What do you think?

[Solo]

I've read much of her nonsense book. Baxter's book is pure clap-trap hokey, warped garbage.

This is the problem with believing in such a false doctrine as eternal torment. The midieval Catholic amalgamation of the words for 'hell' taken at face value in the English have warped Christian thinking for centuries. When you start to believe one lie, it blows up to ridiculous proportions. Such is the wicked fruit of eternal torment.

Sadly, the lies of the doctrine which slander God and make Him and His kingdom stand for evil and cruelty are staunchly defended by those professing to love and know Him as a God of love.

"Woe to thee who call evil good and good evil"

"And he shall say, depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I never knew you"

How can someone know Him when they insist that a God of love and justice must be satisfied with the suffering of His dear children in a hell He created for no other reason but to inflict eternal torture?

Those who are eternally punished are not God's children. Only those who are born of God are God's children. You might do a study on the children of the devil. That might give you some insight into the truth that Jesus speaks of concerning Hades and Gehenna. I hope that you don't get there before you believe.

 

[Drew]

Imagine if you will a courtroom where 2 lawyers are disputing a case. Lawyer B has just finished providing an argument that addresses the actual content of the case. In particular he disputes A's claim that Fred must be the murderer by showing how the facts are equally supportive of Joe being the murderer. When his term comes, what does Lawyer A do? Does he attack B's argument? No, he attack B's character with the following text:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I trust that the point is clear.....

 

[guibox]

Those who are eternally punished are not God's children. Only those who are born of God are God's children. You might do a study on the children of the devil. That might give you some insight into the truth that Jesus speaks of concerning Hades and Gehenna. I hope that you don't get there before you believe.

Solo, we were ALL sinners...estranged from God. God in His love and mercy came down to save us...while we were yet sinners.

Why?

Because He loved us so much!

Now, God's justice must not be swept aside.

Man sinned and man was condemned to DEATH, no a fiery hell that God created. Christ came to take away that penalty for all who believe.

Now just because God's justice must be satisfied, that doesn't mean that His love or mercy is any less for sinners than it was BEFORE Christ came.

So why all of a sudden is God turning into a vindictive, cruel, bloodthirsty tyrant who wants to punish us for all eternity.

Really sit down and think about your logic.

 

[Solo]

Imagine if you will a courtroom where 2 lawyers are disputing a case. Lawyer B has just finished providing an argument that addresses the actual content of the case. In particular he disputes A's claim that Fred must be the murderer by showing how the facts are equally supportive of Joe being the murderer. When his term comes, what does Lawyer A do? Does he attack B's argument? No, he attack B's character with the following text:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I trust that the point is clear.....

The point is very clear. Repentence is available for you to exercise so that you can turn from the fables of your current beliefs, and endure sound doctrine of truth instead.

I trust that this warning is clear.....

 

[Solo]

Solo, we were ALL sinners...estranged from God. God in His love and mercy came down to save us...while we were yet sinners.

Why?

Because He loved us so much!

Now, God's justice must not be swept aside.

Man sinned and man was condemned to DEATH, no a fiery hell that God created. Christ came to take away that penalty for all who believe.

Now just because God's justice must be satisfied, that doesn't mean that His love or mercy is any less for sinners than it was BEFORE Christ came.

So why all of a sudden is God turning into a vindictive, cruel, bloodthirsty tyrant who wants to punish us for all eternity.

Really sit down and think about your logic.

All are condemned to hell fire until they are born again. Only through the path of Jesus Christ is one saved from this eternal punishiment of torment. All who reject God Almighty will spend eternity with satan and his angels who rejected God Almighty before mankind was created. God is not a vindictive, cruel, bloodthirsty tyrant who wants to punish unbelievers for eternity as he has sent a way to escape such punishment. Only those who reject God's love will be punished forever and ever.

 

[Drew]

Please consider the following texts:

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no moreâ€Â

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.â€Â

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.â€Â

I do not think I need to explain how the "plain reading" of these texts support the annihilation of the wicked. These texts (and others in a long list I have posted) provide powerful evidence for the fate of the lost. In order to deal with these texts, it would seem that the "eternal torment" supporter must redefine "be no more" to be "be in a state of eternal torment". Or they must redefine "devour" and "consume" to mean something totally different from their normal meanings.

If this is not enough of a problem, consider Psalm 37:20 and its reference to the fat of the lambs. By making reference to a real physical process , that we can see with our own eyes, whereby fat ends up being burnt away into smoke and then basically nothing, the writer seemingly makes the point unambiguous - the lost are indeed destroyed (in the "turned into nothing sense"). I really would see this a devastating blow to the "eternal hell" position.

What about the new testament references to "everlasting or eternal punishment". Are these equally problematic to the annihilationist perspective?

No they are not and precisely because, as is the case in Psalm 37:20 with the reference to the burning of fat, we have clear Scriptural cases where "eternal" and "everlasting" are shown to be metaphors - the "eternal smoke" from both Edom and Sodom & Gomorrah. We know, from direct empirical evidence, that smoke no longer rises from these places. So we have powerful evidence, in fact the most powerful kind of all - direct "see it with our own eyes evidence", that "eternal" can be used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

 

[Fnerb]

So Drew are you saying that Hell doesn't exist and that unbelivers just cease to exist?

(Sorry, I haven't read the back-log, just looking for a fast-forward clarification)

 

[Drew]

So Drew are you saying that Hell doesn't exist and that unbelivers just cease to exist?

(Sorry, I haven't read the back-log, just looking for a fast-forward clarification)

I am saying that unbelievers are ultimately annihilated. As the Scriptures I have listed clearly teach, this process is likened unto consumption by fire. So I think that the Biblical position is that the unredeemed will indeed experience a kind of "consumption by fire". As these texts indicate, the process is likened to the physical process of burning in our real world - the thing being burned eventually is entirely consumed.

So yes, unbelievers will cease to exist at some point after the consumption by fire has begun, just as is the case with the fat of the lamb or the chaff that is burned.

My entire argument only deals with the fate of unredeemed human beings.

By the way, I hope you did not change your avatar as a result of my quip about how old it implied that you were (from another thread)....... :-D

 

[Guest]

The point is very clear. Repentence is available for you to exercise so that you can turn from the fables of your current beliefs, and endure sound doctrine of truth instead.

I trust that this warning is clear.....

Might I suggest that orthopraxis and orthodoxy must go hand in hand. Unfortunately when we desire orthodoxy above all, we forget about orthopraxis. What is the point of having a detailed map - when one doesn't follow it?

I believe Hans Denck said it best: "No one can truly know Christ except one who follows him in life."

 

[Fnerb]

I am saying that unbelievers are ultimately annihilated. As the Scriptures I have listed clearly teach, this process is likened unto consumption by fire. So I think that the Biblical position is that the unredeemed will indeed experience a kind of "consumption by fire". As these texts indicate, the process is likened to the physical process of burning in our real world - the thing being burned eventually is entirely consumed.

So yes, unbelievers will cease to exist at some point after the consumption by fire has begun, just as is the case with the fat of the lamb or the chaff that is burned.

My entire argument only deals with the fate of unredeemed human beings.

By the way, I hope you did not change your avatar as a result of my quip about how old it implied that you were (from another thread)....... :-D

Hmmm..interesting.

What about text such as The Rich man Lazarus? (Luke 16:19-31)

23 In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

To me (and maybe this isn't biblical) I don't see the torment of hell for an unbeliever ever ending ... which is what I gather from that of an unbeliever "ceasing to exist"

(And yeah, that is where I changed it from ... just trying to play the game :P )

 

[jgredline]

If a person is Born again then he can approach a Holy God through his son Jesus Christ....If a person is not born again, then he is subject to the full ''wrath'' of God.....and his soul will burn in hell and be tormented forever and ever....Yes the Flesh will burn away, but ''not the soul''....

Those that hold to a monistc view, do not have the fear of the Lord, because worst case scenerio, if they don't sqeak into heaven, then they will simply cease to exist.....This is not the mind set of one who is born again....

Folks will say, that how can a ''good'' and ''loving'' God send people to hell for all eternity to be tormented....If this is the case then I don't want to serve this dictator or this ''mean'' God.....Or that was the old God of the OT.....Excuses, excuses excuses.....

The fact is God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow....
The better question is this...How can a Holy God not send those who did not receive his son to Hell to be tormented for ever?.....

I would suggest to all the annihalist to do a study on Romans and in particular take a look at the word ''wrath'' and its context....

Jesus came to save those who would believe and are born again from the wrath of God.......This is what the bible says and teaches......Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Who are we saved from? GOD....What are we saved from? eternal torment with satan and his demons.......This is also in the bible and it is not a metaphore......



Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Rom 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousnessâ€â€indignation and wrath,

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Rom 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,†says the Lord.

Rom 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Rom 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

 

[LittleNipper]

I am curious, what are your interpretations of what hell is like according to scripture?

Some believe hell is death and darkness.

Some believe you will be tortured and tormented by Satan for eternity.

Some believe you will be cast into a lake of fire.

I don't know what to believe! I feel it is hard to even fathom an almighty, loving and all-forgiving God would send his own children to an eternity of torturous death!

:roll:

Since hell is the complete separation from GOD, and the light of the world is JESUS, I see hell as a very black place where lost souls will be tormented with their past (something the saved will not have). The lost will live with their past mistakes and thinking about all their wrong choices. The saved will know only that CHRIST is in their presence forever and that HE loves them forever.... The lost will burn in their own past thoughts alone and the saved will rejoice together in an eternal now.......

 

[Drew]

Hi jg (and others):

The gist of your latest post seems to be that since God clearly will express his wrath on the impenitent, then this wrath must embody eternal conscious torment. This is really only your speculation as to what that wrath will actually be. And, interestingly enough, one of the texts that you quote, Romans 9:22, refers to destruction, not eternal torment.

And besides, the lengthy list of Scriptures that I posted (credit originally to guibox) makes a very powerful case what form that wrath will take - destruction of the impenitent, not eternal torment.

You say that references to eternal torment are not "metaphors". What is your actual case? I have provided a case that they could be metaphors by giving examples of their use where we know, from the historical record, that something that was claimed to be eternal (namely fire and/ smoke) is simply not really eternal.

Edom no longer burns as per Isaiah 34. Sodom and Gomorrah no longer burn as per Jude. So a rather clear precedent, rooted in obvious facts about the world and not speculations, has been set to the effect that "eternal does not always mean eternal".

To believe in annihilation does indeed require a belief that sometimes the word "eternal" is used metaphorically. But we have a Biblical precedent for such usage as I believe has been shown.

On the other hand, to believe in eternal torment requires that death means eternal conscious suffering (as per Romans 6:23) and that the Holy Spirit chose misleading imagery in inspiring all those texts where the fate of the wicked is clearly likened to physical processes that result in something being reduced to nothingness. It seems strange to suggest that these comparisons to physical processes, that all can appreciate and understand, are to be reworked to have a meaning entirely at variance with the physical scenarios that they are based on.

Not to mention texts like this from 1 Corinthians 15:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I assume that we all agree that this text describes an event that is in the future (if not, we can discuss that). It rather clearly says that we who belong to him will be made alive when he comes. If there are souls in heaven right now, which I assume is part of the "eternal torment" position (correct me if I am wrong about this), how will these souls be made any more alive than they already are?.

By being given a body to wrap their already fully conscious souls in?

That hardly qualifies as a transition that counts as "being made alive" - it sounds more like simply putting on a new suit.

 

[Imagican]

Little Nipper,

you may just be 'on to something'. I have avoided this thread for there ARE no 'clear' answers to the question posed. I know that many 'think' that they 'have it all figured out'. And 'more power' to these.

But, we have MUCH indication that one IS simply SEPARATED from the love of God upon their judgement IF they are NOT forgiven, (saved).

I sometimes wonder IF that is NOT enough punishment for ANYONE to endure.

For we SEE plainly the FEAR that MOST have of the 'death of the flesh'. Even those that 'claim' that they have accepted the forgiveness offered seem to FEAR this death MORE than ANYTHING ELSE.

So, when we consider that to be 'unforgiven' IS to be PERMANENTLY and ETERNALLY separated from the 'love of God', that DOES seem to be a pretty extreme punishment. For NOW we simply 'wonder'. But what if you KNEW that you would PERMANENTLY DIE. And at the SAME time that this was revealed you REALIZED that you COULD HAVE made a 'different' decision and could have LIVED. What a 'scary thought'. To DIE PERMANENTLY.

For we who ARE saved KNOW that Jesus Christ DEFEATED death. But ONLY for those that ACCEPT this act. For the others.................???? Who knows, and really, who would wish to 'dwell' on that which does NOT pertain to THEM personally.

We ARE to offer testimony and witness in order to allow OTHERS the opportunity to SHARE that which we have been offered and FREELY accepted. For those that 'choose' a 'different' path, all we can do is HOPE that God IS a merciful God and sees fit to offer them their JUST rewards.

In closing, (I don't want to 'argue' with ANYONE over this issue. Just adding my 'two cents'), there is NO difinitive anwser to this question of 'punishment'. For as there WILL be 'differnt' PLACES in heaven according to the 'treasures' one has built for themselves, there MUST be 'different' places for those that 'are NOT saved'. We don't have the answers to ALL these questions. But try this for a bit of speculation:

We ALL accept the FACT that upon one's death they WILL SLEEP? Right? Judgement will be NO SOONER than a 'thousand years'.This we KNOW, Right? Who's to say that this THOUSAND years is NOT our PUNISHMENT. For one to SPEND a thousand years FACING their actions of this life, NOT having the ability to discern 'time', (darkness, remember?), wouldn't this SEEM like an ETERNITY? And for those that HAVE been forgiven, perhaps their sleep is a restless one that is of PEACE rather than turmoil. A dream verses a NIGHTMARE of MAJOR proportions, if you will. And this nightmare combined with the knowledge that 'once one WAKES UP, it is THEN that they will be PERMANENTLY SEPARATED from the Love of God.

Pretty scary thought to me.

MEC

 

[guibox]

As Drew pointed out, 'fire' is the most destructive force and imagery ever used in the Bible. It is perfect to use for the symbology of the destruction of the wicked.
It is completely illogical and culturally ignorant to take this symbol that 'destroys', 'devours' 'consumes away into smoke' to make it mean a continually burning fire that in actuality, NEVER 'consumes', 'destroys'.

This is calling white black and black white.

And Solo, man was not destined to an eternal burning hell. Man was destined for 'death'. Read Romans 5, read Genesis 3.

What did Christ expereince on the cross? What did He save us from? What did He accomplish for us that we would experience without His saving grace?

DEATH, DEATH, DEATH, DEATH

So what are the fires for?

The fires are for the eradication and complete destruction of the earth and all its works so a new heaven and a new earth can be created.

Punishing is a secondary action.

Punishing precedes destruction and death, the punishment for sin that Christ experienced and was resurrected from.

Look closely at the meaning and purpose of what Christ's death and resurrection was for and what it accomplished. He was resurrected to abolish the power of death over the CHristian that he was held to. Christ did not abolish death so man could burn for eternity.

You completely miss the point of the gospel and what saving grace is for by inserting eternal torment into the picture.

How in the world did we get back on to eternal torment when the topic is the 'immortal soul'?

 

[Solo]

Please consider the following texts:

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

The Psalm is discussing the position of the righteous and the wicked in this life upon the earth. One who bases their doctrines on the poetic prose of the words of the Psalms is great danger of being deceived. Psalm 37 also says the the wicked "shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb" (verse 2), they shall be "shall be cut off" (verse 9), "Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken" (verse 15), their arms "shall be broken" (verse 17), and their seed "shall be cut off" (verse 28).

The whole point of Psalm 37 is to encourage the righteous and to explain that the wicked will not profit in this life or the life ahead. The wicked will no longer have any of God's blessings, and as they tormented the righteous in this life their wickedness would cease.

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no moreâ€Â

Again, one day their will be no wickedness on the earth, as the righteous will inherit the earth as Psalm 37 states. The wicked will be no longer as they will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night. The lake of fire is in the deepest reaches of Sheol/Hades and there the fire will burn forever and the poor souls of those who once lived on earth will be given over to everlasting punishment. Remember that the Hebrew word translated consumed means end, finished, done. No more wickedness will be upon the earth.

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.â€Â

Again, the wicked will be consumed from the earth and will not remain with the righteous. Let us look at verses 10, 11, and 12 so that verse 9 can be understood in context.

10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men. 11 For they intended evil against thee: they imagined a mischievous device, which they are not able to perform. 12 Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them.

I do not believe that the poetic prose of Psalm 21 really means that God will have a bow with arrows ready to shoot at the wicked; and verse 10 says that the wicked will be destroyed from the earth. Ending up in the lake of fire can sure be considered being destroyed from the earth.

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.â€Â

And the wicked were devoured or ate up with the fire that God removed the wicked from the earth. The physical bodies are destroyed, but as we see in Luke 16, the soul of the individual is tormented in fire and not devoured as the body is.

I do not think I need to explain how the "plain reading" of these texts support the annihilation of the wicked. These texts (and others in a long list I have posted) provide powerful evidence for the fate of the lost. In order to deal with these texts, it would seem that the "eternal torment" supporter must redefine "be no more" to be "be in a state of eternal torment". Or they must redefine "devour" and "consume" to mean something totally different from their normal meanings.

If this is not enough of a problem, consider Psalm 37:20 and its reference to the fat of the lambs. By making reference to a real physical process , that we can see with our own eyes, whereby fat ends up being burnt away into smoke and then basically nothing, the writer seemingly makes the point unambiguous - the lost are indeed destroyed (in the "turned into nothing sense"). I really would see this a devastating blow to the "eternal hell" position.

What about the new testament references to "everlasting or eternal punishment". Are these equally problematic to the annihilationist perspective?

No they are not and precisely because, as is the case in Psalm 37:20 with the reference to the burning of fat, we have clear Scriptural cases where "eternal" and "everlasting" are shown to be metaphors - the "eternal smoke" from both Edom and Sodom & Gomorrah. We know, from direct empirical evidence, that smoke no longer rises from these places. So we have powerful evidence, in fact the most powerful kind of all - direct "see it with our own eyes evidence", that "eternal" can be used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Your misconception of the end of the wicked is determined on your understanding because of the false teaching of mankind not having a soul apart from the body. Your position is one that believes that the physical realm is the whole thing as far as man is concerned. That understanding weighs heavily in the department of unbelief, as well as hinging on not understanding the spiritual realm as is the case with all those who are only blessed with being born of the flesh. One day my friend, when you decide to follow Jesus Christ and His teachings, then you will have your understanding opened up in ways that you cannot even imagine. God bless.

 

[guibox]

Your misconception of the end of the wicked is determined on your understanding because of the false teaching of mankind not having a soul apart from the body. Your position is one that believes that the physical realm is the whole thing as far as man is concerned.

Yes we believe this for this is what the Bible teaches and this was how the Hebrews understood the nature of man. Nowhere is there ANY support for 'immortality of the soul'. It is not found in phrase or concept. Wishing it were so and using convoluted reasoning that doesn't support the lingustics or context of the text won't change that obvious fact that you continually choose to ignore.

Nowhere in the scriptures doe sit say that immortality or eternal life is granted to the wicked in any way. Eternal life is a gift of God given (not inherently possessed) to the righteous and the righteous only.

This concept alone you cannot explain or disprove at all. The biblical evidence is against you.

Dualism is a Greek concept. Body/soul split is a Greek/Babylonian concept. It is not Hebrew and it is not a Christian one. Man is a wholistic being which dies together and is reconstituted together at the resurrection.

1) Death is conquered only at the resurrection and not at our physical death
** 1 Corinthians 15:23.53-54

2) Man rests in the grave awaiting this resurrection power
** Job 14-10-14; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29; 1 Corinthians 15

3) Without the resurrection, there would be no eternal life or hope at all
** 1 Corinthians 15:12-19,32

What don't you fully understand about the above scriptures, Solo and jg? How in the world can you say that there is no life or hope without the resurrection but still say that my 'true life and essence' (hence my true hope) is already realized in heaven at my physical death, long before the resurrection?

Quit ignoring scripture to impose Greek theology on terms and texts where it doesn't say or support it at all!

 

[Drew]

If I am not mistaken, Solo's take on the texts that refer to "consumption", "devouring" and "being no more" of the wicked really refer to only their removal from the earth, and they continue on in a state of conscious existence and torment.

I think such a view does not work because the Scriptures do not teach of the existence of an immortal soul. Of course, that issue has been debated extensively. But let's suppose, for the sake argument, that there is indeed an immaterial soul that lives on after death.

Psalm 37:20 says that the "wicked shall perish". Psalm 104 says that the sinners will "be no more". For Solo's position to work these texts need to be read as "the bodies of the wicked shall perish" and "the bodies of the sinners shall be be no more". This is always a possibility but I am left wondering why the texts do not directly tell us that it is the body (and not the soul) that is perishing, if indeed there is such a soul-body distinction.

However, while this position has the ring of plausibility it really cannot be squared with 1 Corinthians, where Paul writes as follows:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

As I wrote earlier, I do not see how this text can be made to work with the notion that believers are presently in a state of conscious bliss in heaven. If Fred is already in heaven, then being "made alive" at Christ's return reallly amounts to little more than putting on a new "suit of imperishable flesh" over an already fully conscious soul. Hardly a transition that merits the description of being made alive that Paul gives us.

This, to me, is a powerful argument against the notion of an immortal soul, and Solo's position needs an immortal soul. So while his view has a ring of plausibility, the plausbility fades if one can be convinced of the non-existence of the immortal soul. The 1 Corinthians texts is just one part of what I think is a very strong Biblical case against the existence of such an immaterial component to the human person.

 

[jgredline]

OK
Drew, guibox and others out there who want to know the truth of what the scriptures teach regarding eternal torment...


let me try and make this simple. I ran this by Daniel my seven year old and he understood it, so you would think that if a seven year old gets it, surely adults will get it.....

For the sake of context, lets look at Romans 5:6-11 but will be focusing on verse 9...This is from the ESV
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous personâ€â€though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

What Paul is about to say is even more amazing and wonderful. justified.....What does it mean to be justified? To put it plainly and simply, it means that if you are born again, then you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and you are now a child of God...If you are a child of God, then there is nothing that can seperate you from the love that is Christ Jesus....You are saved.....Saved from What? You are saved from the wrath of God.....Verse 9....Who is NOT saved from the wrath of God?

Lets take a look at 1 john 3:4-9 and this is from the NKJV...
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

OK, A couple of quick notes and we can discuss these passages further for those may have questions, but for the sake of addressing this post I will skip some of the issues that are not related to this thread...
1) When John uses the word commit sin here, In the Greek it means to habitually sin...To live in sin....The english translations do not do this part of the verse justice, because we all sin....

1 john 3:10-12
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

2) John is making it very clear in these verses that you are either a Child of God or a Child of the devil.... If your not born again you are a child of the devil....This is not my opinion, but this is what the bible says.....Jesus also said, you are with me or your against me...It is up to each person to decide if he wants to be a child of God or a Child of the devil....It is up to each person to decide if he wants to live forever with Jesus or be tormented for ever in the flames of HELL....

So what is ''THE WRATH OF GOD'' ?
Lets take a look at what the bible clearly says and teaches on what it is....
First lets see what Jesus has to say about this.....

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€Â

Rev 20:7-15
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So anyone who is not found in the lambs book of life will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his homies....

Now lets take a look at one more scripture before I need to go to work...

1 john3:13-15
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If death is what the annihalsit say it is and it means to ''destroy'', then how is it that we can pass from death to life?...if we have been destroyed...Does it make sense no......The wages of sin is death....The body dies, but the soul will live in torment forever and ever.....

The real question here is this....
Are you a sheep or a goat?

 

[Drew]

Consider also the following differences between either cessation of consciousness/annihilation and punishment: (1) There are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22;

This does no damage to the annihiliation position, at least to the version of it that I think is correct. In my opinion, the Scriptures do indeed teach degrees of punishment. But there is no need to assume that these degrees are played out in an eternal hell. I think that the process of annihilation is indeed one which will visit punishment on the unrepentent. Annihilation is not accomplished in a snap of God's fingers. For some, this process will be worse according to the measure of their deeds.

Since the process of annihilation involve varying degrees of punishment, the argument that these texts are at variance with the annihilation position is not valid. In fact, in the example of Matthew 10:15 we have (my bolding):

"I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town"

If anything, this particular text suggests punishment that is time-focused - on the day of judgement. The Matthew 11 text also refers to the day of judgement.