What do you think?

[Solo]

I know the Annihilationists won't read these posts but it beats name-dropping that some evangelicals hold to the teachings of Anniliationists without information to back it up. The previous two posts contain information of those that guibox name-dropped.

Also remember the following truth from Scripture:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[jgredline]

jg, don't faltter yourself if you think I am afraid of going head to head with you. I know the Bible is on my side and the only thing I need to be afraid of is taking the time to researcha nd post to merely have it ignored like you usually do so you can ramble on about nothing over and over again.

Well guibox
Perhaps another day we will debate...For the record the clear word cultic bible will not be of any help to you....
peace...

 

[jgredline]

I know the Annihilationists won't read these posts but it beats name-dropping that some evangelicals hold to the teachings of Anniliationists without information to back it up. The previous two posts contain information of those that guibox name-dropped.

Also remember the following truth from Scripture:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Solo
Did you see where Drew resorted to changing scripture to try and prove his position? :

 

[Solo]

Solo
Did you see where Drew resorted to changing scripture to try and prove his position? :

Surely you do not think that that is the first time, or will be the last do you?! 8-)

 

[jgredline]

Surely you do not think that that is the first time, or will be the last do you?! 8-)

Usually he is more subtle in changing the scriptures, but this time, well.. :-D
I know I should not laugh, but this one was funny...

Solo
Those are some great articles...

 

[guibox]

Oh, my kingdom to put the two of you on 'ignore'...

BTW, Solo, I've read Gomes' tract before. More suppositions and assumptions like every other 'immortal soul' argument that starts with a view then twists scripture to make it fit while ignoring the weightier aspect of scripture that completely contradicts their position.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go read my Clear Word. :roll:

I vowed when I came back that youtwo were going to be completely ignored by me...why I let myself get sucked back in to your nonsense is beyond me. I guess it can start now, though.

 

[Solo]

Oh, my kingdom to put the two of you on 'ignore'...

BTW, Solo, I've read Gomes' tract before. More suppositions and assumptions like every other 'immortal soul' argument that starts with a view then twists scripture to make it fit while ignoring the weightier aspect of scripture that completely contradicts their position.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go read my Clear Word. :roll:

I vowed when I came back that youtwo were going to be completely ignored by me...why I let myself get sucked back in to your nonsense is beyond me. I guess it can start now, though.

When your ole body dies and your soul awaits resurrection remember that I told you so! :-D

PS Your kingdom is small compared to the Kingdom where the righteous souls await the resurrection of their bodies.

 

[stranger]

ZaksDarlin wrote: I am leaning towards believing that "hell" is everlasting death. It is believed only 144,000 make it to heaven at the end times adn this will be the new government. And those who are not worthy of heaven, (sinners,etc) are sentenced to everlasting death. Those who are repentent and have lived their lives accordingly (not perfectly) and believe Jesus is their saviour, will inherit the earth.

Hi there,

Sounds very similar to Watchtower Society teaching. . . .

I purchased a book from Mary K. Baxter, "The Divine Revelation of Hell". And although it would be enough to scare yourself silly into Religion, it just seems to be a bit far-fetched to me on what her "revelation" of hell is like. It is awful and I just cannot imagine our God sentencing people to that type of torture.

Has anyone read that book?

No

 

[Drew]

Solo
Did you see where Drew resorted to changing scripture to try and prove his position? :

At the risk of seeming self-promoting, the thought experiment was a devastating and fatal critique of your use of certain texts to support your belief about the nature of the soul. By simply creating a parallel version of the same text, by substituting different words for "soul" and "spirit", I have clearly shown how your argument is circular.

By using the words "mind" and "personality" and seeing how the text makes perfect sense even though we do not think of "minds" and "personalities" as immaterial entities, the reader will see how the text only supports the "immaterial soul" position by virtue of a view about the words "soul" and "spirit" that we bring to the text.

My argument remains entirely unchallenged. The accusation of "changing the Scriptures" is perhaps understandable, given that my argument entirely undermines your position on these texts. But I suspect it will be seen in the same light as your playing of the "cult card" when faced with penetrating and insghtful arguments.

 

[Drew]

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

Careful scrutiny of passages using these words shows, however, that they do not teach annihilation. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, one of the passages cited by Stott. This passage tells us that "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing [tois apollumenois]." This participle is in the present tense, which, as Robert Reymond rightly notes, "describes existing people who are presently perishing. The verb does not suggest that their future state will be non-existence." [23]

I do not understand how the 1 Corinthians 18 text is any kind of evidence against Stott's position that perishing must conclude with the attainment of a state of nothingness. Yes, people are presently perishing - they are on a track to non-existence. Can anyone explain how this text does not suggest a future state of non-existence. People can be "existing" and in the process of perishing, with the ineviable end of "having perished".

Surely Reymond's argument is not the following: "People are shown in 1 Corinthians 18 to be perishing (present tense) and yet still exist. Therefore this sate of 'perishing' can be maintained forever without reaching a state of non-existence". Such an argument is blatantly wrong. A raging fire has "existing" logs in it that indeed presently exist. However, their end is surely non-existence unless the process of perishing is somehow interrupted.

Since this argument does not work, can anyone explain what Reymond's point is here?

 

[Drew]

In the Matthean texts before us, the final state of the wicked is described as one of everlasting punishment (kolasin aionion). [41] From this it follows that the wicked are not annihilated.

I understand the appeal of such a position, but reference to "everlasting punishment" works perfectly well within an annihilationist world view. I intend to explain precisely how this works.

I think that one of the big problems of the traditionalists is that they, usually unconsciously, choose one way to interpret certain texts when an objective person would see alternatives. Such is the case with this Matthew text, just as I have shown it to be the case with the "fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell" text.

Consider "everlasting punishment". The dead are called forth at the time of the resurrection. Those whose names are not in the book of life are then subject to everlasting punishment. In the context of the annihilationist worldview, the punishment is non-existence / death (as shown by the huge list of texts that I scammed from guibox and posted in this very thread). It is everlasting in the sense that the state of non-existence will never be reversed. We annihilationists believe that the lost undergo everlasting punishment in this sense, not everlasting punishing.

If you object, you have to do much more than say "that interpretation is not the same as mine, therefore its wrong". You have to give the reader reasons to reject the annihilationist take on precisely what it is that is everlasting. The annihilationist believes it is the state of non-existence that is the punishment for sin and that state is indeed everlasting. The "eternal torment" supporter believes otherwise. Fine.

As an annihilationist I would not cite this text as strong evidence of the truth of annihiliationism. If I did so, I would be guilty of the same "close-mindedness to alternatives" that I am objecting to. I would (and have) deployed other arguments to support my position that the fate of unrepentent man is to be consumed into nothingness. What are my texts? Let's start with the huge list that I posted earlier in this thread. I hope to explain in more detail why some of these texts clearly show that the lost are ultimately annihilated.

 

[jgredline]

My argument remains entirely unchallenged. The accusation of "changing the Scriptures" is perhaps understandable, given that my argument entirely undermines your position on these texts. But I suspect it will be seen in the same light as your playing of the "cult card" when faced with penetrating and insghtful arguments.

Drew
Your standing on sand. Do you not realized that you resorted to ''CHANGING'' the scriptures to try and make something that is not there.....

Drew
Your remind me of what W. A. Criswell said.....He describes the false teacher as follows: ... A suave, affable, personable, scholarly man who claims to be the friend of Christ. He preaches in the pulpit, he writes learned books, he publishes articles in the religious magazines. He attacks Christianity from within. He makes the church and the school a lodging place for every unclean and hateful bird. He leavens the meal with the doctrine of the Sadducees......Sound familliar

 

[Drew]

Drew
Your remind me of what W. A. Criswell said.....He describes the false teacher as follows: ... A suave, affable, personable, scholarly man who claims to be the friend of Christ. He preaches in the pulpit, he writes learned books, he publishes articles in the religious magazines. He attacks Christianity from within. He makes the church and the school a lodging place for every unclean and hateful bird. He leavens the meal with the doctrine of the Sadducees......Sound familliar

All I can ask the reader is to judge the content of my arguments. Your resorting to personal smears speaks volumes as to the content of yours.

 

[jgredline]

All I can ask the reader is to judge the content of my arguments. Your resorting to personal smears speaks volumes as to the content of yours.

I agree with you. Let the reader decide....

That was a pretty cool quote by Criswell was it not. It would do u good to study his stuff.....

 

[Solo]

Drew,
Sadly I sincerely believe that you fall into the catagory described in this verse of Scripture:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Jeff Mills]

"I purchased a book from Mary K. Baxter, "The Divine Revelation of Hell". And although it would be enough to scare yourself silly into Religion, it just seems to be a bit far-fetched to me on what her "revelation" of hell is like. It is awful and I just cannot imagine our God sentencing people to that type of torture.

Has anyone read that book?"

I do not believe the book to be the truth. We need to be careful and check the spirits!

 

[Solo]

"I purchased a book from Mary K. Baxter, "The Divine Revelation of Hell". And although it would be enough to scare yourself silly into Religion, it just seems to be a bit far-fetched to me on what her "revelation" of hell is like. It is awful and I just cannot imagine our God sentencing people to that type of torture.

Has anyone read that book?"

I do not believe the book to be the truth. We need to be careful and check the spirits!

Exactly, and that is not done very much in today's modern world even though we are told to do so.

 

[jgredline]

Well, I do not know much about this mary k baxter, but even if 10% of what I have read about her in the past 30 minutes is true, then this woman has some screws loose.....to put it nicely

Mary Katherine Baxter was chosen by God to let the world know of the REALITY of Hell. Jesus Christ appeared to Mary Baxter on 40 consecutive nights and took Mary on a tour of Hell and Heaven. She walked, with Jesus, through the horrors of Hell and talked with many people. Jesus showed her what happens to souls when they die and what happens to the unbelievers and Servants of God who do not obey there calling.

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Bax ... f_Hell.htm

Anyway, there are some red flags there.....

 

[Solo]

Well, I do not know much about this mary k baxter, but even if 10% of what I have read about her in the past 30 minutes is true, then this woman has some screws loose.....to put it nicely



http://www.spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Bax ... f_Hell.htm

Anyway, there are some red flags there.....

She might be related to Ellen G. White or Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell or Herbert W. Armstrong or ...............

 

[guibox]

I've read much of her nonsense book. Baxter's book is pure clap-trap hokey, warped garbage.

This is the problem with believing in such a false doctrine as eternal torment. The midieval Catholic amalgamation of the words for 'hell' taken at face value in the English have warped Christian thinking for centuries. When you start to believe one lie, it blows up to ridiculous proportions. Such is the wicked fruit of eternal torment.

Sadly, the lies of the doctrine which slander God and make Him and His kingdom stand for evil and cruelty are staunchly defended by those professing to love and know Him as a God of love.

"Woe to thee who call evil good and good evil"

"And he shall say, depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I never knew you"

How can someone know Him when they insist that a God of love and justice must be satisfied with the suffering of His dear children in a hell He created for no other reason but to inflict eternal torture?