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What do you think?

On the subject of the meaning of the Greek word "thanatos":

My understanding is that this is the Greek word for death. Not the Greek word for "physical death accompanied by eternal conscious torment". Nevertheless, I am in no position to claim a literalist position -that "death always means death". Why? Because I fully admit that the annihilationist position that I hold requires that words like "eternal" sometimes do not really mean "forever". Fine

Two points:

1. If the proponent of the "eternal torment" position uses the "eternal always means forever" argument based on an argument that we always need to take words at their literal meaning, he then gives up the right to claim that "thanatos" means something other than death. One cannot have things both ways.

2. I suggest that I and others have provided compelling Scriptural reasons why indeed the word "eternal" does not really mean "without end" in the context of punishment of the wicked (e.g. its use in Isaiah 34 in reference to Edom and its use in Jude in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah in the book of Jude). In those cases, we basically know that "eternal" does not mean "without end" precisely because neither Edom nor S& are burning today. I will address jg's counterargument to Jude 7 in an upcoming post. What Scriptural evidence can the "eternal tormet" supporter provide to support the case that "death doesn't mean death" in Romans 6:23?
 
jgredline said:
Alone
Thank you. Incase your wondering these debates have been going on for a long time by differant folk and not one can put up a biblically sound argument to support annihalation.

Oh please, jg. Without any exegesis at all, the weight of scripture supports annihilation. You choose to hold on to eternal torment at all costs and refuse to budge. That is why you feel it is not 'biblically sound'. When you take Revelation 14,20 and Mark 9 as literal language and sound theology, it is easy to not see the reality of the rest of scripture that fully and clearly interprets the metaphor.

The case has been sound over and over and over. Hashing out the same eisigetical nonsense that you and others have been doing trying hard to make it sound right doesn't change the weight and arguments that Drew, myself, Sputnik, CP_Mike and others have put forth.

Perhaps you should read Philip Hughes, Edward Fudge, John Wenham (who promoted eternal torment all his life and regretted it much later on vowing to try and undo what he did), Clark Pinnock and John Stott's on this subject? They are all well respected evangelical and reformed scholars (why, not one cult leader in the midst of them!). Why don't you try and read their logic in this matter as they are very convincing and abandoned simply on biblical basis alone and embraced annihilation eternal torment.
 
jgredline said:
Drew said:
Jude 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Is smoke rising from Edom today?

Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?

Drew….Again Context, context, context…….If one were to read verse 7 ‘’alone’’ one would think that the passage is speaking of physical cities…
First of all the cities of Soddom and Gamora are ‘’illustrations’’ as they are in 20 or so other passages through out the scriptures…Secondly what Jude is saying here is that the ‘’souls’’ of those folks who were in soddom and Gamora are facing the same eternal condemnation for basically the same sin of homosexuality as the Demons in Gen 6….
When one reads it in context and see Verse 5 and 6 this becomes clear…..

This argument is very questionable. Here is the actual text of Jude 5-7:

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own homeâ€â€these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

jg is claiming that S&G are "illustrations" - that Jude is not talking about the literal towns but rather about the souls of their occupants. That's fair game, at least for now. But now I will remind the reader of the following statement made by jgredline in this thread:

jgredline said:
I would encourage you to do a study on Luke 16....Notice that Jesus uses the names of real folk....Keep in mind that this is NOT a parable....

I trust that the problem is clear. In the past jg and others have argued that Luke 16 is not a parable because a "real name" was used. Well, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? These were real towns. Based on past arguments that Luke 16 is to be taken as a literal account of a real event specifically because Lazarus is mentioned by name, why should we not apply the same arguments to Jude 7 and conclude that Jude is talking about the literal Sodom & Gomorrah and not turn the event into a parable or "illustration" of the fate of the souls of the towns' inhabitants?

Even forgetting this issue of consistency, I see no reason from the Jude text to think that Jude is not referring to the real towns. After all, Jude certainly seems to be referring to the real "in this world" deliverance of the Hebrews from Egypt in verse 5.
 
Drew and or Guibox, does not matter which one of you guys.

How is about I make this simple for you guys and we take it to the debate forum....If both of you wish to debate then I am fairly sure solo would be happy to take on either of you....What say you? If you accept, simply post your OP in the debate forum and address it to whom you would like to debate....Keep in mind that we will be using the whole counsel of God and scripture in context...Not this single out of context scriptures you guys like to use for hit and runs....What say thou?
 
jgredline said:
Drew and or Guibox, does not matter which one of you guys.

How is about I make this simple for you guys and we take it to the debate forum....If both of you wish to debate then I am fairly sure solo would be happy to take on either of you....What say you? If you accept, simply post your OP in the debate forum and address it to whom you would like to debate....Keep in mind that we will be using the whole counsel of God and scripture in context...Not this single out of context scriptures you guys like to use for hit and runs....What say thou?
I think this debate is important, but I think that moving it to the "debate" area will only serve to reduce the readership - I think people are not that interested in a debate that is not "open to all".

Why not just keep the discussion going in this more "open" forum? Then the "lurkers" are free to participate if they see fit. I want the discussion to get as much exposure as possible and I think sending it to the debate area will "annihilate" it....
 
Drew said:
I think this debate is important, but I think that moving it to the "debate" area will only serve to reduce the readership - I think people are not that interested in a debate that is not "open to all".

Why not just keep the discussion going in this more "open" forum? Then the "lurkers" are free to participate if they see fit. I want the discussion to get as much exposure as possible and I think sending it to the debate area will "annihilate" it....

Drew
Why am I NOT surprised by your answer?

Rather than try and learn the truth for yourself, you are busy trying to look good in front of an audiance....atleast this is what I believe ....Those folks who are trully interested in this can follow in the debate forum just as easy.....
 
jgredline said:
Drew
Why am I NOT surprised by your answer?

Rather than try and learn the truth for yourself, you are busy trying to look good in front of an audiance....atleast this is what I believe ....Those folks who are trully interested in this can follow in the debate forum just as easy.....
How is that you conclude that I want to "look good" as compared with the motivation to ensure that as many people as possible will benefit from, and contribute to, the exchange of ideas?

I just think that the debate thread is where things go to become "one on one".
 
Consider the following from the New Testament:

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

I am pretty confident that there are a number of other texts where phrases similar to "everlasting destruction" are used.

I have no objection to the idea that sometimes words are not intended to have their literal meaning. For example, the Isaiah 34 text which refers to smoke rising "forever" from Edom. However, I would think that a believer in "eternal torment" would have to re-define "destruction" just too much to be plausible in order to reconcile the Thess text with the "eternal torment" view.

In short, it is one thing to argue, as I indeed would, that "forever" can be used poetically to connote a finite duration rather than an infinite one. It is quite another to assert that destruction, a process whose very nature implies degradation over time, can continue literally forever.

If something is undergoing a process of destruction, how can it not ultimately be reduced to nothingness? This is a significant problem with the assertion that "everlasting destruction" is consistent with eternal torment. Destruction, by its very nature, will ultimately lead to nothingness. So it is very difficult indeed to maintain that humans can be subject to "everlasting destruction" that does not ultimately annihilate them.

While our culture is not the same as the Hebrew one, we often use the word "forever" when we do not really mean forever as in "I will love you forever" - atheists say this all the time. I think that this illustrates a certain fluidity in the use of the word "forever", at least in our culture. I want to go on record as saying that, for the present, I am only speculating that a similar "looseness" in the use of words like "forever" may have been part of the Hebrew culture (although I do think that texts like Isaiah 34:9-10 and Jude 7 strongly support this position, specifically in respect to acts of destruction).

On the other hand, I do not think that a phrase like "everlasting destruction" can be subject to the same "looseness", once one commits to believing that "forever really means forever". The reason is that all plausble interpretations of what it means to destroy something involve a movement toward achieving a state of nothingness for that thing.

And that process cannot go on forever - sooner or later there will be nothing left to keep on destroying.
 
"jgredlineKeep in mind that we will be using the whole counsel of God and scripture in context...Not this single out of context scriptures you guys like to use for hit and runs....What say thou?
:-D "Hit and run", jg?

It is you who put your entire stock on 'hit and run' texts and completely ignore the 'whole counsel'.

1) 'souls under the altar' which doesn't jive AT ALL with the meaning of 'nephesh'

2) Revelation 14:10,11 which is highly metaphorical and uses language of destruction which is not limited to two bible verses but permeates throughout the whole of scripture.

3) Trying to make 'death' destruction' and 'perish' apply only to the body and to make it 'eternal torment of the soul' when the language is never used in that way to denote the fate of the wicked ANYWHERE in scripture.

4) Completely ignoring the dozens and dozens of texts I have put forth that support annihilation to your three (if you really want to include an eseigetical interpetation of Matthew 25:46)

Your audacity knows no boundaries, my friend.

As for debating, I am in agreement with Drew for the time being. Provided that the topic is limited to one area at a time and not an amalgamation of two or three concepts at a time I may reconsider at a later date
 
Drew
Where you and guibox make a fatal error in your theology is that you believe man to be Monistic in nature when infact we are a dichotomy if your a non believer or a Trichotomy if your born again....So when Paul is saying


2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

He is correct...The ''physical body'' will be destroyed, but the Soul if your not born again will go to eternal torment and if you are born again the soul and spirit will be with Christ forever (eternaly)....

This is the only way the bible does not contradict itself....and it makes perfect sense.....

Lets take a closer look....
Jesus tells us not to fear those who “kill the body but cannot kill the soul,†but that we should rather “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hellâ€Â. Here the word “soul†clearly must refer to the part of a person that exists after death. It cannot mean “person†or “life,†for it would not make sense to speak of those who “kill the body but cannot kill the person,†or who “kill the body but cannot kill the life,†unless there is some aspect of the person that lives on after the body is dead...... When Jesus talks about “soul and body†he is clearly talking about the entire person even though he does not mention “spirit†as a separate component.
The word “soul†stands for the entire nonphysical part of man.

Now lets take a look at Spirit for a second....†Paul wants the Corinthian church to deliver an erring brother to Satan “for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesusâ€Â.
It is not that Paul has forgotten the salvation of the man’s soul as well; he simply uses the word “spirit†to refer to the whole of the person’s immaterial existence.....

James says that “the body apart from the spirit is dead†, but mentions nothing about a separate soul.....sHALL i keep going?

When Paul speaks of growth in personal holiness, he approves the woman who is concerned with “how to be holy in body and spirit†, and he suggests that this covers the whole of the person’s life.
Even more explicit is 2 Corinthians 7:1, where he says, “let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.â€Â
Cleansing ourselves from defilement of the “soul†or of the “spirit†covers the whole immaterial side of our existence

Drew
I will leave you with this simple scripture.....

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
 
Guibox
I am not surprised you don't want to debate....I would not want to debate if I were in your shoes either.....Why is it that ''ONLY'' CULTS hold to annihalation?

Your an SDA right?
 
jgredline said:
Why is it that ''ONLY'' CULTS hold to annihalation? Your an SDA right?
One of the hallmark signs of having a weak argument is the need to play the cult card. Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that I believe in "eternal torment" and I also believe that the SDA is a "cult". Would it advance the credibility of my "eternal hell" position make use of my belief that the SDA is a cult in this debate?

I doubt it. Whether I am right or wrong about "eternal torment", readers will infer that I need to smear the annihilationist as being in a cult specifically because the weight of my arguments cannot carry the day.

It is not an effective strategy in support of your position, I would humbly suggest.
 
jgredline said:
Jesus tells us not to fear those who “kill the body but cannot kill the soul,†but that we should rather “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hellâ€Â. Here the word “soul†clearly must refer to the part of a person that exists after death. It cannot mean “person†or “life,†for it would not make sense to speak of those who “kill the body but cannot kill the person,†or who “kill the body but cannot kill the life,†unless there is some aspect of the person that lives on after the body is dead.
I am sorry but this argument is clearly not correct. I have provided what I believe to be a clear and precise explanation of how this "kill the body but not the soul" text can indeed be made to work within the context of the view that the soul is not a "part" of man that lives on after death. In case some have missed it, here it is again:

Drew said:
This text does not exclusively support Solo's take that man has separate parts. This text works perfectly well with a conceptualization man where the soul is not a separate part of man.

Here is how this works. Let's speculate that the term "soul" refers to the "blueprint" or the "specification" of a human person who is, in fact, indivisible into components. If man kills the body, God can still resurrect that person, because God "knows" who that person was (before they were killed) and can certainly reconstitute him at the time of the general resurrection using this "blueprint". The point - man can only kill the body, he cannot "erase" the information that God holds about that person. Is such a blueprint a separate "part" of a human person? Of course not.

God, on the other hand, can indeed utterly do away with a person, by electing to "erase" or "blot out" that person in his / her totality - by doing away with both body and "soul". On this view, the destruction of the soul is God's judgement that the wages of sin is indeed death (non-existence) as His word clearly teaches in Romans 6:23 and elsewhere. On the view that the "soul" is this blueprint for a human being, and God does away with that person by erasing the blueprint along with the body - the Matthew text works perfectly well with this.
Is your interpretation possibly correct? Yes it is. But in order to give an open-minded reader a reason to decide that your view is correct, you need to undermine the plausibility of the view that I have presented above. It is, after all, an entirely plausible alternative.

Just because the Matthew text in question works with your interpretation does not mean that it does not also work with mine. So there is more work to do to make your case stick. I have never claimed that my take on this text from Matthew is really evidence for the annihilationist position. I would deploy other evidence to make the case.
 
jgredline said:
Drew
I will leave you with this simple scripture.....

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Until I decided to make the key step of opening my mind to the possibility of seeing "soul" and "spirit" as something other than immaterial components of the human person, I would have felt just like you do about the meaning of the above text.

If any reader is willing, just for a moment, to entertain the mere possibility that the words "soul" and "spirit" do not connote immaterial entities, they will see how this text is not evidence for the traditionalist view of man being a multi-partite being.

Here is my case: Consider the following hypothetical "revision" to the above text:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of mind and personality, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Does this text make sense to us? Yes it does. We do not think that there is anything wrong with it at all. In our culture we believe that the "mind" and the "personality" are not separate components of the human person. And yet this belief does not create a contradiction. But we bring this belief to the text.

I trust the point is clear. The argument that you are making is circular - you appear to be assuming that man is not monistic and that no other alternative is even possible. So it is not surprising that you see this text as confirming your position. But my "reworking" of the text shows that if, repeat if, "soul" and "spirit" are really more like "mind" and "personality", the text works equally well. As a separate text unto itself, the text does not really support either your non-monistic take or my monistic take.
 
jgredline said:
Even more explicit is 2 Corinthians 7:1, where he says, “let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.â€Â
Cleansing ourselves from defilement of the “soul†or of the “spirit†covers the whole immaterial side of our existence
Again, the above text does not support the multi-partite view of man. Consider the following hypothetical rewording:

“let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and mind, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.

The point being that if a word such as "mind", believed in secular culture to not be a separate component to the human person, is inserted into the text, the text still makes perfect sense.

This hypothetical basically proves that we must bring meaning of the word "spirit" to the text in order to see the text as evidence for the multi-component view of man.

Perhaps man is multi-partite. But this text cannot be used as an item of evidence of that view for the precise reason that it is equally supportive of the view that the spirit is not a separate component.
 
jgredline said:
Guibox
I am not surprised you don't want to debate....I would not want to debate if I were in your shoes either.....Why is it that ''ONLY'' CULTS hold to annihalation?

Your an SDA right?

jg, don't faltter yourself if you think I am afraid of going head to head with you. I know the Bible is on my side and the only thing I need to be afraid of is taking the time to researcha nd post to merely have it ignored like you usually do so you can ramble on about nothing over and over again.

Your trying to goad me won't change the facts as to why I won't debate you.
You don't have to be surprised by any reason why I won't debate with you. You proved it right here why I won't waste my time debating with you.

1) You resort to the cult card and rude ramblings

2) You don't read or pay attention to anything I post but ignore it for more ignorant ramblings

A few posts back I said this:

Perhaps you should read Philip Hughes, Edward Fudge, John Wenham (who promoted eternal torment all his life and regretted it much later on vowing to try and undo what he did), Clark Pinnock and John Stott's on this subject? They are all well respected evangelical and reformed scholars (why, not one cult leader in the midst of them!). Why don't you try and read their logic in this matter as they are very convincing and abandoned simply on biblical basis alone and embraced annihilation eternal torment.

There are at least 4 or 5 others right off the top of my head that I could add to this list...none of which belong to anything 'cultic'.

But that doesn't matter to you because you will believe what you want anyway.

jg, I've wasted my time with more rational, logical and thoughtful people than yourself who believe in eternal torment. I will not waste my time with you when all you can do when you don't get your way is slander and resort to ridiculous (and false for that matter concerning the SDA church as a cult) accusations.
 
Drew said:
One of the hallmark signs of having a weak argument is the need to play the cult card. Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that I believe in "eternal torment" and I also believe that the SDA is a "cult". Would it advance the credibility of my "eternal hell" position make use of my belief that the SDA is a cult in this debate?

I doubt it. Whether I am right or wrong about "eternal torment", readers will infer that I need to smear the annihilationist as being in a cult specifically because the weight of my arguments cannot carry the day.

It is not an effective strategy in support of your position, I would humbly suggest.

Drew
On the contrary..It is very crucial to the debate...Let me explain....You said
I think this debate is important, but I think that moving it to the "debate" area will only serve to reduce the readership - I think people are not that interested in a debate that is not "open to all".

Why not just keep the discussion going in this more "open" forum? Then the "lurkers" are free to participate if they see fit. I want the discussion to get as much exposure as possible and I think sending it to the debate area will "annihilate" it....
...I could not think of a single group of folks who hold to the anniahalist position that was NOT a cult....Every sect that Holds to this position is a cult....The JW=CULT, SDA = CULT, UR FOLK=CULT, The Christadelphians = CULT....So yes the reader who is lurking needs to read and understand that this cultic theology is a tool of the dragon Satan himself....

So yes it does have relevance
 
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part One
by Alan W. Gomes
  • And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? And what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God.

     Joseph Franklin Rutherford, Watchtower Society's Second President [1]

    How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself.

     Clark Pinnock, Professor and Noted Evangelical Author [2]
Christians through the centuries have affirmed that those who do not accept God's offer of salvation in Christ will suffer conscious, everlasting torment. Denial of this teaching has, until recently, been limited almost exclusively to cultic or quasi-cultic groups. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses vociferously reject the orthodox teaching on hell, denouncing it as an error of apostate Christendom. They teach that the wicked will be "annihilated" rather than suffer eternal torment. Likewise, Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Mormonism, and the New Age movement all repudiate the orthodox doctrine. Besides these undeniably cultic groups, the Seventh-day Adventists also reject the historic doctrine in favor of annihilation. [3] While Seventh-day Adventism may not be a cult in the technical theological sense of the term I am using here, [4] they nonetheless have been perceived commonly as a "fringe" group by orthodox Christians. [5]

Alternative, unorthodox views concerning the final state of the wicked are no longer limited to the fringe. Today, individuals who have been regarded as solidly within the evangelical camp are abandoning the doctrine of conscious, eternal punishment in favor of various "annihilation" scenarios. Probably the most prominent evangelical to go over to the annihilationist position is Anglican John R. W. Stott, Rector of All Soul's church in London. Stott's shift came to light in a book published by InterVarsity Press entitled Evangelical Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue. In this book, Stott responds to liberal Anglican David Edwards on a range of theological issues. It was in response to Edwards's position on judgment and hell that Stott presented his reformulated views. [6] Though Stott is probably the most respected evangelical to espouse the annihilationists' cause, others have joined this growing movement as well. Clark Pinnock, John Wenham, Philip Hughes, and Stephen Travis have all positioned themselves as annihilationists within the evangelical camp. [7] In addition, Adventist scholars who regard themselves as evangelical, such as Edward Fudge and David A. Dean, also actively propagate annihilationist views. [8]

There is every reason to think that more evangelicals will jump on the annihilationist bandwagon. As Clark Pinnock notes, the annihilationist position "does seem to be gaining ground among evangelicals. The fact that no less of a person than J. R. W. Stott has endorsed it now will certainly encourage this trend to continue." [9] Furthermore, this movement away from the traditional doctrine of hell is part and parcel of a larger evangelical "megashift" away from other standard orthodox teachings  such as the substitutionary atonement, sin, and judgment  in favor of so-called "new-model" views. [10] In other words, the rejection of eternal punishment is but one incident in the larger campaign to construct a kinder, gentler theology.

It is precisely this desire for a kinder, gentler theology that appears to be the dynamic that is driving this movement. Stott's own meditations on the doctrine of hell have led him to say, "Well, emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain." [11] Pinnock's complaint is even more emotionally charged: "Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die." [12]

It would be easy to write off this shift as mere sentimentalism. Yet, such a facile conclusion would be unfair  as is clear in the case of Stott. As emotionally traumatic as Stott finds the doctrine, he admits that our emotions "are a fluctuating, unreliable guide to truth and must not be exalted to a place of supreme authority in determining it." [13] Stott is, after all, an evangelical. As such, he declares that the issue for him is "not what does my heart tell me, but what does God's word say?" [14]

When one reads the writings of "evangelical annihilationists," it is clear that they believe the Bible is on their side. We are not dealing with liberal critics  like Samuel Davidson, the famous nineteenth-century rationalist critic [15]  who admit on the one hand that the Bible teaches the eternal torment of the lost, but who then reject the doctrine in the next breath. In a way, the evangelical annihilationists represent more of a threat to the orthodox doctrine than the cultists and liberals. In the past, defenders of the traditional view could more readily attribute the annihilationist position to a cultic mind-set or to a general denigration of biblical authority. [16] Defenders of the doctrine of eternal punishment must now gird up their loins to meet the objections from within their own evangelical camp. [17]

Evangelicals must agree with Edward Fudge, a strong advocate of the annihilationist position, when he states that the doctrine must finally be determined by Scripture and Scripture alone. We must "humbly receive" what Scripture says "on this or any subject." [18] While it is true that the doctrine of endless punishment for the wicked is the position traditionally held by the church throughout the centuries, this in itself does not make it correct. [19] Of course, the fact that the church historically has interpreted the Scriptures to teach the doctrine of endless punishment ought to make us think long and hard before setting the doctrine aside. But when all is said and done, it is the teaching of Scripture that is determinative.

Alternatives to the Traditional View of Endless Punishment

Up until now we have mentioned two broad alternatives to the fate of the wicked: eternal, conscious torment (the traditional view) and annihilationism. But it is important to recognize that there are other nontraditional options besides annihilation, and that even within the annihilationist camp there is significant variety.

Universalism

Simply stated, the doctrine of universalism is that ultimately everyone will be saved. Though this teaching has never been the dominant view of the church, it nevertheless has had its champions. Space simply does not permit us to consider the history of universalistic teaching. [20] Suffice it to say, such teaching has not gained a significant foothold among evangelicals. For example, the recent Evangelical Affirmations Conference, held in May of 1989 at Trinity Seminary in Deerfield, Illinois, officially repudiated universalism, even though traditionalists could not muster enough support to secure a repudiation of annihilationism. [21] As Millard Erickson observes, it is "difficult to find any evangelicals" who hold to universalism. [22] Since universalism has not made significant inroads among evangelicals  at least so far  it is not the focus of this article. [23]

Annihilationism

As noted throughout the previous discussion, "annihilationism" is the teaching that God will "condemn them [the wicked] to extinction, which is the second death." [24] Those who remain impenitent will simply pass out of existence; they will be no more.

Within this basic model several variations emerge. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that some persons (e.g., Judas Iscariot) pass out of existence at death, never to return. Others will be raised from nonexistence during the Millennium and be given a chance to accept Jehovah's kingdom. Those failing to do so will be annihilated. [25]

The Seventh-day Adventist teaching differs somewhat from the above. Like the Witnesses, the Adventists deny that there is an entity called the "soul" that survives the body. That is to say, the conscious, thinking part of man dies (ceases to exist) with the body. Though this position is often called "soul sleep," the term "soul extinction" better describes it. [26] The Adventists teach that the wicked will be raised (or, more properly, "re-created") on the day of judgment. At that time, God will inflict on the wicked "conscious pain of whatever degree and duration God may justly determine." [27] This infliction is truly penal in character, though the suffering is not endless. "But in the end...the wicked will be consumed entirely and be no more." [28]

Other variations are possible. For one thing, not all annihilationists teach the doctrine of "soul sleep." Many would admit that the wicked experience conscious existence (or even punishment) between their deaths and resurrection (i.e., during the so-called "intermediate state"). Thus, they would experience extinction after their conscious existence in the intermediate state.

Regardless of the individual differences that exist (as well as those yet to be suggested), all annihilationists are united on these points: (1) The ultimate end of the wicked is annihilation or extinction of being, regardless of what state of existence may or may not precede this final annihilation event. (2) The annihilation is eternal; the sentence will never be reversed. These suppositions represent the irreducible core of annihilationist teaching.

Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism

Many writers believe that annihilationism and conditional immortality are just two different names for the same position. [29] However, these concepts  while related  are not the same.

Those who affirm "conditional immortality" are called "conditionalists." They deny that the soul of man is inherently immortal. Conditionalists maintain that "our immortality is not a natural attribute of humankind but God's gift." [30] David A. Dean says that immortality is "conditional" in the sense that "conditions must be met before the sinner can receive everlasting personal existence." [31] Conditionalists contrast their position with what they erroneously perceive to be the traditional teaching, namely, that the soul is by nature absolutely impervious to destruction.

On the other hand, annihilationism has to do with God's ultimate intention to annihilate the wicked, that is, remove them from existence forever. As we shall see below, it would be theoretically possible for one to believe in the natural immortality of the soul in the orthodox sense (rightly understood), and at the same time affirm that God will annihilate the wicked. Even though I will show that such a position is logically possible in theory, in actual practice those who teach annihilationism also teach conditional immortality, and vice versa. This accounts for the tendency to treat the terms as synonyms.

At this juncture, we should observe an error in the conditionalist's understanding of the orthodox view. Conditionalists are fond of charging the orthodox with simply having adopted the Platonic concept of an immortal, indestructible soul. [32] They allege that the Platonic teaching of the indestructibility of the soul "really drives the traditional doctrine of hell more than exegesis does." [33] The traditional logic, we are told, is that since the soul is incapable of destruction, it must live somewhere forever. Hell thus becomes an appropriate abode for the indestructible souls of wicked people. [34]

The conditionalists do not understand the orthodox teaching on the immortality of the soul. Even a cursory study of historic orthodoxy on this subject will bear this out. The orthodox point out that the immortality of the soul is not an absolute but a contingent immortality. The soul, as a created substance, depends on God's continuing providential support  just as all other created entities do. In the words of the seventeenth-century Reformed theologian Johannes Wollebius, "The human soul is immortal not ... because it cannot be reduced to nothing by God; but by God's ordinance and so far as it is indestructible by second causes." [35] In other words, while the "immortal" soul is impervious to destruction from both external secondary causes (e.g., people), and internal secondary causes (e.g., diseases, such as can afflict the body), the soul could be annihilated by its primary cause, God. [36]

The orthodox doctrine of the soul's immortality can therefore hardly be, as Pinnock states, the teaching that "drives the traditional doctrine of hell." In order for Pinnock to be correct, the orthodox would have to teach the soul's absolute indestructibility. Yet, as we have seen, the orthodox explicitly deny such a notion.

From the previous discussion, we see that annihilationism and conditionalism are not synonymous. One could  at least in theory  hold to the natural immortality of the soul in the orthodox sense (i.e., in terms of the soul's freedom from destruction by secondary causes), and at the same time affirm God's intention to annihilate the souls of the wicked. Therefore, the real issue is not whether God could annihilate the wicked, but whether there is any reason to think that God in fact intends to do so. And this question can be answered only by looking at the Bible.

Biblical Passages on the Nature and Duration of Punishment

Before considering the annihilationist's arguments against the doctrine of eternal, conscious punishment for the wicked (which we will do in Part Two of this series), we will first consider the teaching of Scripture on this subject. Then, we will have a framework for evaluating the annihilationist's arguments.

An exhaustive study on the doctrine of hell is not necessary, for this controversy revolves around only two main points: (1) Do the wicked experience conscious torment?; and (2) Do they suffer this torment eternally? Therefore, in looking at the scriptural evidence for the historic position, we will focus on those passages that address these two questions.

Even after narrowing the issue to these two main points, there are still too many pertinent texts to allow a detailed exegesis of them all. But I believe that there are two sets of texts that answer these two questions conclusively. One set of passages comes from Matthew 25; the other verses come from the Book of Revelation. While many other texts can be used in defense of the orthodox position, these are  in my opinion  the clearest. I will therefore treat these two sets of texts in detail.

Matthew 25:41-46

[v. 41] "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire [to pur to aionion] which has been prepared for the devil and his angels....' [v. 46] And these will go away into eternal punishment [kolasin aionion], but the righteous into life eternal [zoen aionion]."

First let us consider what these texts say about the nature of the wicked's fate. Then we shall consider what they teach about its duration.

The Nature of Hell From Matthew 25:41, 46. We observe first of all that the wicked share the same fate as Satan and his demonic hosts. Indeed, this text tells us that hell was created specifically for Satan and his angels. As followers of Satan, impenitent men will meet the same fate as he. This is significant, because when we look at other passages in the Book of Revelation that speak of the Devil's fate (see below), we are fully justified in ascribing this same fate to unredeemed men.

Notice that this passage describes hell as a place of "eternal fire." Should we understand this to mean literal, material, physical fire? Or should we regard the expression as metaphorical language, designed to convey an awful spiritual reality through physical language? Most conservatives  who affirm the doctrine of eternal, conscious punishment  would say that this is metaphorical language. [37] For one thing, the rich man in Luke 16:24 is described as being in agony in the flames. He is also described as having a tongue, and Lazarus is said to have a finger. But this scene occurs in Hades, during the disembodied state between death and resurrection. It is therefore difficult to see how a nonphysical being could have a literal tongue, much less be tormented by literal, physical fire. [38] The same would apply to the other physical metaphors used to describe hell, such as the undying worm (Mark 9:48) and the chains of darkness (Jude 6).

Some may object that invoking the concept of figurative language is a thinly veiled attempt to evade the force of Jesus' words. But precisely the opposite is true. The fact is, the horrors of hell are so great that no earthly language can do complete justice to them. By using the figure of unquenchable fire, undying worms, etc., Jesus selected the most horrific descriptions that earthly language would allow. As Robert Reymond observes, "the reality they [the figures] seek to represent should surely be understood by us to be more  not less  than the word pictures they depict." [39] Likewise, Ralph E. Powell urges, "If the descriptions of hell are figurative or symbolic, the conditions they represent are more intense and real than the figures of speech in which they are expressed." [40]

In the Matthean texts before us, the final state of the wicked is described as one of everlasting punishment (kolasin aionion). [41] From this it follows that the wicked are not annihilated. William Shedd cogently argues that "the extinction of consciousness is not of the nature of punishment." [42] If suffering is lacking, so is punishment; punishment entails suffering. But suffering entails consciousness. "If God by a positive act extinguishes, at death, the remorse of a hardened villain, by extinguishing his self-consciousness, it is a strange use of language to denominate this a punishment." [43]

Consider also the following differences between either cessation of consciousness/annihilation and punishment: (1) There are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.). (2) For those who are experiencing severe punishment, extinction of consciousness is actually a state to be desired. Luke 23:30-31 and Revelation 9:6 talk about the wicked  experiencing the intense wrath of God  begging in vain to have the mountains fall on them. They clearly prefer unconsciousness to their continuing torment. As Shedd observes, "The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse...." [44] (3) Punishment demands the existence of the one being punished. As Gerstner points out, "One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it." [45] (4) One could argue that annihilation might be the result of punishment. But the Scriptures say that it is the punishment itself which is eternal, not merely its result.

The punishment of the wicked entails separation from God as a key component. Notice that Christ banishes them forever from His presence. As Guthrie observes, "When we penetrate below the language about hell, the major impression is a sense of separation...." [46] Even those who do not follow Christ in this lifetime are still recipients of His goodness (Matt. 5:45), even if they do not acknowledge this. In the final state it will not be so.

The Duration of Hell From Matthew 25:41, 46. The Greek adjective aionion used in these verses means "everlasting, without end." We should note, however, that in certain contexts the adjective aionios is not always used of eternity. In some passages it refers to an "age" or period of time. Luke 1:70, for example, says that God "spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from of old (ap aionos)." Clearly, this cannot be a reference to eternity past. A similar construction is found in Acts 3:21. [47] On the other hand, the adjective is predicated of God (i.e., the "eternal God"), as in 1 Timothy 1:7, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, and 13:8. In these latter passages aionios means "eternal," as shown from their context and from the fact that God is the subject.

Granting that the term may or may not refer to eternity, how can we be sure of its meaning in Matthew 25? What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective aionios is used to describe both the length of punishment for the wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked without at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked. John Broadus, in his classic commentary on Matthew, states, "It will at once be granted, by any unprejudiced and docile mind, that the punishment of the wicked will last as long as the life of the righteous; it is to the last degree improbable that the Great Teacher would have used an expression so inevitably suggesting a great doctrine he did not mean to teach...." [48]

Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10

[14:9] "...If anyone worships the beast and his image... [14:10] he will be tormented [basanisthesetai] with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [14:11] And the smoke of their torment [basanismou] goes up forever and ever [eis aionas aionon]; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image,... [20:10] And the Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented [basanisthesontai] day and night forever and ever [eis tous aionas ton aionon]."

The Nature of Punishment in Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. These texts describe the nature of the punishment as "torment." The words used in these texts are forms of the Greek word basanizo. As Thayer states, basanizo means "to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment." [49] Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich say that basanizo means "to torture, torment," and may apply to either physical or mental vexation. [50] When we examine the uses of the verb basanizo and its various noun forms throughout the New Testament, we see that great pain and conscious misery are in view, not annihilation or cessation of consciousness. For example, the centurion's sick servant is grievously tormented (deinos basanizomenos) by his palsy (Matt. 8:6). Revelation 12:2 uses the verb to describe the pains of childbirth. In 2 Peter 2:8, righteous Lot is described as tormented (ebasanizen) in his soul by the wicked deeds of the Sodomites. In Luke 16:23 and 28, the plural noun "torments" (basanoi) is used to describe the rich man's conscious suffering in Hades. Indeed, in verse 28 Hades is described as "the place of torment" (ho topos tou basanou).

At this point, one might object that the passage does not specify whether or not the torment is "conscious." Are we not smuggling in the word conscious here? But, what other kind of torment is there besides conscious torment? Torment, by its very nature, demands a sentient (i.e., feeling) subject to experience it. A rock or a tree cannot be "tormented." How much less could a nonentity  such as an annihilated devil, beast, false prophet, or sinner  experience torment?

One might also object that these passages in Revelation do not say that men are tormented, just the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Are we justified in jumping from the Devil's torment to the torment of the wicked? As we already observed from Matthew 25, the fate of the wicked is the same as the Devil's fate. Other passages affirm the same fact (e.g., Rev. 20:15).

The Duration of Punishment in Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionos can, in some contexts, qualify nouns of limited duration. (Though, as we also observed, the context of Matthew 25 demands that we take aionios in its unlimited signification there.) But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages"). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the "twofold use of the term [aionios]" is designed "to emphasize the concept of eternity." [51] The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical commentator R. C. H. Lenski observes: "The strongest expression for our 'forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, 'for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones." [52]

This same emphatic construction is found in Revelation 1:6; 4:9; and 5:3, where it refers to the unending worship of God. In Revelation 4:10 and 10:6 it is used to describe God's own endless life. And in Revelation 22:5 the construction is employed to characterize the everlasting reign of the saints. [53]

Note also that the unending nature of the torment is shown by the fact that the expression "day and night" is used to describe its duration. The expression "day and night" is indicative of ceaseless activity. This same phrase is used of the never-ending worship of God in Revelation 4:8 and 7:15. By juxtaposing the words "day and night" with "forever and ever" in 20:10, we have the most emphatic expression of unending, ceaseless activity possible in the Greek language.

In summary, these verses from Matthew and Revelation are more than adequate to answer the two questions before us. The language is unambiguous, emphatic, and conclusive. These verses by themselves should be sufficient to settle the argument forever.

Unquenchable Fire, Undying Worms

A lake of fire burns but is never quenched ... undying worms ... chains of darkness ... weeping and gnashing of teeth. Such is the powerful imagery for the horrible fate that awaits those who persist in their rejection of God and of His Christ. What else do these awesome figures force upon our imagination but a picture of unutterable suffering, fueled by the hopelessness of unceasing duration? Are they adapted to convey anything else? Does the thought of remedial, temporary suffering naturally come to mind when we contemplate the picture of unquenchable fire or undying worms? Do we envision the cessation of consciousness or the extinction of being as we picture the Devil and his followers tormented with fire and brimstone, day and night, forever and ever? Had Christ wished to teach the annihilation of the wicked, is it reasonable that He would have selected language guaranteed to lead His church astray? If annihilation is the true fate of the lost, would not Christ Himself be to blame for the erroneous teaching of His saints in all ages?

Let the reader note well that most of these graphic descriptions of perdition come from the lips of the Lord Jesus. "Without the explicit and reiterated statements of God Incarnate, it is doubtful whether so awful a truth would have such a conspicuous place as it always has had in the creed of Christendom." [54] If we gladly embrace the teaching of Incarnate Love when He speaks words of comfort and of life, must we not also receive, with all due solemnity, the words of Incarnate Justice when He speaks of judgment, perdition, and hell?

We can well sympathize with Stott, when he censures "the glibness, which almost appears to be the glee ... with which some evangelicals speaks about Hell." [55] Yet, speak of it we must, for it is the teaching of Scripture in general and of the Son of God in particular. As ambassadors of Christ we must deliver the message with which we have been entrusted. We must agree with Shedd's cogent summary in his classic work, The Doctrine of Endless Punishment: "Neither the Christian Ministry, nor the Christian church, are responsible for the doctrine of eternal perdition. It is given in charge to the ministry, and to the Church, by the Lord Christ Himself, in His last commission, as a truth to be preached to every creature." [56]

About the Author
Alan W. Gomes is Assistant Professor of Historical Theology at Talbot School of Theology, La Mirada, California. He received his Ph.D in historical theology from Fuller Theological Seminary.

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NOTES are located HERE

Retrieved from http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html
 
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part Two
by Alan W. Gomes


In Part One of this article I discussed how some prominent evangelicals recently have abandoned the doctrine of eternal, conscious punishment for the wicked in favor of various annihilation theories. I also examined the scriptural teaching on the doctrine of hell, paying particular attention to key passages from the Gospel of Matthew and the Book of Revelation. From our investigation, we saw that the biblical teaching on the fate of the unsaved is clear: they will experience conscious torment of unending duration.

From what we saw in Part One, we might well question how anyone who claims to believe in the authority of Scripture  as the evangelical annihilationists do  could affirm anything but the traditional teaching. Evangelical annihilationists counter that they have rational and biblical evidence to support their position. In Part Two of this article, we will examine some of the main arguments advanced by annihilationists in support of their theory.

In the short space available it is not possible to present every proof annihilationists could marshal in defense of their position  just as there was not enough space in Part One to advance many of the arguments supporting the orthodox position. In Part One, I selected what I consider to be the strongest arguments in favor of the traditional teaching. In this concluding installment I will do the same in presenting the annihilationists' case. In selecting these arguments I have tried to discern which ones the annihilationists themselves regard as the strongest. These proofs appear in virtually every defense of the annihilationist view.

When annihilationists present their case, their evidence generally falls into one of three basic categories. First we have the moral arguments, which maintain that the traditional teaching on hell would  if true  involve immoral actions on God's part. Second are linguistic arguments, based on the meaning of key biblical terms used to describe the final fate of the wicked. Third are exegetical arguments that attempt to neutralize verses the traditionalists commonly offer in proof of their position (such as those expounded in Part One). We will consider evidence from each of these three categories. (A fourth category, that the traditional doctrine is derived from the Platonic notion of the soul's immortality, was adequately answered in Part One.)

Moral Arguments

Annihilationists frequently complain that it would be immoral for God to inflict everlasting torture on His creatures. Clark Pinnock regards the doctrine of endless punishment as "morally flawed" and a "moral enormity." [1] If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...." Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die." [2]

Annihilationists commonly argue that endless torment represents a punishment far in excess of the offense committed. John Stott maintains that if the traditional teaching were true, there would be "a serious disproportion between sins consciously committed in time and the torment consciously experienced throughout eternity." [3] Likewise, Pinnock states, "it would amount to inflicting infinite suffering upon those who have committed finite sin. It would go far beyond an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There would be a serious disproportion between sins committed in time and the suffering experienced forever." [4] Such vindictiveness, we are told, is totally incompatible with the character of God and utterly unacceptable to "sensitive Christians." [5] It would "serve no purpose" and be an act of "sheer vengeance and vindictiveness," which is "out of keeping with the love of God revealed in the gospels." [6]

Stott and Pinnock's argument that "sins committed in time cannot be worthy of eternal suffering" is fallacious. It assumes that the heinousness of a crime is directly related to the time it takes to commit it. But such a connection is nonexistent. Some crimes, such as murder, may take only a moment to commit, whereas it may take a thief hours to load up a moving van with someone's possessions. Yet, murder is a far more serious crime than theft. [7]

Second, the nature of the object against which the sin is committed, as well as the nature of the sin itself, must be taken into account when determining the degree of heinousness. As W. G. T. Shedd observes, stealing in general is a crime, but stealing from one's mother is even more despicable because one owes special allegiance to one's parents. Torturing an animal is a crime, but torturing a human being is an even greater crime, worthy of greater punishment. The criminal act is the same in each case (i.e., stealing and torture), as is the person committing the act. But "the different worth and dignity of the objects upon whom his action terminates makes the difference in the gravity of the two offenses." [8]

How much more serious, then, is even the slightest offense against an absolutely holy God, who is worthy of our complete and perpetual allegiance? [9] Indeed, sin against an absolutely holy God is absolutely serious. For this reason, the unredeemed suffer absolute, unending alienation from God; this alienation is the essence of hell. It is the annihilationist's theory that is morally flawed. Their God is not truly holy, for he does not demand that sin receive its due.

The reason these "sensitive Christians" have such an emotional problem with hell is because they, in the words of Anselm, "have not as yet estimated the great burden of sin." [10] If they truly saw sin as God does (recognizing that no sinner can do so perfectly), they would not have the slightest problem with the doctrine. Indeed, they would find themselves distraught if God did not punish sin for all eternity.

Linguistic Arguments

Annihilationists believe they can make a case for their theory based on the meaning of key biblical terms used to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked. LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. [11] On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." [12] Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination." [13]

Space will not permit us to examine all or even many of the words that Froom, Fudge, Stott, and others offer to establish their position. We should note, however, that many of the words in Froom's "impressive, cumulative array" of seventy terms do not even merit examination. [14] For example, he lists words like "tear" and "tread down" as proof of annihilation  as if a torn piece of paper has been removed from existence! Here, we will consider a few of the words that at least offer the possibility of teaching annihilation. By refuting these examples, I will demonstrate the flaws in their method generally. [15]

"Destroy," "Perish," and "Cut Off"

Annihilationists believe that words like "perish," "destroy," and "cut off" indicate total annihilation. Fudge declares that these words "seem clearly to say what the conditionalist wishes to convey ... and the conditionalist is confident that the ordinary man in the street can tell us what those words usually mean to him." [16]

The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. But should we understand this destruction to mean total annihilation?

It is clear from other Old Testament passages using this word that abad need not mean annihilation. [17] The word has a range of meaning. For example, Numbers 21:29 says that the people of Chemosh were "destroyed" (abad). But this is a reference to their being sold into slavery, not to their annihilation. In 1 Samuel 9:3 and 20, the word is used in reference to Saul's "lost donkeys" (athonoth abadoth). In this context, the word means "lost," not "annihilated." In Psalm 31:12, a vessel is "broken" (abad), not annihilated. Here, the meaning is that the vessel is rendered unfit for use, not that it has lapsed into nonexistence. It simply is not true that abad, "without exception," must mean annihilation. [18]

Evildoers are also said to be "cut off." Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative. [19] These verses, they believe, prove the utter annihilation of the wicked. The word used here is carath. But note that this same word is used to describe the Messiah being "cut off" (Dan. 9:26), who certainly was not annihilated. Even if one admits that the wicked are "annihilated" in the sense of being removed from earthly existence (as Jesus was), this would not prove that they are removed from any existence.

Turning to the New Testament, annihilationists claim that the Greek word apollumi conveys total annihilation. Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." [20] He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." [21] He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

Careful scrutiny of passages using these words shows, however, that they do not teach annihilation. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, one of the passages cited by Stott. This passage tells us that "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing [tois apollumenois]." This participle is in the present tense, which, as Robert Reymond rightly notes, "describes existing people who are presently perishing. The verb does not suggest that their future state will be non-existence." [23]

As Reymond points out, Luke 15:8-9 uses the word to describe the lost but existing coin. In Luke 15:4 and 6 it describes the lost but existing sheep. The prodigal (but existing) son is described by this term in Luke 15:17, 24. [24] Murray Harris cites other passages, such as John 11:50, Acts 5:37, 1 Corinthians 10:9-10, and Jude 11, where the concept of destruction (apoleia) or perishing (apolusthai) need not imply annihilation. [25] Indeed, as Albrecht Oepke remarks in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, "What is meant here [in passages speaking of divine judgment] is not a simple extinction of existence, but an everlasting state of torment and death." [26]

It is true that apoleia is often translated "destruction" or "ruin." But Charles Hodge explains how "destruction" or "ruin" differs from annihilation: "To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... A soul is utterly and forever destroyed when it is reprobated, alienated from God, rendered a fit companion only for the devil and his angels." [27]

Roger Nicole offers an illustration that highlights in a very lucid way the truth of Hodge's explanation. We speak of an automobile as wrecked, ruined, demolished, or "totalled," "not only when its constituent parts have been melted or scattered away, but also when they have been so damaged and twisted that the car has become completely unserviceable." [28]

"Consume"

Annihilationists also point to words translated "consume" or "consumed" in the Old and New Testaments as proof that the wicked are annihilated. Pinnock states, for example, that the Bible repeatedly "uses the imagery of fire consuming (not torturing) what is thrown into it. The images of fire and destruction together strongly suggest annihilation rather than unending torture." [29] Pinnock then cites Malachi 4:1 as a case in point.

Stott likewise claims that the imagery of fire does not refer to conscious torment, even though all of us who have experienced being burned have felt acute pain. He says that the main function of fire is not to cause pain but to secure destruction, as in the case of an incinerator. The Bible speaks of a "consuming fire" and of "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12; cf. Luke 3:17). Stott concludes, "The fire itself is termed 'eternal' and 'unquenchable' but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proved indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed forever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which 'rises forever and ever' (Rev. 14:11; cf. 19:3)." [30]

In response, Robert Morey and others have shown conclusively that the Hebrew words translated "consume" are used in many contexts where the meaning cannot possibly be annihilation (e.g., Ps. 78:45; Lam. 3:4; Ezek. 13:13; etc.). [31] (Since space does not permit an exposition of these passages, I refer the interested reader to Morey's fine discussion.) Therefore, we should not assume automatically that the mere presence of the word "consume" ipso facto proves annihilation. Context is always determinative.

Now, let us grant that fire normally represents that which consumes or annihilates its fuel until nothing but ashes are left. Normal fire dies out once the fuel has been consumed. But the fire of judgment is no normal fire: it is described as an eternal fire (Jude 7) which is unquenchable (Mark 9:48). The fact that the smoke is said to rise "forever and ever" is not evidence that "the fire has done its work," as Stott wrongly infers, but rather that the fire is doing its work through a process of endless combustion. Stott replaces the "unquenchable" fire of Jesus with the "quenchable" fire of the annihilationists.

The same argument holds for the undying worms (Mark 9:48). Worms are able to live as long as there is food for them to consume. Once their food supply has been consumed, the worms eventually die. But the torments of hell are likened to undying, not dying worms. This is because their supply of food  the wicked  never ceases.

Annihilationist Answers to Texts Supporting the Traditional View

Adherents of the annihilationist position believe that they have the teaching of Scripture on their side, and that they are able to answer the arguments advanced by the traditionalists in support of eternal, conscious punishment. But is this really the case?

In Part One I put forth a few selected texts to demonstrate the doctrine of eternal punishment. I stated my conviction that these texts alone are sufficient to settle the matter once and for all. Let us see how annihilationists attempt to answer the challenge of these texts, and whether they succeed at doing so.

Matthew 25:46

Consider the approach of John Stott:
  • At the end of the so-called parable of the sheep and goats, Jesus contrasted "eternal life" with "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46). Does that not indicate that in hell people endure eternal conscious punishment? No, that is to read into the text what is not necessarily there. What Jesus said is that both the life and the punishment would be eternal, but he did not in that passage define the nature of either. Because he elsewhere spoke of eternal life as a conscious enjoyment of God (Jn. 17:3), it does not follow that eternal punishment must be a conscious experience of pain at the hand of God. On the contrary, although declaring both to be eternal, Jesus is contrasting the two destinies: the more unlike they are, the better. [32]
Stott is incorrect in asserting that the passage "does not define the nature of either [eternal life or eternal punishment]." As we observed in Part One, the mere fact that the wicked are said to experience "punishment" (Greek: kolasin) proves two inescapable facts by the nature of the case: the existence of the one punished, and the conscious experience of the punishment. If either of these two are lacking, then punishment is not occurring  at least not in any meaningful sense of the term.

Someone cannot be punished eternally unless that someone is there to receive the punishment. One can exist and not be punished, but one cannot be punished and not exist. Nonentities cannot receive punishment. Now, it is possible that one could receive punishment for a time and then be annihilated. In that case, we would have a finite time of punishment followed by a finite process of annihilating (i.e., the actual time it takes to accomplish the annihilation), followed by an unending result of the annihilating process. But the Bible uses the adjective "eternal" to describe the punishment itself, not merely the result of the punishment.

But mere existence is not enough either. One cannot "punish" a rock or a tree, even though these might exist. Annihilationists (e.g., Pinnock [33]) sometimes complain that traditionalists "smuggle" the word "conscious" into their descriptions of punishment. But really, the traditionalist need not "smuggle" anything into the description. Once we have said the word "punishment" we have also said, at least by implication, the word "conscious." Punishment, per se, is conscious or it is not punishment. A punishment that is not felt is not a punishment. It is an odd use of language to speak of an insensate (i.e., unfeeling), inanimate object receiving punishment. To say, "I punished my car for not starting by slowly plucking out its sparkplug wires, one by one," would evoke laughter, not serious consideration.

Stott's axiom, "The more unlike they [i.e., heaven and hell] are, the better," actually harms his own case. If heaven represents unutterable joy, then hell should be unutterable sorrow. Yet, the whole point of the annihilationist's argument is to mitigate the horror of eternal suffering for the lost, not to increase it.

Revelation 20:10

Since Matthew 25:46 is more than adequate to refute annihilationism, we could stop here. But in Part One we saw that Revelation 20:10 is also an exceedingly clear passage teaching eternal punishment for the lost. Even if we conceded Matthew 25:46 to the annihilationists, what could they possibly say in response to John's words: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"?

Clark Pinnock on Revelation 20:10

Pinnock states that in Revelation 20:10 "it is the Devil, the Beast, and the false prophet who are the only ones present, and they cannot be equated with ordinary human beings, however we should understand their nature. John's point seems to be that everything which has rebelled against God will come to an absolute end." [34]

Well, first of all, even if Pinnock's point is that "everything which has rebelled against God will come to an absolute end," John's point is that the Devil, beast, and false prophet will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. To read the text is to refute Pinnock.

Second, Pinnock's statement that the Devil, beast, and false prophet "cannot be equated with ordinary human beings, however we should understand their nature" is both ambiguous and proves nothing, however one wishes to interpret it. Of course an angel's nature is different than a human being's nature. But the point of "equivalence" is not the nature of the beings (i.e., angels as disembodied spirits vs. human beings as psycho-physical unities), but their ultimate fate. I demonstrated clearly in Part One that the fate of wicked humans is "equated" with the fate of the Devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 14:11; 19:20; 20:15).

Besides, even in terms of nature, the Devil (and other angelic beings) can be equated with humans in this respect: both are personal, sensate (i.e., feeling) beings who can experience conscious torment. Consider, for example, Matthew 8:29, where the demons exclaim to Jesus, "Have you come here to torment us before the time?" This shows clearly that demons can be tormented.

If Pinnock allows that Revelation 20:10 proves even the Devil's unending torment, as the form of his argument implies, he will have annihilated one of the main pillars of his position: the belief that finite creatures are incapable of committing infinite sin ("however sinful they may have been" [35]), and thus cannot be punished justly with unending torment.

John Stott on Revelation 20:10

Let us see how John Stott handles this same passage. He declares, "The beast, the false prophet and the harlot, however, are not individual people but symbols of the world in its varied hostility to God. In the nature of the case they cannot experience pain. Nor can 'Death and Hades,' which follow them into the lake of fire (20:13)." [36]

If the beast, the false prophet, and the harlot are only abstract symbols  with no relation to individual people  then Stott is certainly correct in saying that they cannot experience pain. Symbols, being abstractions, cannot be tortured. However, the text says that these three are tortured. It is well and good to deny that abstractions can be tortured. But then Stott should tell us what the text does mean when it describes these alleged abstractions as "tormented day and night." Yet, no explanation whatever is offered. We are left with two possible conclusions: (1) that the three are not mere abstractions (contrary to Stott's exegesis); or (2) that Revelation 20:10 is pure gibberish (contrary to the character of God, who inspired the text). If forced to choose between such an exegesis or God's character, the choice is obvious: the beast, false prophet, and harlot are not mere abstractions but have reference to individual people.

Now, even if we allow that these three are "symbols of the world in its varied hostility to God," we must admit that the world which they symbolize is made up of individual people who are the ones exercising the hostility. If abstractions cannot be tortured, neither can they express hostility. At some level, then, these symbols must designate real people. The same can be said for the expression "death and hades." That is to say, it is individuals held in the power of death and occupying hades who are cast into the lake of fire. This is made exceedingly clear by verses 13-15 of the same chapter.

For the sake of discussion, let us grant to Stott the impossible: the beast, false prophet, and harlot are abstract symbols with no real reference to individual people. Is Stott prepared to say the same about the Devil? Certainly Stott still believes in a personal devil. But the text says, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." As we observed when refuting Pinnock's argument, the annihilationists fall on their own sword: finite beings, they tell us, cannot be punished with infinite punishment. Since none of the annihilationists are prepared to ascribe infinity (and, hence, true deity) to Satan, they must abandon their "moral" argument.

Edward Fudge on Revelation 20:10

Edward Fudge is recognized by many within the annihilationist camp as the standard-bearer for the position. What does the apostle of annihilationism say in response to this verse?

This is the single most problematic text in the whole Bible for the extinction of all evil, even though it does not specify human beings. In view of the overwhelming mass of material otherwise found throughout Scripture, however, one ought to remember the general hermeneutical rule that calls for interpreting the uncommon in light of the common and the obscure in light of the more clearly revealed. [37]

I can paraphrase the essence of Fudge's response as follows: "We know from elsewhere in the Bible that annihilationism is true. Therefore, this verse cannot possibly mean what it says."

What about the hermeneutical principle Fudge invokes, "unclear passages should be interpreted by the clear ones"? Fine. Let us admit his principle. We have already shown that the passages advanced in favor of the annihilation theory can, and often must, be interpreted in the traditional sense. But what is ambiguous about Revelation 20:10, in so far as the doctrine of eternal, conscious torment for the lost is concerned? [38]

Is the word "devil" ambiguous? As seen throughout Fudge's writings, he believes in a personal, malignant spirit-being called the Devil. There is no ambiguity here.

How about the expression, "lake of fire and brimstone"? What is ambiguous about that? Certainly, when God threatens sinners with the lake of fire and brimstone, they do not immediately scratch their heads and ask for clarification. Fudge argues that the term "lake of fire" is "but a symbol for annihilation." [39] But, if we might borrow the words of Fudge himself, the traditionalist "is confident that the ordinary man in the street can tell us what those words usually mean to him." Given the fact that the place described in Revelation 20:10 is a place of unremitting torment, annihilation does not (and cannot) come naturally to mind! Now, we did note in Part One that many traditionalists do not regard the "fire" of Gehenna as being a kind of material fire, but as symbolic of something far worse. Regardless of one's stand on that question, this "ambiguity" does not affect the argument here. The "fire" of Gehenna is at least as bad as the material fire we know in this life.

How about the expression, "beast and false prophet"? Like Stott, Fudge regards the language as "symbolic," referring to "political power and apostate religious beguilement." He concludes that these "are not persons who can be tortured in fire." [40] We already saw the futility of this "symbolic vs. personal" interpretation in connection with Stott. [41] But even allowing that the beast and false prophet are neither individual people nor symbolic of individual people, one cannot escape the fact that the Devil is an individual and that he is tormented day and night, forever and ever. Here Fudge is on the ropes, and grudgingly admits, "There is no easy solution." But then he adds, "Yet to this point no human beings are involved in the lake of fire, nor does this passage say that any of Adam's race are tormented forever and ever." [42] Of course, verse 10 does not mention humans, but one need only look at verse 15 of the same chapter  not to mention Matthew 25:41, Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 19:20  to see that Satan's human followers experience the same fate as he.

If Revelation 20:10 teaches the eternal, conscious torment of the Devil (as indeed it does), then that fact alone annihilates the annihilationist's entire system because: (1) The Devil's eternal punishment reduces to ashes their "no infinite punishment for finite sin" defense. (2) It also shows that eternal, conscious punishment against a sensate, finite, sinful being is moral  and if it can be moral in one case, it can be moral in others. (3) It leaves the traditionalist in a position to prove his entire case simply by showing that unregenerate sinners experience the same fate as the Devil and his angels, a task that is quite easy to do.

How about the word "tormented" (basanizo)? What is unclear about that? We examined the consistent scriptural usage of this word in Part One. We already observed that Fudge tacitly admits the obvious meaning of this term  at least in the Devil's case. But in the case of his "abstractions" (i.e., the beast and false prophet), Fudge, like Stott, tells us that abstractions cannot be tormented. He then leaves us hanging as to what John could have possibly intended by such a meaningless expression.

Finally, is there something ambiguous about the phrase, "day and night forever and ever"? Here we find the emphatic form eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages"). This construction is used only to describe unending duration. We saw in Part One that this phrase is the most emphatic way of expressing endless duration possible in the Greek language.

Superior Sensitivity or Secular Sentimentalism?

Pinnock speaks of the "sensitive Christians" who have no choice but to abandon the doctrine of hell in favor of a kinder and gentler fate for the wicked. [43] But as J. I. Packer observes, "the feelings that make people want conditionalism to be true seem to me to reflect, not superior spiritual sensitivity, but secular sentimentalism which assumes that in heaven our feelings about others will be as at present, and our joy in the manifesting of God's justice will be no greater than it is now." [44]

We should never forget that it was the Lord Jesus Christ, more than any other, who enunciated the doctrine of everlasting torment for the lost. Christ had no need to attend a modern sensitivity training workshop; He was "sensitivity incarnate." But He also manifested a perfect balance of love and justice. The same holy God who "shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess. 1:7) is the God who stooped to become one of us, and bore the vengeance of God's fire in His own body on the tree. If God should open our eyes to understand the terrible price He paid, we would in that instant comprehend the awful guilt of spurning that price. If those who scorned the old covenant were consumed with the fire of this present age, "how much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" (Heb. 10:29)?


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NOTES are located HERE

Retrieved from http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell5.html
 
Drew said:
Until I decided to make the key step of opening my mind to the possibility of seeing "soul" and "spirit" as something other than immaterial components of the human person, I would have felt just like you do about the meaning of the above text.
OK, lets see what you have..


If any reader is willing, just for a moment, to entertain the mere possibility that the words "soul" and "spirit" do not connote immaterial entities, they will see how this text is not evidence for the traditionalist view of man being a multi-partite being.
Drew, I see where your coming from, but the fact is this. The bible says ''For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart''

Here is my case: Consider the following hypothetical "revision" to the above text:
Drew; Consider the following hypothetical "revision" to the above textmy my my, having to resort to changing ''scripture'' to try and prove a point....I will have to add that to my ''seen everything'' list........

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of mind and personality, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
....Wow, you did it. You changed the scripture....Do I need to say more..... :o

Does this text make sense to us? Yes it does. We do not think that there is anything wrong with it at all. In our culture we believe that the "mind" and the "personality" are not separate components of the human person. And yet this belief does not create a contradiction. But we bring this belief to the text.
Drew, drew drew...having to resort to changing the scriptures to make your case is really :o even for you....

I trust the point is clear. The argument that you are making is circular - you appear to be assuming that man is not monistic and that no other alternative is even possible. So it is not surprising that you see this text as confirming your position. But my "reworking" of the text shows that if, repeat if, "soul" and "spirit" are really more like "mind" and "personality", the text works equally well. As a separate text unto itself, the text does not really support either your non-monistic take or my monistic take.

But my reworking of the text? Call it what it is....Your reworking of the word of God.......


Drew
Even for you my Open Theist friend, is this not a bit much??????
 
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