What does it mean to be "In Christ?"

[gordon777]

Then our justification is not of Christ, but of our faith, isn't it? If we maintain our justification by faith, then it is our faith, not our Saviour, by which we are justified. This seems to me to be what is implied by your statement here.



We trust in Christ as our justification. In him, we are justified, his perfect righteousness is imputed to us, and we are, thereby, made acceptable to God. But having been justified, we are fundamentally changed, and adopted into God's family, and cannot go back to what we were before, no matter how we live. A caterpillar that has become a butterfly, has been changed such that, even if it were to behave like the caterpillar it used to be, it would still be a butterfly. Some things - like God making us alive spiritually and adopting us as His own - cannot be reversed or undone.



Well, the believers at Corinth show that this isn't the case. They had been spiritually circumcised and yet were carnal, sinful people. Their sin didn't dissolve their adoption into God's family, however (though, it did greatly hinder their fellowship with Him). So, spiritual circumcision can't be undone by disobedience, but not because the "circumcised" can't disobey, but because they can't undo God's work upon them.



Well, then there are verses like the following that clarify and qualify the ones here that you've offered:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From the ESV:

1 John 3:9-10
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

From the NASB:

1 John 3:9-10 (NASB)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

As has been pointed out many times, John was speaking to a habit, or persistent practice, of sinning, to a life of sin, not to a believer who is struggling with sin, trying to overcome it, and sometimes falling into it. Many want to make John say something about sin in the verses above that directly contradicts many other parts of Scripture - like Paul's letter to the Corinthians or Galatians.

Yes Tenchi it is our faith that justifies us, and Jesus Christ gives that faith, by giving HIs faithfulness for us to believe in, ( His Gospel) and the Spirit for us to follow Him. ( believe He died to give us His flesh and HIs blood, which is living, so we live rise with Him.)

All of that ( belief) is what saperates circumision ( of Christ) from non circumcision ( in the flesh)


Also as pointed out to you many times, if they commit sin, they are the uncircumcision. ( Jew and Gentile.)

 

[gordon777]

As has been pointed out many times, John was speaking to a habit, or persistent practice, of sinning, to a life of sin, not to a believer who is struggling with sin, trying to overcome it, and sometimes falling into it. Many want to make John say something about sin in the verses above that directly contradicts many other parts of Scripture - like Paul's letter to the Corinthians or Galatians.

Sin is unbelief in the testimonies of Christ, if you fall into sin you fall into unbelief.


Falling is not the testimony to believe in.


Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

 

[gordon777]

Pauls letters do not show unbelief in Jesus Christ ( what sin is) they all reveal the way to faith. ( away from sin/darkness/unbelief)


Look at Romans 7 which seems to suggest we sin, but concludes with faith, that frees us from that sin (unbelief)

WHO SHALL DELIVER ME ( SET ME FREE) from the body of this death/ if we believe not that Christ is He, we shall die in our sins. We know the truth to be set free. ( from unbelief/dying in sins, delivered from the body of this death)




Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[gordon777]

I hope Tenchi notices above ( we do question this don't we, we who can read on the thread) if he notices that Jesus testifies( He is the light of this world) for us to believe in, and when we see the light of this world( see Jesus) we DO NOT STUMBLE.

They who stumble are in the night ( the darkness of the god of this world( are in unbelief which is their sin yet)


2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



So too if we walk in darkness ( as Tenchi kindly quoted some of 1 John 1, for us) we are yet in sins ( lying)



1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



Clearly we are not taught to sin is to know the light, we are taught the opposite, to know the light is to not sin ( walk in darkness/work ill to your neighbour, but love him instead as we love ourselves)

We nourish ourselves, we are to nourish and love others the same way, we never hurt ourselves, and this is the same way the Lord we believe in, loves the church. ( loves us)



Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[gordon777]

Summary for you forum guys.

To be in Christ is to be in light, ( heavenly) and out of the darkness of satan/the god of this world.

 

[Tenchi]

Yes Tenchi it is our faith that justifies us,

Hmmm...I'm hoping what you wrote here is just an imprecise wording of what you actually believe. We are justified by faith, yes. This is what the Bible says repeatedly; but it is not, really, our faith that justifies us but the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. We could have faith in any number of things - our dentists, our barbers, our mothers, etc. - and not be justified as a result. It's in whom we place our faith, in whom we trust, that is the truly crucial thing. Only by faith in him, is one fully justified before God. This is what you believe, right?

1 Corinthians 1:30
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Acts 13:37-39
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 5:8-10 (NASB)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And so on.

and Jesus Christ gives that faith, by giving HIs faithfulness for us to believe in, ( His Gospel) and the Spirit for us to follow Him. ( believe He died to give us His flesh and HIs blood, which is living, so we live rise with Him.)

God's given to every person a "measure of faith." And so, we all - atheist or Christian - exercise our capacity for faith in all sorts of things every day: We have faith in our spouses, in our doctors, in other drivers on the road, in our pastors, in our barbers, and so on. Really, it's difficult to get through a day without exercising faith in something. So, faith itself isn't at all unique to the Christian person.

What God does is persuade us to exercise the faith He's given to every person in Jesus. I don't think He goes about giving faith to some people and keeping faith from others. This idea smacks of the Calvinist idea of divine arbitrariness concerning our salvation, which I don't think properly represents God's dealings with us all. The Gospel and salvation are for any who will receive it, not for a select few God chooses for no apparent reason.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Anyway, I agree with you that, by the Gospel and the Holy Spirit, God works to draw us to Himself, persuading us to trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord.

All of that ( belief) is what saperates circumision ( of Christ) from non circumcision ( in the flesh)

Well, again, it isn't our faith that is the crucial thing but the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. He alone is our Justifier, not Jesus plus our faith; it is our belief, our faith, particularly in him that brings about our justification. And when a person trusts in him to justify them before God, he does - perfectly and forever - making them one of God's children permanently so that, should their faith flag, or fail, they remain secure in their spiritual adoption by God, accepted by Him on the basis of Christ (Ephesians 1:6) not the individual believer's level of faith.

Also as pointed out to you many times, if they commit sin, they are the uncircumcision. ( Jew and Gentile.)

And, as has been pointed out to you many times, sin does not make a saved, spiritually-circumcised person one of the uncircumcised. As I've explained repeatedly, 1 Corinthians denies such a view entirely, as does Paul's letter to the Galatians, as well as 1 John 1:9, Romans 5:20, the Story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and so on. It's simply impossible, from God's word, to argue successfully for the idea that perfect obedience to God is necessary to one's salvation. This is to make oneself one's savior; it is, essentially, works-salvation which the Bible repeatedly and flatly denies:

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Sin is unbelief in the testimonies of Christ, if you fall into sin you fall into unbelief.

Unbelief is only one way of many by which a person may sin. But unbelief did not dissolve the position of the Israelites as God's Chosen People, though they fell into unbelief as a nation, over and over again. Having experienced the miraculous Exodus from Egypt, the Israelites still refused to trust God's promise that Canaan was theirs and wandered in the wilderness for forty years, as a result. But even in the wilderness they continued to be protected and provided for by God. As a picture of how God deals with the born-again believer today, His dealing with the OT Israelites illustrates His enduring faithfulness and love. To us today God makes the promise never to leave nor forsake His children - even when they behave like the Prodigal Son. (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:35-39; John 10:27-29) This is so, because of Christ and because of the faithful, loving, gracious nature of God, not because of anything they have done to earn God's faithfulness.

Falling is not the testimony to believe in.


Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

As I've shown you, such verses aren't the last word of God on the matter of sin, especially in regards to His own children. They are saved by grace, through faith, in Christ, not by works. Jesus is our Savior, not our ability to maintain perfect obedience to God. The shed blood of Christ redeems us from the curse and stain of our sin, not our own capacity to refrain from sin. And though we sin, we have an Advocate with God, Jesus Christ the Righteous, in whose perfect righteousness we stand (not our own) before God, who makes intercession for us, defying the Accuser's attempts to see us destroyed by God because of our sin.

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Look at Romans 7 which seems to suggest we sin, but concludes with faith,

It doesn't just "suggest," brother; Paul flat-out said he sinned! Though his inward man, his mind and heart, desired God's will and way, Paul struggled - and failed - against "the law of sin in his members," his body, that moved him to sinful conduct.

Romans 7:15-24
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

What was it that delivered Paul from this misery? Not his faith but the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:8-14
8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Here it is the object of Paul's faith that delivered him from the "body of this death": the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, not Paul's faith itself.

I hope Tenchi notices above ( we do question this don't we, we who can read on the thread) if he notices that Jesus testifies( He is the light of this world) for us to believe in, and when we see the light of this world( see Jesus) we DO NOT STUMBLE.

Already answered many times. See above.

 

[Robert Pate]

Summary for you forum guys.

To be in Christ is to be in light, ( heavenly) and out of the darkness of satan/the god of this world.

I don't see it that way.

To be "In Christ" means that God sees us "In Christ". We are saved by his merit and not our own. Jesus is our righteousness. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His resurrection. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

 

[gordon777]

God's given to every person a "measure of faith." And so, we all - atheist or Christian - exercise our capacity for faith in all sorts of things every day: We have faith in our spouses, in our doctors, in other drivers on the road, in our pastors, in our barbers, and so on. Really, it's difficult to get through a day without exercising faith in something. So, faith itself isn't at all unique to the Christian person.

The context of your quote is, every man among you, to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

For we have many members in one body, not having the same office, many members are one member in Christ, ( the thread is what it means to be in Christ, not what it means to be out of Christ/an atheist) and every one members one of another.

God set the members every one of them in the body as it has pleased Him. They are members many, yet one body.



Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.





Next context for you, is, do all men have faith ?



The word of God is the word of faith preached, ( Romans 10:8.) and that word of faith ( the gospel) was preached to us ( Gentiles) as well as unto them, ( the Jews) but the word preached did not profit them, not having faith when they heard it. But we which believe enter into the rest of the Lord.

The example of men who have not faith, are the men of Israel who betrayed and murdered Christ, who murdered Stephen, who captured Apostle Paul. ( we pray to be delivered from those wicked unreasonable men, as all men have not faith.

Apostle Paul told how no man stood with him, but that the Lord stood with him and strengthened him. ( we gain/ maintain the faith by hearing what Apostle Paul endured for the preaching/conversion of the Gentiles) and how the Lord would deliver him from every evil work. ( of those men of Israel and others, who had no faith at the time of their murdering of the Lords Holy Apostles).)




Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.



2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.




Now what is faith you might ask ?

Faith is what is hoped for. ( not seen)

We do not see God yet we love Him. We see Him not, yet we believe and rejoice with joy unspeakable, and full of glory, it is the trial of our faith, to receive the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls. ( even though people have faith in all that we see in this world, it is not the faith of God which is all we do not see/with trails)

Faith is to please God, without faith ( atheists, all non Christian religions, all the many Christian disputers of this world) they cannot possible please God.

God rewards ( through the faith) those who diligently seek Him. ( examples of faith are Abel and Enoch. Examples of not having faith are Cain.)



1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[gordon777]

What God does is persuade us to exercise the faith He's given to every person in Jesus. I don't think He goes about giving faith to some people and keeping faith from others. This idea smacks of the Calvinist idea of divine arbitrariness concerning our salvation, which I don't think properly represents God's dealings with us all. The Gospel and salvation are for any who will receive it, not for a select few God chooses for no apparent reason.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

God is willing that all should come to repentance.

We understand that not all come to repentance, and repentance is when all men have faith.

Will God have all men to be saved, or God is not a respecter of persons, and so all men, of whatever sort they are, as Apostle Paul, was a persecutor but did it ignorantly ( without faith) but was called by God. ( for no apparent reason, other than to be the proof that God calls/has mercy on whom He will)

God loved the world, and gave His Son for whosoever believes on Him to not perish. ( not all men believed, did that make the faith of God with no effect ? No, as God is true, but every man who does not believe is a liar.)

Who is a liar, but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ, they are antichrist that deny the Father and the Son. ( they have no faith.)

Faith is the Spirit also. (atheists , non Christian religions, all false Christians, have not that Spirit/ they separate themselves, when they have not the Spirit of Christ, they are none of His.)



Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same Spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

 

[gordon777]

Well, again, it isn't our faith that is the crucial thing but the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. He alone is our Justifier, not Jesus plus our faith; it is our belief, our faith, particularly in him that brings about our justification. And when a person trusts in him to justify them before God, he does - perfectly and forever - making them one of God's children permanently so that, should their faith flag, or fail, they remain secure in their spiritual adoption by God, accepted by Him on the basis of Christ (Ephesians 1:6) not the individual believer's level of faith.

Back on what you think, if the Pharisees/Israel kept the law.

If one is circumcised by the circumcision of Christ, they are circumcised, and they also help to reveal how those circumcised in the flesh ( in the letter of the law) not only are uncircumcised, that they are killed by what they follow. ( through being uncircumcised, dead in sins, naked and ashamed.)


Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[gordon777]

And, as has been pointed out to you many times, sin does not make a saved, spiritually-circumcised person one of the uncircumcised. As I've explained repeatedly, 1 Corinthians denies such a view entirely, as does Paul's letter to the Galatians, as well as 1 John 1:9, Romans 5:20, the Story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and so on. It's simply impossible, from God's word, to argue successfully for the idea that perfect obedience to God is necessary to one's salvation. This is to make oneself one's savior; it is, essentially, works-salvation which the Bible repeatedly and flatly denies:

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Sin makes a circumcised in the flesh person uncircumcised. ( when they break the law.)

The difference between the circumcised in the flesh person and they who are circumcised with the circumcision made by Christ ? ( Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.)


How do they put off the body of the sins of the flesh ?


They must fulfil the law, ( the righteousness of the law/the law of Christ.) or the circumcision of the ones in the flesh would not be understood to be made uncircumcision. ( they are seen to have not pout off the body of the sins of the flesh, by being breakers of the righteousness of the law/the law of Christ.)

The law of Christ makes us free from the law of sin and death. ( which they in the circumcision of the flesh/the letter of the law, break/ and are then made uncircumcision.)

We have to ( through the Spirit) keep the righteousness of the law, which is the law of Christ to bear one another's burdens. ( not add to them as they in the circumcision of the flesh, by breaking the righteousness of the law to love your neighbour as yourself.)



Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

 

[gordon777]

Unbelief is only one way of many by which a person may sin. But unbelief did not dissolve the position of the Israelites as God's Chosen People, though they fell into unbelief as a nation, over and over again. Having experienced the miraculous Exodus from Egypt, the Israelites still refused to trust God's promise that Canaan was theirs and wandered in the wilderness for forty years, as a result. But even in the wilderness they continued to be protected and provided for by God. As a picture of how God deals with the born-again believer today, His dealing with the OT Israelites illustrates His enduring faithfulness and love. To us today God makes the promise never to leave nor forsake His children - even when they behave like the Prodigal Son. (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:35-39; John 10:27-29) This is so, because of Christ and because of the faithful, loving, gracious nature of God, not because of anything they have done to earn God's faithfulness.

The summary in scripture of Israel, is this, the Lord saved them out of Egypt and afterwards destroyed those who believed not.

Angels, Sodom and Gomorrah, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

God did not spare the old world, or the angels that sinned, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, but made them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.


Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:




As for the prodigal son, and if that means we would never be forsaken ?

No, it means as it says in the entire chapter, (Luke 15.) God calling all men to repentance. Mark 1:15.)

Would we be never forsaken ?

Again you would need to look at the verses to recognise what one is talking about.

The conversation ( belief) should be without covetousness. ( as that is sin) and Apostle Paul reminds us why, that the Lord is with us when we trust in Him. ( to then not leave us, nor forsake us.)

But for more context, it is those who refuse the word of faith preached, who instead observe lying vanities, they are forsaking their own mercy. ( they receive no mercy from the Lord. James 2:13.)

God told Israel even the message for the latter days. If they seek God with all their heart and with all of their soul, they would find Him. How in their tribulation, God would not forsake them, not forgetting the covenant he made with their fathers. ( Jesus taught us how to trust in God, that he knows we have need of all things, and not be as the Gentiles who seek that way. Matthew 6:32.)



Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.


Jonah 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

 

[gordon777]

As I've shown you, such verses aren't the last word of God on the matter of sin, especially in regards to His own children. They are saved by grace, through faith, in Christ, not by works. Jesus is our Savior, not our ability to maintain perfect obedience to God. The shed blood of Christ redeems us from the curse and stain of our sin, not our own capacity to refrain from sin. And though we sin, we have an Advocate with God, Jesus Christ the Righteous, in whose perfect righteousness we stand (not our own) before God, who makes intercession for us, defying the Accuser's attempts to see us destroyed by God because of our sin.

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes the verses of being in light and not stumbling are the last word, they cant be overturned or undone.


Are we in light if we sin, no we are not.

If we walk in darkness ( which is not in the light) we are liars. ( we have no fellowship with Him then)

We know Him ( have fellowship with Him) if we walk in the light as He is in the light. ( not in darkness at all) which is keeping His word as He kept that of the Father. ( then Gods love is perfected in us/ we abide in His love as He abode in the love of the Father.)



John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[gordon777]

It doesn't just "suggest," brother; Paul flat-out said he sinned! Though his inward man, his mind and heart, desired God's will and way, Paul struggled - and failed - against "the law of sin in his members," his body, that moved him to sinful conduct.

Romans 7:15-24
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul consents unto the law that it is good ( to do the good that we would)

Paul speaks of what he hates ( sin) he does.

Paul speaks of not knowing how to perform that which is good, and the evil that he would not do, he does.

Delighting in the law of God after the inward man. ( as Israel did in the law of the letter, and does until now/ which was also Paul when named Saul, in that same law and same failure. Isaiah 58:2.)

Paul was brought into captivity to the law of sin in his members, and required delivery from it.




We are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. ( the oldness of the letter is not able to do the good we would, but doing the evil we would not.)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ has made us free ( delivered us from the body of this death, we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held.) from the law of sin and death.



Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.




Here is the previous way below. ( carnal and brought into captivity)


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Now here is the delivered way. ( not carnal, mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down every high thing against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Chriost, then our obedience is fulfilled.)



2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

 

[gordon777]

Already answered many times. See above.

Stumbling ( sinning) cant be done by those who have no part dark.


Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

 

[gordon777]

I don't see it that way.

To be "In Christ" means that God sees us "In Christ". We are saved by his merit and not our own. Jesus is our righteousness. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His resurrection. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

We are examples of light, or darkness. ( glory or blasphemy to God)


Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Robert Pate]

We are examples of light, or darkness. ( glory or blasphemy to God)


Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Christ and his Gospel are the Christians light. The preaching of the Gospel to the lost glorifies God and honors Christ.

 

[gordon777]

Apostle Paul brought before the council, tells them earnestly how he had lived in all good conscience before God until that day.

Paul is then brought before Governor Felix, and confesses before them, that, that which they call heresy, He so worships the God of his fathers, believing all things written in the law and the prophets, having hope towards God, of a resurrection of the dead, just and unjust. This is how Apostle Paul confesses how he exercises himself, to always have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man. (More verses for never giving offence, and when some give offences to avoid those people. 1 Corinthians 10:32. 2 Corinthians 6:3. James 3:2. Philippians 1:10. Romans 16:17.)

The end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, which is also of a good conscience, sincere faith, which some swerve aside to vanity.

We are to hold the faith and a good conscience, not like some who have put away concerning faith and made shipwreck. ( they are delivered unto satan to learn to not blaspheme.)

We are to draw near to God, with a true heart in full assurance of faith, and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The Apostles had a good conscience in all things, willing to live honestly.

We are beseeched by the workers with Him, to not receive the grace of God in vain. God hears us and accepts us in the day of salvation and succours us, we are to behold as now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

The Apostles giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving themselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses.

Whatever we do it is to, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.. ( committing sin is not giving glory to God)

Giving no offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God, even as Apostle Paul pleased ALL MEN IN ALL THINGS, not seeking his own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

What saves us is the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( To assure our hearts before God and our heart to not condemn us. 1 John 3:18-21.)




Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:





No scripture can be taught against the practical examples of the Apostles, nor against the purpose of that good conscience /belief in the rising of Christ from the dead, and also of non causing of offence to anyone. ( in all things giving glory to God.)

Those who do commit sins, ( those of this world/and any man that is called a brother.) fornicators, covetous, railer, drunkards, are to be judged, and pout away from ourselves those wicked persons.





1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Robert Pate]

Apostle Paul brought before the council, tells them earnestly how he had lived in all good conscience before God until that day.

Paul is then brought before Governor Felix, and confesses before them, that, that which they call heresy, He so worships the God of his fathers, believing all things written in the law and the prophets, having hope towards God, of a resurrection of the dead, just and unjust. This is how Apostle Paul confesses how he exercises himself, to always have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man. (More verses for never giving offence, and when some give offences to avoid those people. 1 Corinthians 10:32. 2 Corinthians 6:3. James 3:2. Philippians 1:10. Romans 16:17.)

The end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, which is also of a good conscience, sincere faith, which some swerve aside to vanity.

We are to hold the faith and a good conscience, not like some who have put away concerning faith and made shipwreck. ( they are delivered unto satan to learn to not blaspheme.)

We are to draw near to God, with a true heart in full assurance of faith, and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The Apostles had a good conscience in all things, willing to live honestly.

We are beseeched by the workers with Him, to not receive the grace of God in vain. God hears us and accepts us in the day of salvation and succours us, we are to behold as now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

The Apostles giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving themselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses.

Whatever we do it is to, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.. ( committing sin is not giving glory to God)

Giving no offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God, even as Apostle Paul pleased ALL MEN IN ALL THINGS, not seeking his own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

What saves us is the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( To assure our hearts before God and our heart to not condemn us. 1 John 3:18-21.)




Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:





No scripture can be taught against the practical examples of the Apostles, nor against the purpose of that good conscience /belief in the rising of Christ from the dead, and also of non causing of offence to anyone. ( in all things giving glory to God.)

Those who do commit sins, ( those of this world/and any man that is called a brother.) fornicators, covetous, railer, drunkards, are to be judged, and pout away from ourselves those wicked persons.





1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

The Christians life is motivated by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, otherwise it is nothing but religion.