

I guess we will all find out in the end :

No problem....I do realize that it is a difficult concept to accept, but I assure you, its real....But don't take my word for it, lets take a look at what the bible teaches on the matter. Solo just posted some really great info and we will address some of drews post and questions....Just read and follow along and ask your questions.

 

[jgredline]

Now I have a question for you: Did Paul lie when he wrote:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Drew
The Apostle paul was emphatically preaching the truth here....Lets take a close look at the word death in this verse, in context....

Romans 6:23
23 τα γαρ οψωνια της αμαρτιας θανατος το δε χαρισμα του θεου ζωη αιωνιος εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων 1550 TR

The Greek word that Paul used here is for death is θανατος
Lets take a look at the definition of this word...

[thanatos /than·at·os/] n m. From 2348; TDNT 3:7; TDNTA 312; GK 2505 and together with Strongs 1 as GK 115; 119 occurrences; AV translates as “death†117 times, and “deadly†twice. 1 the death of the body. 1a that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended. 1b with the implied idea of future misery in hell. 1b1 the power of death. 1c since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin. 2 metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,. 2a the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell. 3 the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell. 4 in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.

 

[jgredline]

Jude 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Is smoke rising from Edom today?

Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?

Drew….Again Context, context, context…….If one were to read verse 7 ‘’alone’’ one would think that the passage is speaking of physical cities…
First of all the cities of Soddom and Gamora are ‘’illustrations’’ as they are in 20 or so other passages through out the scriptures…Secondly what Jude is saying here is that the ‘’souls’’ of those folks who were in soddom and Gamora are facing the same eternal condemnation for basically the same sin of homosexuality as the Demons in Gen 6….
When one reads it in context and see Verse 5 and 6 this becomes clear…..

Jesus was not kidding around or using hell as an example or as a methaphore.....No he said what he meant and he meant what he said......


Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

 

[Drew]

1a that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended. 1b with the implied idea of future misery in hell.

There is no doubt that the writer of the Strong's concordance shares your conceptualization. But an appeal to authority does not really do that much work to establish the correctness of a position. We now know that the author of Strong's shares your view. I am not sure how helpful this fact is in the absence of an actual argument.

Let the interested reader examine the following Scriptures and see what is being said about the fate of the unredeemed:


Psalm 145:20:“The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroyâ€Â

Psalm 101:8 “I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lordâ€Â

Psalm 37:38 - “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut offâ€Â

Psalm 92:7 “When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed foreverâ€Â

Proverbs 13:13 - “Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.â€Â

Proverbs 10:29 “The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.â€Â

Philippians 3:19 “Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly thingsâ€Â

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.â€Â

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

Proverbs 19:9 “A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perishâ€Â

Luke 13:3 “Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perishâ€Â

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting lifeâ€Â

2 Thessalonians 2:10 “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be savedâ€Â

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fireâ€Â

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barnâ€Â

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.â€Â

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.â€Â

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt upâ€Â

Isaiah 1:28 “And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.â€Â

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no moreâ€Â

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.â€Â

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.â€Â

Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversariesâ€Â

Psalm 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 “For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut offâ€Â

Isaiah 33:12 “And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fireâ€Â

Proverbs 2:22 “But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of itâ€Â

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soulâ€Â

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and periditon of ungodly menâ€Â

Matthew 3:12. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaffwith unquenchable fire."

Nahum 1:9-10 "What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

It has been said that the annihilationist twist the Scriptures. Which view does a "plain reading" of the above texts actually support in respect to the fate of the lost? Who is really doing the twisting. Let the reader make his / her own judgment.

 

[jgredline]

Drew
You asked me about Romans 6;23 and I provided you with the actual words that is used in the Greek text.....I also knew you would come back and claim a ''Strongs bias''...But the fact is this...

There is another Greek word that Paul ''could'' have used if he meant destroy

That word is thanatoo
Here is what strongs has to say about this word....that Paul could have used but did not....because he also meant what he said and he said what he meant....

thanatoo /than·at·o·o/] v. From 2288; TDNT 3:21; TDNTA 312; GK 2506; 11 occurrences; AV translates as “put to death†four times, “cause to be put to death†three times, “kill†twice, “become dead†once, and “mortify†once. 1 to put to death. 2 metaph. 2a to make to die i.e. destroy, render extinct. 2b by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something).

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.


Drew...so again and I repeat....
The Apostle paul was emphatically preaching the truth here....Lets take a close look at the word death in this verse, in context....

Romans 6:23
23 τα γαρ οψωνια της αμαρτιας θανατος το δε χαρισμα του θεου ζωη αιωνιος εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων 1550 TR

The Greek word that Paul used here is for death is thanatos NOT thanatoo

I would also be happy to scan the definition of both words out of my Hebrew, Aramiac and Greek dictionary as well as my vines Lexicon and you will see they say the same thing....There is no bias here...Of course you claim a mass concpiracy...Perhaps 1 or 2 people would believe you.

 

[jgredline]

I think I will move this to opologetics where it should belong now....

Perhaps VIC can mod this thread to make sure we stay on topic and answer the questions.

 

[Solo]

Where the annihilationists err is when they cannot recognize the Scriptures that denote death and destruction of the physical body on earth, and the state of the Soul in Sheol/Hades waiting for the first or second resurrection of the body. Those that are resurrected in the first resurrection will have their born again soul combined with their new incorrupt, immortal body; while those that are resurrected in the second resurrection will be cast into the lake of fire with Sheol/Hades and death. Another simple teaching made complicated by those who wish to rely on a bias self interpretation rather than the interpretation of the Spirit of God.

 

[Guest]

Drew
You asked me about Romans 6;23 and I provided you with the actual words that is used in the Greek text.....I also knew you would come back and claim a ''Strongs bias''...But the fact is this...

There is another Greek word that Paul ''could'' have used if he meant destroy

That word is thanatoo
Here is what strongs has to say about this word....that Paul could have used but did not....because he also meant what he said and he said what he meant....

thanatoo /than·at·o·o/] v. From 2288; TDNT 3:21; TDNTA 312; GK 2506; 11 occurrences; AV translates as “put to death†four times, “cause to be put to death†three times, “kill†twice, “become dead†once, and “mortify†once. 1 to put to death. 2 metaph. 2a to make to die i.e. destroy, render extinct. 2b by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something).

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.

JR - you say that Paul "could" have used a different word and that word being "thanatoo" nor "thanatos". I realize that it has been some time since I took Greek - but how could Paul have used a VERB (thanatoo) for a NOUN (thanatos)?

You cannot make the arguement that Paul could have used "thanatoo" instead, when "thanatoo" is not even the right part of speech.

 

[jgredline]

JR - you say that Paul "could" have used a different word and that word being "thanatoo" nor "thanatos". I realize that it has been some time since I took Greek - but how could Paul have used a VERB (thanatoo) for a NOUN (thanatos)?

You cannot make the arguement that Paul could have used "thanatoo" instead, when "thanatoo" is not even the right part of speech.

Alone
You are correct and I did think of that after I had posted it. Paul would have had to re-word the scripture in order to use thanatoo....Which adds even more credibility to what I said in that paul was emphatic about what he said...Thanks alone....

By the way. do you hold to the doctrine of annihalation?

 

[Guest]

Alone
You are correct and I did think of that after I had posted it. Paul would have had to re-word the scripture in order to use thanatoo....Which adds even more credibility to what I said in that paul was emphatic about what he said...Thanks alone....

You might want to hold onto the thanks, atleast for now :D

Paul would only have had to reword the verse, if the understanding of 'thanatos' is as you suggest it is. Thanatoo and Thanastos are merely different parts of speech, but that doesn't mean they have different meanings as to the finality of death.

In other words, it is possile that they both mean the same 'finality' of death.

By the way. do you hold to the doctrine of annihalation?

One of the danagers of this view is that it can lead to nihilism all together.

My concern is the desire to spend eternity in the presence of the Lord,

 

[jgredline]

Alone
None the less the scripture is what it is....Paul wrote what he meant and he meant what he wrote.....Just because it does not fit into ''your'' theology, it does not change the fact of what it says and what it means.....

One of the danagers of this view is that it can lead to nihilism all together.

My concern is the desire to spend eternity in the presence of the Lord,

By this answer you gave and by the others you have posted, I am 99% certain you hold to the false doctrine of annihalation.....Which coming from you, I am not surprised....Now if you are not an annihalist, let me know and I will retract my statement....You could have used a simple yes or no answer, but like most folk who believe in falsehoods, you try and dance around the question....I have seen your type before...

 

[Guest]

Yes - Scripture is what it is - and it means what is says. However, you have not made a convincing arguement as to the meaning of "thanatos". Your only arguement thus far was sloppy at best.

I would much prefer to see you put together a more convincing arguement. Especially since, I do not hold to annihilism. I guess what I was saying was that your defense against annihilism was, well.. weak.

That is why I said, you might not want to thank me just yet. In other words, I am questioning your arguements, not because I believe in annihilism, but because I want to see you defend your position better.

Lastly - I do not like to be pegged... I would much rather live out my faith, that get caught in the danger of formulas and creeds. That is why I no longer hold to Calvinsim - most Calvinists are too busy running around trying to 'convert' others to Calvinism that preaching the Word of God and being a witness to a lost generation.

Sorry - I like to live out my faith with right actions, rather than be so focused on attempting to create 'right doctrines' that it becomes a substitute for living out faith.

 

[jgredline]

Yes - Scripture is what it is - and it means what is says. However, you have not made a convincing arguement as to the meaning of "thanatos". Your only arguement thus far was sloppy at best.

This is only your opinion and your opinion does not mean anything to me. Prove me wrong with the scriptures...and keep them in context....

Like I said....I have seen your type before....

 

[Guest]

Now if you are not an annihalist, let me know and I will retract my statement....

I would appreciate it if you would keep your word.

I have seen your type before...

You know nothing about me or my 'type'... I take people at their word (Mt 5:37), as I would hope people take me at mine. There is no need to try to figure someone out by their 'type' - it brings along negative connotations that are neither healthy nor wise.

Also, I have no reason to prove you 'wrong'. I agree with your position - I just felt your arguement against annhilism was sloppy.

What I am suggesting is that you need to have a better arguement against annhilism that thanatos and thanatoo.

 

[jgredline]

You know nothing about me or my 'type'... I take people at their word (Mt 5:37), as I would hope people take me at mine. There is no need to try to figure someone out by their 'type' - it brings along negative connotations that are neither healthy nor wise.

Also, I have no reason to prove you 'wrong'. I agree with your position - I just felt your arguement against annhilism was sloppy.

What I am suggesting is that you need to have a better arguement against annhilism that thanatos and thanatoo.

I retract my statement that you are an annihalist...I opologize for that.
Now as far as my argument against annihalism, that one scripture is not my argument....You are assuming it is, but infact I was mearly answering Drews question.....I suggest you read here....to view my position and arguments...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=26893

and

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 09&start=0

 

[Guest]

JR - much better arguements are laid out in the links you provided.

Just as you were responding to Drews comments, I was only responding to your post - I did not realize there was a 'debate' post and another thread on the same subject elsewhere.

 

[jgredline]

JR - much better arguements are laid out in the links you provided.

Just as you were responding to Drews comments, I was only responding to your post - I did not realize there was a 'debate' post and another thread on the same subject elsewhere.

Alone
Thank you. Incase your wondering these debates have been going on for a long time by differant folk and not one can put up a biblically sound argument to support annihalation.

 

[JohnR]

Sheol is the Hebrew word equivalent of the Greek word Hades which is translated a number of ways in the various English translations.

You should run a search on the word destruction. You will find it used a lot more then the word Sheol.

 

[Solo]

You should run a search on the word destruction. You will find it used a lot more then the word Sheol.

I suspect that destruction is used many times and refers to the body in the physical domain, and the soul/spirit in the spiritual domain. The destruction of the body, soul, and spirit is for a long, long time. The difference is that the ole body is made of the physical temporal substances which will perish, but the soul and spirit exist apart from the physical realm and remain forever.

 

[Drew]

Prove me wrong with the scriptures...and keep them in context....

What about the lengthy list of scriptures that I posted? Collectively they form a powerful case that the wicked are destroyed, consumed, done away with, eliminated etc.