What do you think?

[Drew]

Hello jg:

The first 80% of your post seems to boil down to an appeal to old arguments that have bean addressed over and over. We have shown conclusively that there is Biblical precedent for the use of the term "forever" as a poetic exaggeration. Here is yet another example from 1 Samuel:

"Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow.

But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever."

If you wish to argue that the "there" in the last phrase is not a physical place (but is rather a reference to "heaven"), I think that is a debate you will lose, but we'll see.

It appears that you are trying make a theology out these limited references to "eternal torment" when there are so many other texts that indicate that the end of impenitent man is death. I will let the reader judge between the two following options:

1. Accept the use of "poetic exaggeration" in respect to references to "forever" in texts like Revelation 20, with such acceptance justified by clear Bibical precedent for such exaggeration (as in Isaiah 34 and 1 Samuel and Jude) and defer to the relatively lengthy list of texts which assert that impetinent man will "be no more"; or

2. Take the "eternal torment" texts literally (there are only a few of them), and redefine "death" (as per Romans 6:23) to mean "eternal torment", redefine "be no more" to mean "have your body be no more", dismiss as misleading all the Biblical references to clear physical processes which result in something being reduced to nothing, and decide that Paul's glorious 1 Corinthians 15 text about being "made alive" at the time of the resurrection to really means to "wrap an already fully conscious soul in a new suit of imperishable flesh".

1 John3:13-15
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If death is what the annihalsit say it is and it means to ''destroy'', then how is it that we can pass from death to life?...if we have been destroyed...Does it make sense no......The wages of sin is death....The body dies, but the soul will live in torment forever and ever.....

Let's see what the text actually says here. The evidence of having passed from death to life is the "loving the brethren". So this transition can and does occur during "this life". Jg's argument cannot work precisely because we know that people are not in an annihilated state when they transition to from "not loving the brethren" to "loving the brethren"

So while it would support jg's argument to force the annihilationist to admit to a transition from a state of non-existence into life (this indeed would be problematic for the annihilationist), this text clearly shows that the transition in question occurs in this life - at the time we love the brethren. So there is nothing for the annihilationist to justify. If the text suggested that we transition from death to life after being annihilated, jg would indeed have a point.

But the text shows that the transition, if it occurs at all, take place during this life.

 

[guibox]

What jg and others are trying to prove with the whole 'death to life' and 'dying while living' is to 'prove' that when the bible says 'destroy' it doesn't mean a physical, eternal death but a 'spiritual death' where you can be 'dead but alive'.

Such a creative invention is necessary to support the foreign notion that the soul is immortal, but not biblical in speaking of our nature in the afterlife. Simply because I pass from 'death to life' doesn't mean that this is what the afterlife is all about.

According to the bible, we do not receive eternal life until the resurrection. Hence, even though I have passed from 'death to life' having the merits of Christ's sacrifice apply to me, I am not an immortal person by nature.

Don't confuse 'abundant life' and becmong a 'new creature' with our physiological make up and our sinful nature that will die eternally.

Romans 6:23 makes it quite plain that 'death' is the opposite of 'new life'. Taken to their extremems, those who do not pass from 'death to life' on this earth will expereince the continuation of the death that sin brought, and it isn't a spiritual death in the form of an immortal soul. Eternal life is what the righteous expereince. This is immortality. This is the realization of the fruits of Christ and the fulfillment of the promise. The wages of sin is the OPPOSITE of this.

It is 'death' ,'destruction', 'perishing', 'be no more' 'consuming into smoke', 'being consumed' being 'devoured'. It is the second death brought on by the punishing fires.

It is DEATH as the Bible clearly uses it. Complete and total destruction and annihilation so sin will no longer live in any form and 'all things are made new' so there will be 'no more pain' or 'death' for the 'former things have passed away'.

This includes no more sin or pain for sinners for they are the 'former things' which have 'passed away'.

Somehow this simple message doesn't get through to people so steeped in Greek theology they miss the plain teaching of the scripture.

 

[stranger]

A question for Annihilationists.

What is the fate of the Devil and his demons at the end of the age? Will they suffer eternally? My thought is that they are spiritual entities not physical ones so how are they to be annihilated?

 

[Drew]

A question for Annihilationists.

What is the fate of the Devil and his demons at the end of the age? Will they suffer eternally? My thought is that they are spiritual entities not physical bodies so how are they to be annihilated?

My short answer is "I have no opinion". I have focussed on the issue of the fate of men, and of the intimately related issue of the existence or non-existence of an immortal soul. Cleary, the devil and the demons are not men.

 

[jgredline]

A question for Annihilationists.

What is the fate of the Devil and his demons at the end of the age? Will they suffer eternally? My thought is that they are spiritual entities not physical bodies so how are they to be annihilated?

This is a great question.....If we look at rev 20 and look at the context from verse 7-15 clearly the answer is given to us......

 

[Solo]

My short answer is "I have no opinion". I have focussed on the issue of the fate of men, and of the intimately related issue of the existence or non-existence of an immortal soul. Cleary, the devil and the demons are not men.

Exactly, they are spiritual just as the soul and spirit of man. The misunderstanding of the spiritual aspect of man cannot be determined by looking through the physical for answers. Thank you for admitting this shortcoming. Not many would have the courage.

 

[stranger]

My short answer is "I have no opinion". I have focussed on the issue of the fate of men, and of the intimately related issue of the existence or non-existence of an immortal soul. Cleary, the devil and the demons are not men.

Hi Drew,

Ok, we know that 'flesh and blood' shall not inherit the kingdom of God and we know what happens to our bodies . . . they are dust and to dust they shall return. . . But there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust and both receive their rewards at the end of the age and this is not in the physical bodies that we have presently. First comes the physical and then the spiritual. So in hell - do we not find the 'spiritual' receiving their reward for their deeds?

While I know that you have focused on 'men' but there is a bigger picture that God reveals - plug man into the bigger picture and the realities of heaven and hell will not be so objectionable. Nor does the notion of hell in any way make God anything but what He is and so . . God is love but 'He is not like one of us' as Jeremiah says.

 

[Drew]

Exactly, they are spiritual just as the soul and spirit of man. The misunderstanding of the spiritual aspect of man cannot be determined by looking through the physical for answers. Thank you for admitting this shortcoming. Not many would have the courage.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's be clear. I have not changed my position that the scriptures teach that man does not have an immortal soul. It is you who believe in the immortal soul of humans, not me. What, exactly, do you think I have admitted?

 

[Drew]

Ok, we know that 'flesh and blood' shall not inherit the kingdom of God and we know what happens to our bodies . . . they are dust and to dust they shall return. . . But there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust and both receive their rewards at the end of the age and this is not in the physical bodies that we have presently. First comes the physical and then the spiritual. So in hell - do we not find the 'spiritual' receiving their reward for their deeds?

While I know that you have focused on 'men' but there is a bigger picture that God reveals - plug man into the bigger picture and the realities of heaven and hell will not be so objectionable. Nor does the notion of hell in any way make God anything but what He is and so . . God is love but 'He is not like one of us' as Jeremiah says.

Hi stranger:

To me, the 1 Corinthians text is entirely consistent with the following view:

1. Those of us who are alive in this world right now have a body of a certain kind. This is not from the text - it is a rather obvious fact.

2. We all die. Our bodies disintegrate. Again, not a matter of scripture, but a matter of the manifestly obvious.

3. At some point in the future, all humans will be resurrected (as you assert). At this point all humans will have a "body" - not necessarily the same kind of body as we have now, but a "physical" body nonetheless.

4. The bodies of the unredeemed are destroyed and they, as conscious entities disappear forever. The bodies of the redeemed are "perfected", but they remain essentially "physical" in nature.

5. The redeemed live on forever.

Are you sure that you are not bringing to the 1 Corinthians text a pre-conception that a "spiritual" or "heavenly" body is not a "physical" body? What about Jesus' resurrection body? That is a "physical" body - it can seen and touched and walk around. But it is of a different type -entirely consistent with what Paul is saying.

Do you not think that Jesus' resurrected body, as seen by various witnesses is an indication that we too will have very "physical" bodies in the life to come?

I am convinced that, steeped as we are in Greek ideas about the dualist nature of man, we read the word "spirit" and immediately assume that reference is being made to an immaterial essence. I submit to you that when Paul refers to a "spiritual body", he is still referring to something with "physicality", just a perfected form. So at the end of time, the redemption of man has come full circle. The "perfected" physicality that was intended for man has been restored.

 

[Solo]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's be clear. I have not changed my position that the scriptures teach that man does not have an immortal soul. It is you who believe in the immortal soul of humans, not me. What, exactly, do you think I have admitted?

You admitted to not knowing what happens to the devil and his angels, and your position on man is that he is a physical being only. Since you do not have an opinion on the state of the spiritual beings gives the impression that you do not know. To advance the state of not knowing the position of the spiritual beings gives credence that your understanding of man's spiritual make up is lacking as well. Perhaps I was wrong in reading that you admitted to not understanding the spiritual state of God's creation.

 

[stranger]

Hi stranger:

To me, the 1 Corinthians text is entirely consistent with the following view:

1. Those of us who are alive in this world right now have a body of a certain kind. This is not from the text - it is a rather obvious fact.

The text behind my thought arises from the creation of man and his demise found in Genesis. Man was made in God's image after God's likeness - the physical demise was a result of sin entering in. So key texts are Genesis 1-3 and Rom 5.

2. We all die. Our bodies disintegrate. Again, not a matter of scripture, but a matter of the manifestly obvious.

Again the observation that all die - has various interpretations - for the Hindu - it is just a question of reincarnation - but for the Christian what we observe in the world has to be understood in terms of what God has revealed.

3. At some point in the future, all humans will be resurrected (as you assert). At this point all humans will have a "body" - not necessarily the same kind of body as we have now, but a "physical" body nonetheless.

While I agree that the resurrected will have a body (on the basis that the tomb of our Lord was empty) it was a spiritual body - and the principle first comes the physical then the spiritual - so I would say 'a spiritual body nonetheless while not denying that this spiritual body has reference to the old physical body which for most will have become 'dust'.

4. The bodies of the unredeemed are destroyed and they, as conscious entities disappear forever. The bodies of the redeemed are "perfected", but they remain essentially "physical" in nature.

This part is your interpretation - both are resurrected as you have said - I would add that the 'bodies' of the unredeemed are 'imperfected' - the reaching of imperfection - arrested at one point by the flood - will be allowed to continue unarrested.

5. The redeemed live on forever.

Agreed. The unredeemed die forever.

Are you sure that you are not bringing to the 1 Corinthians text a pre-conception that a "spiritual" or "heavenly" body is not a "physical" body? What about Jesus' resurrection body? That is a "physical" body - it can seen and touched and walk around. But it is of a different type -entirely consistent with what Paul is saying.

I have said previously that no one has been able to furnish a satisfactory explanation of soul and spirit - so there remains a tentativeness in my approach. Having admitted this - I rely a lot upon the overall tenure of scripture - taking it all into account - the whole sense of it.

Do you not think that Jesus' resurrected body, as seen by various witnesses is an indication that we too will have very "physical" bodies in the life to come?

I think we will be like Him - but not having seen the resurrected Christ I can't offer you a first hand testimony. He did say to a woman - do not handle me for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Yet He appeared to Thomas to grant special privilege to touch Him.

I am convinced that, steeped as we are in Greek ideas about the dualist nature of man, we read the word "spirit" and immediately assume that reference is being made to an immaterial essence. I submit to you that when Paul refers to a "spiritual body", he is still referring to something with "physicality", just a perfected form. So at the end of time, the redemption of man has come full circle. The "perfected" physicality that was intended for man has been restored.

I think scripture is not afraid of dualism, good and evil (deeds of men), light and dark, righteousness and unrighteousness,rich and poor, heaven and hell etc. At what point can I deny one component of a dualism and still hold to the other without suffering a discontinuity of thought?

 

[jgredline]

OK
Drew, guibox and others out there who want to know the truth of what the scriptures teach regarding eternal torment...


let me try and make this simple. I ran this by Daniel my seven year old and he understood it, so you would think that if a seven year old gets it, surely adults will get it.....

For the sake of context, lets look at Romans 5:6-11 but will be focusing on verse 9...This is from the ESV
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous personâ€â€though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

What Paul is about to say is even more amazing and wonderful. justified.....What does it mean to be justified? To put it plainly and simply, it means that if you are born again, then you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and you are now a child of God...If you are a child of God, then there is nothing that can seperate you from the love that is Christ Jesus....You are saved.....Saved from What? You are saved from the wrath of God.....Verse 9....Who is NOT saved from the wrath of God?
Quote:
Lets take a look at 1 John 3:4-9 and this is from the NKJV...
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

OK, A couple of quick notes and we can discuss these passages further for those may have questions, but for the sake of addressing this post I will skip some of the issues that are not related to this thread...
1) When John uses the word commit sin here, In the Greek it means to habitually sin...To live in sin....The english translations do not do this part of the verse justice, because we all sin....
Quote:
1 John 3:10-12
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

2) John is making it very clear in these verses that you are either a Child of God or a Child of the devil.... If your not born again you are a child of the devil....This is not my opinion, but this is what the bible says.....Jesus also said, you are with me or your against me...It is up to each person to decide if he wants to be a child of God or a Child of the devil....It is up to each person to decide if he wants to live forever with Jesus or be tormented for ever in the flames of HELL....

So what is ''THE WRATH OF GOD'' ?
Lets take a look at what the bible clearly says and teaches on what it is....
First lets see what Jesus has to say about this.....

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€Â

Rev 20:7-15
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So anyone who is not found in the lambs book of life will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his homies....

1 John3:13-15
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If death is what the annihalsit say it is and it means to ''destroy'', then how is it that we can pass from death to life?...if we have been destroyed...Does it make sense no......The wages of sin is death....The body dies, but the soul will live in torment forever and ever.....


The real question here is this....
Are you a sheep or a goat?

 

[guibox]

jg, you're repeating yourself and, like always, ignoring the responses. I addressed this near the bottom of page 7.

Do you like to hear youself talk or do you actually want to communicate?

Being spiritually alive or dead does not negate the physical and anthropological destiny of man. We are made immortal as a person or we perish as a person. We are not saved in body or soul. We are re-created with a spiritual body and the whole man is granted eternal life.

Same as the wicked man. Though he is spiritually dead without the renewing grace of Christ, his entire person is on a crash course with death (as was the intended purpose of the effects of sin).

What you are saying is that his body dies but his soul lives on, though 'dead'...which really means 'alive'...but not his body even though that is just as riddled with the effects of sin...ummm. :-?

Death is death is death, jg. Death does not mean eternal life, it does not mean a meaningless existence. The wages of sin is death but the opposite is immortality.

The wicked do not receive Christ, they are not His sheep, they have not accepted the Son...therefore, they are NOT granted immortality like the righteous. They are not given renewed life here, they are not promised eternal life in the afterlife.

They suffer the wages of sin which is death, not eternal torment. Gehenna fires at the end are a means to an end. The fires of hell eradicate sin, the evil world and ALL THE WORKS THEREIN including sinners. (2 Peter 3:9,10,13) Thus God can truly make 'all things new'.

Someday you'll see the truth.

 

[jgredline]

jg, you're repeating yourself and, like always, ignoring the responses. I addressed this near the bottom of page 7.

Do you like to hear youself talk or do you actually want to communicate?

Hmmm, I thought you said you were going to ignore me as If I did not exist....I guess I kinda grow on you ha.

Being spiritually alive or dead does not negate the physical and anthropological destiny of man. We are made immortal as a person or we perish as a person. We are not saved in body or soul. We are re-created with a spiritual body and the whole man is granted eternal life.

No, you are wrong. This body that you and I have is mortal and will turn to dust, as the saying goes, ashes to ashes and dust to dust, HOWEVER, since we are a dichotomy or a Trichotomy, the Soul/spirit will go onto eternal life with Jesus or eternal Hell with Satan....

Same as the wicked man. Though he is spiritually dead without the renewing grace of Christ, his entire person is on a crash course with death (as was the intended purpose of the effects of sin).

You see Guibox, You ''almost'' got it right here.....unless by Grace you mean Holy Spirit......If this is the case, when this wicked man receives the Spirit of Christ/God, he then is born again. When he dies, his mortal body will be gone, but his spirit and soul will now go back to God and live with him forever.....If this wicked man does not receive the Holy Spirit, then his mortal body is still gone, but his soul will be tormented with the devil forever......

What you are saying is that his body dies but his soul lives on, though 'dead'...which really means 'alive'...but not his body even though that is just as riddled with the effects of sin...ummm. :-?

Yes, this is clearly what the bible says and teaches. If you have a problem with this, then take it up with God, for it is his word.....

Death is death is death, jg. Death does not mean eternal life, it does not mean a meaningless existence. The wages of sin is death but the opposite is immortality.

The wages of sin is death.....When a person is born, he is both soul and body....While the body will die, the soul has immortality....It will spend it for all eternity with God or the devil....

The wicked do not receive Christ, they are not His sheep, they have not accepted the Son...therefore, they are NOT granted immortality like the righteous. They are not given renewed life here, they are not promised eternal life in the afterlife.

...What do u mean....Jesus said they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...I am not kidding, read Matt 25....or rev 20...Don't shoot the messenger. If you have a problem, take it up with Jesus....He is the one who said it.

They suffer the wages of sin which is death, not eternal torment. Gehenna fires at the end are a means to an end. The fires of hell eradicate sin, the evil world and ALL THE WORKS THEREIN including sinners. (2 Peter 3:9,10,13) Thus God can truly make 'all things new'.

mmmmm, no you are wrong again.....

Someday you'll see the truth

I just hope your not asking me to dip my finger in water and asking me for a sip. :wink:

 

[guibox]

No, you are wrong. This body that you and I have is mortal and will turn to dust, as the saying goes, ashes to ashes and dust to dust, HOWEVER, since we are a dichotomy or a Trichotomy, the Soul/spirit will go onto eternal life with Jesus or eternal Hell with Satan....

:roll: Are you going to also quote the Catholic catechism for this fine discourse of Greek theology? - because it sounds right out of the Dark Ages and definitely not out of the scriptures. Satan is not in 'hell' and there is no 'torment' going on. Tartaros is not Hades and Hades is not Gehenna. The wicked are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished (2 Peter 2:9) when and only when they are resurrected, not at their physical death (John 5:28,29 Revelation 20:5, 13-15). And they definitely aren't sharing bunk beds with Satan and his minions.

When he dies, his mortal body will be gone, but his spirit and soul will now go back to God and live with him forever

Boy, I sure would love to see the biblical proof for this. It isn't in 2 Corinthians 5:8 which supports the bodily resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15.

And I'm still wondering how you can explain how 'the spirit goes back to God who gave' it is NEVER used ONLY for the 'righteous man'. You still haven't explained the fact that Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 say that it is the 'spirit' of ALL men that goes back to God.

So tell me, jg...are you promoting universalism? Because if you see both Stephen's and Christ's 'spirit that is given to God' as their immortal souls, you must say that both the righteous and wicked are going to heaven for this is what it says happens to the 'spirit'. you must also explain how in the world Christ's soul went to heaven when He was in the grave, resurrected and THEN 'ascended to the Father'. You also ignore that the Bible clarifies what it means to 'give up the spirit'. In Jesus' case the scriptures says 'And Jesus breathed His last'. In Stephen's case it says 'And Stephen fell asleep'.

Brushing aside this verse to stick to you guns doesn't help your case at all except in your own mind.

Again, your convulted logic and misinterpretation of what the 'soul' and 'spirit' is in the Bible creates complete contradictions that you cannot explain and simply ignore.

from guibox
The wicked do not receive Christ, they are not His sheep, they have not accepted the Son...therefore, they are NOT granted immortality like the righteous. They are not given renewed life here, they are not promised eternal life in the afterlife.

...What do u mean....Jesus said they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...I am not kidding, read Matt 25....or rev 20...Don't shoot the messenger. If you have a problem, take it up with Jesus....He is the one who said it.

You are working backwards, jg. You are imposing your own interpretation on this passage and then reading that into everything else. Well, it says 'tormented day and night forever' so therefore the wicked MUST have immortality.' This then taints all the other texts that say the opposite. You must take the clear passages and use those to interpret the metaphorical and ambiguous ones. The weight of the evidence shows that the wicked do not have immortality. Hence your interpretation of Revelation 14 is incorrect.

This is further proven as Drew and I have pointed out, that thelanguage used here has clear explanation elsewhere in the Bible where John borrowed it from. THe language used is temporal and symbolic of annihilaton and complete destruction. So your initial interpretation is faulty. You cannot then take this to negate all the rest of the scripture that say the opposite.

That is not exegesis, jg...it's a hermeneutical mess.

from guibox They suffer the wages of sin which is death, not eternal torment. Gehenna fires at the end are a means to an end. The fires of hell eradicate sin, the evil world and ALL THE WORKS THEREIN including sinners. (2 Peter 3:9,10,13) Thus God can truly make 'all things new'.

mmmmm, no you are wrong again.....

Not sure how you can say that when it is as plain as day here and in other places...oh yeah! A highly metaphorical passage such as Revelation 14:10,11 which, BTW, just so happens to use the exact same language elsewhere to support annihilation! Hmmm...something else that you can conveniently ignore!

Hmmm, I thought you said you were going to ignore me as If I did not exist....I guess I kinda grow on you ha.

And at the rate you are ignoring the inconsistencies you've created and ignored and can't explain the clear biblical evidence both linguistically and contextually that man is a wholistic being and is given immortality at the resurrection and not at his physical death, then it looks like this ignoring will go into serious effect soon enough.

 

[Drew]

I think scripture is not afraid of dualism, good and evil (deeds of men), light and dark, righteousness and unrighteousness,rich and poor, heaven and hell etc. At what point can I deny one component of a dualism and still hold to the other without suffering a discontinuity of thought?

Are you suggesting that because our world is "dualistic" in certain ways that this is evidence that we should see dualism in basically everything? Why is God have a "three-ness" and not a "two-ness" nature then?

In some of your examples - rich and poor, light and dark - there really is no dualism anyway. Being poor is to have no money - there are not two kinds of things here, just one - money. Same thing with light and dark. Darkness is the absence of light, not the presence of "darkness", and so on.

In fact, I would submit that what often appears to be dualism is actually monism. We take our metahpors too seriously and conclude that the world is dualistic when the real situation is that there is only one kind of thing and the real issue is its absence or presence.

 

[Drew]

Agreed. The unredeemed die forever.

I assume that in your mind, death = conscious existence for the unredeemed. Do you not feel that such a deviation from the nominal sense of death is just too much of a stretch? I see the Scriptures as teaching that death is the end of existence. If this were not otherwise clear, the Scriptures uses all kinds of analogies to physical processes of destruction to drive home the point.

To accept the eternal torment view, one has to interpret statement like the "wicked will be no more" as "the wicked person's body will be no more but the real conscious, feeling, thinking part of them - their soul - lives on".

This sounds like saying interpreting "Fred will be no more" as "Fred will continue to live on, with only his clothes being destroyed".

We have not even begun to critique the "eternal torment" position in terms of this issue - how numerous texts of the form "the wicked will be consumed", "the wicked will be no more" ,etc. all are really statements about the somewhat "incidental" suit of flesh that their real essence (their soul) is wrapped in.

All these numerous texts indicating destruction of the wicked have to be subject to a very awkward interpretation where the "real essence" is not destroyed, only an outward shell. This is a very strange state of affairs. Would the Holy Spirit inspire all these texts about destruction if the only thing that is destroyed is the "suit of clothes" that houses the essence of the person - their soul?

 

[Free]

Would the Holy Spirit inspire all these texts about destruction if the only thing that is destroyed is the "suit of clothes" that houses the essence of the person - their soul?

Would Jesus give the "parable" of Lazarus and the Rich Man if one didn't live on after death (Luke 16:19-31)? Would Jesus mention that man can destroy the body only but God can cast one into hell after killing the body if there were no soul to destroy, if there were no conscious existence after death (Luke 12:4-5)? Would Jesus mention that those who knew the will of the master and didn't do it would receive a severe beating at the master's return if people simply cease to exist after death (Luke 12:46-48)?

 

[guibox]

Would Jesus give the "parable" of Lazarus and the Rich Man if one didn't live on after death (Luke 16:19-31)? Would Jesus mention that man can destroy the body only but God can cast one into hell after killing the body if there were no soul to destroy, if there were no conscious existence after death (Luke 12:4-5)? Would Jesus mention that those who knew the will of the master and didn't do it would receive a severe beating at the master's return if people simply cease to exist after death (Luke 12:46-48)?

Free, even if this parable could be taken literally, NOWHERE does it say that it is the 'disembodied soul' of the rich man and Lazarus that experience torment. Rather we see that they are given bodily characteristics all through. Nowhere does it say 'and their spirit went to live in Hades' or 'there soul left their body and descended to Hades'.

This is why you cannot make this parable mean 'immediate life after death' because it presupposes the existence of a soul but doesn't support it one iota. Instead we see that this parable even in its metaphor supports the view that it is the whole man that goes down to Hades and not my immortal soul that leaves my body to go there.

Plus, Drew's conclusions on the 'essence being wrapped up in clothes' are valid and need to be explained by scripture and logic. Sadly, everyone keeps ignoring the inconsistencies both he and I continually bring up.

 

[guibox]

The whole counsel of God's Word shows that the body and soul and spirit are distinct parts of the man, and the soul of the individual is that which goes to sheol awaiting the resurrection while the body decays in the ground, and the spirit returns to God from where it came. Simple. If it isn't simple it must be twisted.

So what is it, Solo.

How int he world can one 'essence of man' go to Sheol but the other 'essence' goes to God. So you have TWO souls now?

Come on.

Either the body is a shell and the soul/spirit is the same thing which goes to God or the whole man dies. The Bible supports the latter and defintely doesn't support your notion as is traditionally believed of the soul.

Did you notice that the 'spirit goes back to God' is for ALL men and occurs both BEFORE Christ died and was resurrected AND after? So how oculd Christ come to 'free the spirits in prison' when Ecclesiastes has already said that their 'spirits have gone back to God' long before Christ supposedly freed them from Sheol?

I await your explanation.