What does it mean to be "In Christ?"

[gordon777]

Romans 10:3-4 (NASB)
3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Matthew 5:17 (NASB)
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

All those who are "in Christ" are, thereby, freed from the impossible effort of being justified by law-keeping. Christ is the believer's justification, not their "keeping the righteousness of the law," as you asserted, gordon777.

Nobody is justified in law keeping, as the breaking of the law is them counted as uncircumcised.


Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.



But if they fulfil the righteousness of the law, they are no longer uncircumcised.


Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?




God sent the Son to condemn sin the the flesh ( circumcision in the flesh/ to no longer have confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3.) so the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. ( so our uncircumcision in the flesh is counted circumcision in the spirit/ the circumcision of Christ.)

We were counted in the past as uncircumcision by that which is called circumcision in the flesh made by hands.

But Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity, ( the ordinances/circumcision in the flesh) to make Himself one new man ( circumcision nor uncircumcision is nothing, but the new creature in Christ. Galatians 6:15.)

We were ( as Israel is now.) dead in the uncircumcision of our flesh, but were quickened, ( Israel is not quickened together with Christ.) together with Christ ( in faith/risen with Him. Colossians 2:12.) having been forgiven ( unlike Israel for their sins/breaking of the laws/being counted uncircumcised.) all trespasses. ( Israel who "keeps" law, is dead in sins/uncircumcision.)



Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[gordon777]

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Romans 5:20 (NASB)
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Romans 8:38-39 (NASB)
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Now, these are all statements for the born-again believer, not an unsaved Pharisee trying to justify himself by law-keeping. They do demonstrate, though, that one can be a believer and sin and not dissolve their membership in God's family by doing so. And if it's possible for a believer to obey and disobey God, it's certainly the case that the Pharisees did so with God's law, too. See above.

The law keeper/breaker, is uncircumcised in the heart and spirit.

The same goes for Jew and gentile. ( as shown above in Romans 2.)


Not possible for the example of Christ and the example of the Apostles of Christ to obey and disobey, there are no such examples.


2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[gordon777]

So todays summary for what it means to be in Christ ?


To not be as Israel whose circumcision ( without the circumcision of Christ. Colossians 2:11.) is counted as uncircumcision. ( Romans 2:26.)


To know whenever Israel has broken the law, they broke the bond/seal of circumcision they had with God. ( Abraham received the sign/seal of circumcision to be a father to all them that believe. Romans 2:23-25. 4:11.)



Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:



We are joined to the Lord to not break that seal, ( of circumcision.) by putting on Jesus Christ, ( perfect love) which is the Bond to the Lord of perfectness.

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ( keeping the faith/belief in Christ, not the example of Israel of unbelief, and becoming uncircumcision.)


Hosea 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[Deidr]

Christians are not Pharisees. Christians don't need rules, laws or religion, they are led by the Holy Spirit.

If you need laws, rules and religion it is because you are lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

Nope! no answer to the specifics. How can a person reason with someone if they ignore other scriptures that would bring light to what they are saying.

Forming a boxed doctrine was exactly what many of us have done by accepting doctrinal boxes preached to us, or taking 2 scriptures out of their context and coding them together.

Then push in their own way this as the Gospel.
And believe if you don't believe their gospel you need to repent and believe Jesus did it all. This is exactly why I shared my experiences about my brother and father earlier.

Legalism....is something you have to do rather than one you need to trust. [And Pate, your legalism is, you must believe you do nothing]

To get out of that You need to first come to believe what God had shown about who Jesus is. If HE HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU BY THE FATHER THEN Trust Him that He is in control of everything.



I posted on facebook how I myself was a Pharisees a while back to my family to try to get them to think.

Again,
Legalism is something you have to do rather than who you need to trustbelieve in.

-Sometimes that something as here, that people like Pate And Frame think you need to do is believe their gospel. However,

the Gospel Jesus Preached was the Kingdom
Peace and Joy in the Holyghost.

He says I am the resurrection and the life He that believes in me as though He were dead yet shall He live.

Paul preached what Jesus did, His death, burial and resurrection and confirmation of being seen..One main reason is so that we would Trust the one that did these things for us.
"Jesus" the son of the living God.
JESUS told Mary if you believe on me you will never die
not if you believe some Calvinist doctrine
or the Pate and Frame doctrine of "Every work you do, even effort that does not earn is Work's salvation."
Another words you can't enter through the Pate and Frame doctrine but through Trusting/Believing who Jesus is.
You know why because your doctrine is like the righteousness of the scribes and pharasees; In that their righteousness did not do anything to change their heart unto the heart of Christ. As a matter of fact it leaves the rest of their lives lives on earth untouched.

The top order is that you first Trust Jesus, not first Trust a doctrine that can't even defend itself logically so you ignore every scripture against it, then you will find how your sins are forgiven in Him as you walk not after your own will, which is what you can do in your own natural ability, But the will of God.

The Gospel is the Kingdom's availibility through Belief/trust in Jesus.
His rest is that you trust Him Pate, not trust a doctrine of no Work's salvation, because you trusting in "No works salvation" is something you have to do(because you have to believe it: at least that is the same way you present works)which is Legalism-the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees.

 

[Deidr]

Nope! no answer to the specifics. How can a person reason with someone if they ignore other scriptures that would bring light to what they are saying.

Forming a boxed doctrine was exactly what many of us have done by accepting doctrinal boxes preached to us, or taking 2 scriptures out of their context and coding them together.

Then push in their own way this as the Gospel.
And believe if you don't believe their gospel you need to repent and believe Jesus did it all. This is exactly why I shared my experiences about my brother and father earlier.

Legalism....is something you have to do rather than one you need to trust. [And Pate, your legalism is, you must believe you do nothing]

To get out of that You need to first come to believe what God had shown about who Jesus is. If HE HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU BY THE FATHER THEN Trust Him that He is in control of everything.



I posted on facebook how I myself was a Pharisees a while back to my family to try to get them to think.

Again,
Legalism is something you have to do rather than who you need to trustbelieve in.

-Sometimes that something as here, that people like Pate And Frame think you need to do is believe their gospel. However,

the Gospel Jesus Preached was the Kingdom
Peace and Joy in the Holyghost.

He says I am the resurrection and the life He that believes in me as though He were dead yet shall He live.

Paul preached what Jesus did, His death, burial and resurrection and confirmation of being seen..One main reason is so that we would Trust the one that did these things for us.
"Jesus" the son of the living God.
JESUS told Mary if you believe on me you will never die
not if you believe some Calvinist doctrine
or the Pate and Frame doctrine of "Every work you do, even effort that does not earn is Work's salvation."
Another words you can't enter through the Pate and Frame doctrine but through Trusting/Believing who Jesus is.
You know why because your doctrine is like the righteousness of the scribes and pharasees; In that their righteousness did not do anything to change their heart unto the heart of Christ. As a matter of fact it leaves the rest of their lives lives on earth untouched.

The top order is that you first Trust Jesus, not first Trust a doctrine that can't even defend itself logically so you ignore every scripture against it, then you will find how your sins are forgiven in Him as you walk not after your own will, which is what you can do in your own natural ability, But the will of God.

The Gospel is the Kingdom's availibility through Belief/trust in Jesus.
His rest is that you trust Him Pate, not trust a doctrine of no Work's salvation, because you trusting in "No works salvation" is something you have to do(because you have to believe it: at least that is the same way you present works)which is Legalism-the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees.

Trusting Jesus brings relationship and fellowship.
Think about how a man wants to be intimate with His wife, but the wife has not had any emotional connection with Him the whole week because he put his energy in fulltime football watching.

To her he wants the goods without the fellowship.

As what Willard calls the Vampire Christian. I'll take a little of your blood but I don't need to stay close to you the rest of my life.

 

[gordon777]

Trusting Jesus is following Him, here are actual examples AGAIN:


Matthew 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

 

[Tenchi]

The Holy Spirit would never lead a believer into sin.

Right, but as I'm sure you know, many make the claim that the Holy Spirit has led them to this, or that, when no such thing is the case. Folks attribute all sorts of things to the Spirit - even to blasphemous degree. But how do I know when they have? By what means can I discern this? Well, when, for example, a man tells me the Holy Spirit has directed him to divorce his wife, I can assess this claim by what the Bible says. In doing so, I apply God's commands, principles and wisdom given to me in His word to the man's claim and discover that, in fact, the Spirit did not direct him to divorce his wife. It seems evident to me in this example that walking in the Spirit and careful adherence to God's word go hand-in-hand and must, I believe, never be separated.

I think the issue here is "what is over what?" in walking with the Spirit. If a Christian wants to say, "I don't need the commands, principles and wisdom of Scripture, I have the Spirit to guide me," and by this they mean that they can neglect God's word as a guide, relying entirely upon the "leading of the Spirit," what I think they are doing is turning from the sole objective and authoritative standard of divine Truth to a new source of "truth" that is powerfully vulnerable to subjectification and demonic deception. This is why, in part, Paul wrote to Timothy,

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Why would the man who wrote to the believers in Galatia to "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25) not direct his own protege the same way, but, instead, urged him to be careful to remain in the truth of divine Scripture. Rather than telling Timothy that all he needed spiritually could be found in walking in/by the Spirit, Paul pointed to God's word as that which equips a man of God for every good work, making him "complete." Because any believer can easily confuse their inner self-talk, their own psychological disposition, their desires and beliefs, for the Holy Spirit's "leading," and because the devil is always working his well-honed powers of deception upon them, it's vital they remain under the objective, authoritative constraints of God's word. But by divorcing themselves from the constraints of Scripture, a believer can claim that any and everything they are "Spirit-led" to do is divinely ordained and thus beyond criticism. I'm sure you can see how extremely dangerous this is spiritually. Under this sort of belief, all manner of blasphemous garbage is attributed to the Holy Spirit: toking the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit, soaking in the Spirit, being slain in the Spirit, etc.

I had a young man tell me once he'd had such a feeling of "peace" when, after months of resisting porn, he'd yielded to his addiction and filled his mind again with its vile darkness, that he was sure it was from God, from the Spirit, and thus confirmed he'd done nothing wrong in looking again at porn! How did I know he was mistaken? Because God's word makes it clear that looking at porn is sin! (Matthew 5:28) Here, again, it seems to me very obvious that obeying the commands, principles and wisdom of the Bible must happen in tandem with walking in the Spirit; these things are not mutually-exclusive, but if they are made to be, the way opens up, as it did for this young man yielding to his porn habit, to claim that what the Bible calls sin is negated by the "leading of the Spirit."

Psalm 119:11
11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Psalm 119:130
130 The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.

1 Peter 2:2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby:

 

[Robert Pate]

Trusting Jesus is following Him, here are actual examples AGAIN:


Matthew 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Jesus told the rich young ruler to go sell all that he had and give it to the poor and come and follow him. That just might be the criteria for following Jesus.

I believe that following Jesus is to trust in him for my salvation.

 

[Robert Pate]

Right, but as I'm sure you know, many make the claim that the Holy Spirit has led them to this, or that, when no such thing is the case. Folks attribute all sorts of things to the Spirit - even to blasphemous degree. But how do I know when they have? By what means can I discern this? Well, when, for example, a man tells me the Holy Spirit has directed him to divorce his wife, I can assess this claim by what the Bible says. In doing so, I apply God's commands, principles and wisdom given to me in His word to the man's claim and discover that, in fact, the Spirit did not direct him to divorce his wife. It seems evident to me in this example that walking in the Spirit and careful adherence to God's word go hand-in-hand and must, I believe, never be separated.

I think the issue here is "what is over what?" in walking with the Spirit. If a Christian wants to say, "I don't need the commands, principles and wisdom of Scripture, I have the Spirit to guide me," and by this they mean that they can neglect God's word as a guide, relying entirely upon the "leading of the Spirit," what I think they are doing is turning from the sole objective and authoritative standard of divine Truth to a new source of "truth" that is powerfully vulnerable to subjectification and demonic deception. This is why, in part, Paul wrote to Timothy,

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Why would the man who wrote to the believers in Galatia to "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25) not direct his own protege the same way, but, instead, urged him to be careful to remain in the truth of divine Scripture. Rather than telling Timothy that all he needed spiritually could be found in walking in/by the Spirit, Paul pointed to God's word as that which equips a man of God for every good work, making him "complete." Because any believer can easily confuse their inner self-talk, their own psychological disposition, their desires and beliefs, for the Holy Spirit's "leading," and because the devil is always working his well-honed powers of deception upon them, it's vital they remain under the objective, authoritative constraints of God's word. But by divorcing themselves from the constraints of Scripture, a believer can claim that any and everything they are "Spirit-led" to do is divinely ordained and thus beyond criticism. I'm sure you can see how extremely dangerous this is spiritually. Under this sort of belief, all manner of blasphemous garbage is attributed to the Holy Spirit: toking the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit, soaking in the Spirit, being slain in the Spirit, etc.

I had a young man tell me once he'd had such a feeling of "peace" when, after months of resisting porn, he'd yielded to his addiction and filled his mind again with its vile darkness, that he was sure it was from God, from the Spirit, and thus confirmed he'd done nothing wrong in looking again at porn! How did I know he was mistaken? Because God's word makes it clear that looking at porn is sin! (Matthew 5:28) Here, again, it seems to me very obvious that obeying the commands, principles and wisdom of the Bible must happen in tandem with walking in the Spirit; these things are not mutually-exclusive, but if they are made to be, the way opens up, as it did for this young man yielding to his porn habit, to claim that what the Bible calls sin is negated by the "leading of the Spirit."

Psalm 119:11
11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Psalm 119:130
130 The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.

1 Peter 2:2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby:

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to glorify Christ, John 16:14.

We glorify Christ by teaching and preaching his Gospel to the unsaved. Not sure that you know what the Gospel is.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus acknowledged the Pharisees pay tithes, and omit the rest of the law.

If you want to show the Pharisees are law keepers through that acknowledgement OK.

Yes, I know it's okay. This is why I pointed out that he had.

The failures of Israel are made apparent, that is why the new covenant God made with all the world, is, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute iniquity.

This ignores my point, which was that, contrary to what you've contended, the Israelite nation was both obedient and not to God's law, but their disobedience did not mean they were no longer His Chosen People, nor did it mean that they had never been obedient to God.

Yes God saved Israel time and time again, and the last and only everlasting time to be saved is through knowing/believing in the name of, Jesus that He is is the Christ, the Son of God. There is salvation in no other name. ( Acts 4:12. 8:37.)

This is a point I've made myself in this thread. But your acknowledgement here doesn't obscure the fact of the error you made in contending that the Pharisees were never obedient to God's law.

But the major problem for Israel, ( from the Pharisees right up until now) is their going about without Christ, to establish righteousness.

Christ does end that righteousness seeking in the law of the Pharisee, when they submit themselves unto the righteousness of God. ( of God raising Christ our Lord from the dead. Romans 10:9.)

Right. I explained this earlier in the thread.

It is as told in the entire chapter Tenchi.

The fornication reported among the Corinthians, and them being PUFFED UP, to mourn and take away the fornicators from among them.

Their glorying is not good, ( being puffed up) as the leaven they left among them ( of the fornicators) leavens the whole lump ( the whole house and Spiritual building of Christ.)

They are required to withdraw malice and wickedness ( of the fornicators they were puffed up for leaving among them.) and needed to keep Christ our passover in sincerity and truth. ( to obey in truth and sincerity)

Paul continues, he wrote to them not to accompany with fornicators, ( or covetous, or idolaters ) or they need to go out of this world.

Yes. But your observation of these things doesn't negate the fact that, though Paul condemned the Corinthian's sinful (leaven-ish) behavior on one hand, he still confirmed them as "in Christ," and "brethren," and "temples of God," on the other. (1 Corinthians 3:1, 9, 16, 23)

Romans 2, ( as the entire new testament is for) has revealed the commandment of God for all men ( Jew and Gentile to repent. Acts 17:30.)
Jew and Gentile ( all men) are spoken of in Romans 2, for them to not despise the goodness of God that has lead us to repentance.

Yes, right.

But, Jew and Gentile who seek for glory and honour and immortality, ( seek eternal life in Jesus Christ) are obeying the truth, but the contentious obey unrighteousness and do evil, they receive indignation and wrath, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile. ( for there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:11.)

When the Gentiles do obey truth, ( repented) they show the work of the law written in the heart, ( repentance through Jesus Christ)

When the Jew ( in the law) has not repented, ( as God commanded through Christ, all men to repent. Acts 17:30.) they break the law and dishonour God.

Yes.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

"...and have no confidence in the flesh." Why?

Galatians 5:17
Galatians 6:7-8
Romans 8:5-8
Romans 7:18

Law-keeping is "of the flesh" whether it be physical circumcision, or any attempt by fleshly means to achieve a right-standing (justification) with God. As the verses above indicate, the flesh is utterly incapable of achieving a godly end. By what means, then, does the born-again believer live a holy, righteous life? By the Spirit, by his leading, his transformative power, his will and way. The end goal, though, isn't merely to be righteous, to be obedient, but through obedience to "see God" and fellowship with Him more joyfully and deeply (Hebrews 12:14; 1 John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Galatians 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 8:13-14
13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.

Ephesians 3:16
16 That God would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

How can keeping the law in righteousness, ( being in Jesus Christ)...

These are not the same thing, gordon777. "Keeping the law" is an action one takes, but "being in Christ" is a state or condition in which one exists. In fact, the latter is what gives rise to the former, but they are not one-and-the-same thing.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This spiritual "circumcision" is accomplished by God, who, by our trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord, are, by the Holy Spirit, placed in him. This "circumcision" is done to us by God, not by us for God (Galatians 3:3; Colossians 2:10-12); it is His supernatural work that we can only receive (not achieve) by faith. And inasmuch as we could do no good works to obtain our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-8; 2 Timothy 1:9), we can do no good works to retain and maintain it. Our salvation, our spiritual "circumcision" is entirely God's doing and cannot, I am convinced, ever be undone by our disobedience. What the born-again believer's disobedience does is halt their fellowship with God; it doesn't dissolve their relationship to Him as a son or daughter (see the story of the Prodigal Son)

You seem...less argumentative in these last posts and there are no nasty digs in them, either. I appreciate the distinct change in tone, gordon777.

 

[Tenchi]

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to glorify Christ, John 16:14.

We glorify Christ by teaching and preaching his Gospel to the unsaved. Not sure that you know what the Gospel is.

Now, now, no need to start with the nasty digs. I know the Gospel as well as you do, brother.

In any case, you've deflected from the points of my last post entirely in your response here. Why?

 

[Robert Pate]

Now, now, no need to start with the nasty digs. I know the Gospel as well as you do, brother.

In any case, you've deflected from the points of my last post entirely in your response here. Why?

There are only a few on this Forum that know and understand the Gospel and all that it calls into question.

 

[Tenchi]

There are only a few on this Forum that know and understand the Gospel and all that it calls into question.

Uh huh. And you are, of course, one of those precious few. In any case, you still haven't addressed the points I made to you in my prior post.

 

[Robert Pate]

Uh huh. And you are, of course, one of those precious few. In any case, you still haven't addressed the points I made to you in my prior post.

No, I had to go through years of lies and deceptions before I discovered the truth of the Gospel and justification by faith.

 

[Free]

There are only a few on this Forum that know and understand the Gospel and all that it calls into question.

There are likely quite a number that do. It is erroneous and prideful to conclude that just because people disagree with you that they don’t “understand the gospel and all that it calls into question.”

 

[Fastfredy0]

There are likely quite a number that do [understand the gospel]. It is erroneous and prideful to conclude that just because people disagree with you that they don’t “understand the gospel and all that it calls into question.”

Hmmm .... not sure how one would test that statement that "quite of few understand the gospel" ..

• you would have to define what 'quite a few means' .... 80% ???
• you would have to define what the definition of the gospel is ... you might get agreement on the gospel = 'the good news' but when you ask: "What's the good news I doubt you will get the same answer from a majority of people". So you will get various answers to people's varying ideas of the definition of the gospel

My conclusion: The variables are so great that saying few or saying many people understand the gospel could be supported IMO.

Hmmm... if the gospel was even limited to knowledge of what "saving faith" is; well, I've read some far out (IMO) answers including 2 forum reps who think you can get to heaven without knowledge of Christ and another forum reps that believe in work salvation or other non works salvation... it's a mess.

Biblical perspicuity ... the scholars support the idea but the empirical evidence found in people's varying opinions does not ... ... Good luck

 

[gordon777]

Jesus told the rich young ruler to go sell all that he had and give it to the poor and come and follow him. That just might be the criteria for following Jesus.

I believe that following Jesus is to trust in him for my salvation.

Talk is not following,many on the wide path talk, few do the deeds that Christ and the Apostl3es did, so we do not follow talking examples, but the4se instead.

Talk is cheap, we are bought with a price to not be servants of men.


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

 

[gordon777]

This spiritual "circumcision" is accomplished by God, who, by our trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord, are, by the Holy Spirit, placed in him. This "circumcision" is done to us by God, not by us for God (Galatians 3:3; Colossians 2:10-12); it is His supernatural work that we can only receive (not achieve) by faith. And inasmuch as we could do no good works to obtain our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-8; 2 Timothy 1:9), we can do no good works to retain and maintain it. Our salvation, our spiritual "circumcision" is entirely God's doing and cannot, I am convinced, ever be undone by our disobedience. What the born-again believer's disobedience does is halt their fellowship with God; it doesn't dissolve their relationship to Him as a son or daughter (see the story of the Prodigal Son)

You seem...less argumentative in these last posts and there are no nasty digs in them, either. I appreciate the distinct change in tone, gordon777.

I just read here of your opinion about circumcision, the rest before that wont matter.


We receive justification through faith, and through faith we also maintain that justification. ( In Christ)

The same way as many do not receive justification, through not having faith, and the same way as the faith is not maintained, due to not having faith. ( in Christ.)

Circumcision cant be undone by disobedience, as it would never be done in the first place. ( by the disobedient)

The same way as circumcision cant be achieved by a heart of stone that never had obedience written into it. ( the new covenant) and they who are uncircumcised in heart are the disobedient.


Here are verses also on circumcised in the heart/the covenant in the heart. ( if you have others for circumcision, show them thanks)


Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



Also as you speak of born again, here are some verses directly about it, if you have any other specific verses for born again, ( and disobedience related to it) show them thanks.



1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Tenchi]

We receive justification through faith, and through faith we also maintain that justification.

Then our justification is not of Christ, but of our faith, isn't it? If we maintain our justification by faith, then it is our faith, not our Saviour, by which we are justified. This seems to me to be what is implied by your statement here.

The same way as many do not receive justification, through not having faith, and the same way as the faith is not maintained, due to not having faith. ( in Christ.)

We trust in Christ as our justification. In him, we are justified, his perfect righteousness is imputed to us, and we are, thereby, made acceptable to God. But having been justified, we are fundamentally changed, and adopted into God's family, and cannot go back to what we were before, no matter how we live. A caterpillar that has become a butterfly, has been changed such that, even if it were to behave like the caterpillar it used to be, it would still be a butterfly. Some things - like God making us alive spiritually and adopting us as His own - cannot be reversed or undone.

Circumcision cant be undone by disobedience, as it would never be done in the first place.

Well, the believers at Corinth show that this isn't the case. They had been spiritually circumcised and yet were carnal, sinful people. Their sin didn't dissolve their adoption into God's family, however (though, it did greatly hinder their fellowship with Him). So, spiritual circumcision can't be undone by disobedience, but not because the "circumcised" can't disobey, but because they can't undo God's work upon them.

Also as you speak of born again, here are some verses directly about it, if you have any other specific verses for born again, ( and disobedience related to it) show them thanks.



1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Well, then there are verses like the following that clarify and qualify the ones here that you've offered:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From the ESV:

1 John 3:9-10
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

From the NASB:

1 John 3:9-10 (NASB)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

As has been pointed out many times, John was speaking to a habit, or persistent practice, of sinning, to a life of sin, not to a believer who is struggling with sin, trying to overcome it, and sometimes falling into it. Many want to make John say something about sin in the verses above that directly contradicts many other parts of Scripture - like Paul's letter to the Corinthians or Galatians.

 

[Robert Pate]

Then our justification is not of Christ, but of our faith, isn't it? If we maintain our justification by faith, then it is our faith, not our Saviour, by which we are justified. This seems to me to be what is implied by your statement here.



We trust in Christ as our justification. In him, we are justified, his perfect righteousness is imputed to us, and we are, thereby, made acceptable to God. But having been justified, we are fundamentally changed, and adopted into God's family, and cannot go back to what we were before, no matter how we live. A caterpillar that has become a butterfly, has been changed such that, even if it were to behave like the caterpillar it used to be, it would still be a butterfly. Some things - like God making us alive spiritually and adopting us as His own - cannot be reversed or undone.



Well, the believers at Corinth show that this isn't the case. They had been spiritually circumcised and yet were carnal, sinful people. Their sin didn't dissolve their adoption into God's family, however (though, it did greatly hinder their fellowship with Him). So, spiritual circumcision can't be undone by disobedience, but not because the "circumcised" can't disobey, but because they can't undo God's work upon them.



Well, then there are verses like the following that clarify and qualify the ones here that you've offered:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From the ESV:

1 John 3:9-10
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

From the NASB:

1 John 3:9-10 (NASB)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

As has been pointed out many times, John was speaking to a habit, or persistent practice, of sinning, to a life of sin, not to a believer who is struggling with sin, trying to overcome it, and sometimes falling into it. Many want to make John say something about sin in the verses above that directly contradicts many other parts of Scripture - like Paul's letter to the Corinthians or Galatians.

We need to understand that the early church was a mess. It was full of Judaizers that could not turn loose of the law. And then Paul was preaching to people that had never heard about Christ. The other apostles had very little understanding of Paul's Gospel. They had to learn it from Paul. I don't know how Paul kept his sanity.