What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you.. our hope of GLORY...

If i could cause my "spirit man" to jump out of this "earthen vessel" and still fulfill the purpose for which i was called, I WOULD! but please try to understand
that God gets the Glory when The "inner man" overcomes and works past the "flesh"

I agree completely.. And who is the 'spirit man' within you that you're speaking of.. Specifically..who is this inner man ?

Is it you, or Christ ?

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If you know God? you know He delights in making the weak, strong! the darkness turn to light!

No doubt about it!

So again your point makes no biblical sense to me?

I'm not so sure you understand my point.. Please explain it to me.

 

[Eventide]

It's not that difficult IMO..

Not a single man was predestined in the first Adam, which is our old man according to the flesh. We know that by the offense of one (the first Adam), that condemnation has come upon all men.. And that by the righteousness of one (the last Adam), we have justification of life..

Our old life is not justified in us.. It is condemned.

The life of Christ (alone) in us is our justification of life.

That life alone... The CHRISTIAN life was predestined to GLORY.

These things we're discussing are applicable to the church of God.. Christ's church, his bride to be.

 

[Eventide]

In a way we could say that all men in the first Adam were predestined to death... Because obviously God foreknew that.. Although its nothing like determinism IMO.. Simply the glorious and infinite foreknowledge of God.

The One who inhabits eternity.

 

[smaller]

Believers are predestined to see predestination and what it means differently.

:yes

s

 

[Eventide]

In the exact same and simple way we could say that all men in the last Adam were predestined to Glory.

 

[Mitspa]

It's not that difficult IMO..

Not a single man was predestined in the first Adam, which is our old man according to the flesh. We know that by the offense of one (the first Adam), that condemnation has come upon all men.. And that by the righteousness of one (the last Adam), we have justification of life..

Our old life is not justified in us.. It is condemned.

The life of Christ (alone) in us is our justification of life.

That life alone... The CHRISTIAN life was predestined to GLORY.

These things we're discussing are applicable to the church of God.. Christ's church, his bride to be.

Not His bride "to be" only! We are His Bride Now, in the "spirit" and we may be conformed NOW! By the Spirit! This kind of doctrine, that "one day we can be like Christ", is why the Church is so weak and carnal !

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Eventide]

Not His bride "to be" only! We are His Bride Now, in the "spirit" and we may be conformed NOW! By the Spirit! This kind of doctrine, that "one day we can be like Christ", is why the Church is so weak and carnal !

The marriage of the Lamb certainly has not yet taken place, for Christ is building His church even today, right now.. And when it is complete, He will present it to Himself a GLORIOUS church, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. In that Day..

And...

Why do you ignore the simple questions I've asked, seriously, I don't understand why you'd completely ignore them... Especially in light of you saying that my point doesn't make sense..

Perfectly simple question..

Do you believe that you were predestined to glory.. ie your old man according to the flesh.. Who you are naturally through your parents..

Is God glorifying that life ?

Of course not.. It's already been condemned a long time ago..

I dont think most people believe that... I think that many people think that they're good, and that God is making them better.. Even born again Christians can think this way.. It seems..

 

[Eventide]

Old things are passed away..BEHOLD, all things are become new...

For ye are dead, and your life is hid in Christ with God.. When He appears, Who is our life.. We shall appear with Him in Glory..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me..

Where are you in this picture..?

Who is our life.. ?

Who is the way, the truth, and the life ?

Is our hope of GLORY Christ in you.. Or Christ AND you..?

 

[Mitspa]

The marriage of the Lamb certainly has not yet taken place, for Christ is building His church even today, right now.. And when it is complete, He will present it to Himself a GLORIOUS church, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. In that Day..

And...

Why do you ignore the simple questions I've asked, seriously, I don't understand why you'd completely ignore them... Especially in light of you saying that my point doesn't make sense..

Perfectly simple question..

Do you believe that you were predestined to glory.. ie your old man according to the flesh.. Who you are naturally through your parents..

Is God glorifying that life ?

Of course not.. It's already been condemned a long time ago..

I dont think most people believe that... I think that many people think that they're good, and that God is making them better.. Even born again Christians can think this way.. It seems..

You would have to reject the whole of the New Testament, and the purpose of the Word of God! To believe what you are trying to state:o

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I could go on, but i think its clear, the Scriptures make "your doctrine" a false one!

 

[Eventide]

Christ and you...

You would have to reject the whole of the New Testament, and the purpose of the Word of God! To believe what you are trying to state:o

Well then you'll continue to believe that God is making you better, and that your old man is being conformed to the image of Christ..

I think it's a fairly large trend in Christendom today, while it dismisses what are perhaps the most foundational aspects of the gospel.

I'll take it that you do believe that your hope of glory is Christ AND you..

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Christ and you...

Well then you'll continue to believe that God is making you better, and that your old man is being conformed to the image of Christ..

I think it's a fairly large trend in Christendom today, while it dismisses what are perhaps the most foundational aspects of the gospel.

I'll take it that you do believe that your hope of glory is Christ AND you..

I dont have to ask other people, although there are millions who can testify that they are in the process of "being conformed to His Image" the "Holy Spirit" and "The Living Word" with signs and wonders and the fruit of the Spirit, all bear witness to the FACT! What do you think the Term "walking in the Spirit" being "spiritual" etc... means? I have never heard anyone who claims to be a "christian" make such a statement as you have just tried to make:eeeekkk

I answered your last quote in a previous post, all according to "SCRIPTURE" !


If i could cause my "spirit man" to jump out of this "earthen vessel" and still fulfill the purpose for which i was called, I WOULD! but please try to understand
that God gets the Glory when The "inner man" overcomes and works past the "flesh"

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If you know God? you know He delights in making the weak, strong! the darkness turn to light!

So again your point makes no biblical sense to me?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ and you...

I dont have to ask other people, although there are millions who can testify that they are in the process of "being conformed to His Image" the "Holy Spirit" and "The Living Word" with signs and wonders and the fruit of the Spirit, all bear witness to the FACT! What do you think the Term "walking in the Spirit" being "spiritual" etc... means? I have never heard anyone who claims to be a "christian" make such a statement as you have just tried to make:eeeekkk

And who is working in you to that end..

Is it you? Your old man..?

Or is it Christ in you ?

IMO this is fairly basic.. It will simply come down to people not believing that they're condemned already... Once again, a foundational principle of the gospel of God concerning His Son.

Don't you believe that God alone is good..? There's another foundational principle of the gospel.. And if so, then how can God be making you better.. Wouldn't that mean that you're good too ?

Do you think that you're good ?

I know you won't answer, although perhaps it will stimulate further thought on the matter..

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Christ and you...

And who is working in you to that end..

Is it you? Your old man..?

Or is it Christ in you ?

IMO this is fairly basic.. It will simply come down to people not believing that they're condemned already... Once again, a foundational principle of the gospel of God concerning His Son.

Don't you believe that God alone is good..? There's another foundational principle of the gospel.. And if so, then how can God be making you better.. Wouldn't that mean that you're good too ?

Do you think that you're good ?

I know you won't answer, although perhaps it will stimulate further thought on the matter..

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is basic Christianity 101


1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Mitspa]

If i could cause my "spirit man" to jump out of this "earthen vessel" and still fulfill the purpose for which i was called, I WOULD! but please try to understand
that God gets the Glory when The "inner man" overcomes and works past the "flesh"

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If you know God? you know He delights in making the weak, strong! the darkness turn to light!

 

[ivdavid]

all men in the first Adam were predestined to death.
all men in the last Adam were predestined to Glory.

True. All glory goes to God this way and none to the flesh, thereby upholding 1Cor 1:29.

DO you think that your hope of glory is Christ AND you ?

Absolutely not - our hope of glory is Christ AND Christ alone. I am being sanctified unto glorification not because of me but inspite of me.

But you have constructed this question as if this is mutually exclusive with the doctrine of unconditional election - why is that? We've already discussed this earlier and I think we're all not referring to the same thing here. The predestined election IN Christ as you mean it is true and since all of us believe it, we never discuss it as an argument. God did foreordain the process of salvation - and it happens only IN Christ - no differing views there. The question however is - how does man In the flesh get IN Christ - What is/are the effective cause(s)? Is it caused because of an act of man in the flesh OR is it caused because of an act of our merciful God OR both? If a person were to hold that it was caused because of God's mercy alone and not man in the flesh's willing[Rom 9:16], the question rises as to what the basis of God's mercy is - and then and only then, and in no contradiction with the predestined election in Christ but rather to fulfill it, we uphold God's sovereignty in showing mercy to whom He wills. Note, This basis denies any merit to the flesh.

Do you think that you're good ?

Are you preaching total depravity here?

I could go on, but i think its clear, the Scriptures make "your doctrine" a false one!

Don't be so quick to conclude. If you try and understand the terms as used by Eventide - especially the difference between just "I" and "I, yet not I, but Christ in me", you'd see that he has only presented the truth. If Christians are to revel in the glory of God alone, they must deny the glory of the flesh/self and for that, we need to know what exactly is meant by the flesh, spirit etc. Perhaps we'll start a new thread on that.

 

[Danus]

God did foreordain the process of salvation - and it happens only IN Christ - no differing views there. The question however is - how does man In the flesh get IN Christ - What is/are the effective cause(s)? Is it caused because of an act of man in the flesh OR is it caused because of an act of our merciful God OR both? If a person were to hold that it was caused because of God's mercy alone and not man in the flesh's willing[Rom 9:16], the question rises as to what the basis of God's mercy is - and then and only then, and in no contradiction with the predestined election in Christ but rather to fulfill it, we uphold God's sovereignty in showing mercy to whom He wills. Note, This basis denies any merit to the flesh.

True. One of few on here to ponder this. If I might add to that thought this question; "does it even matter?"

We could say that there is only one future. Since we can reasonably conclude that there is one past, one present shouldn't there also be one future? for there to be alternate possibilities of a persons path there would have to be more than one future, but despite that God would know what it is.

The other thought is that God wrote the future, or planed it, but either way foreknows it. So with that, does it even matter what man does, or how much his influence is related to what will be of him in the future?

Any thoughts on that in terms of Predestination?

 

[savedbygrace57]

mitsa

I

am not sure what your speaking to? "Predestination" as i have laid out in
previous post, simply means the "way" or "path" has been prepared for those who
"believe".

Thats false doctrine !

 

[Eventide]

The sign of circumcision... The SEAL of the righteousness of the FAITH

The question however is - how does man In the flesh get IN Christ - What is/are the effective cause(s)? Is it caused because of an act of man in the flesh OR is it caused because of an act of our merciful God OR both?

Remember I told you and then it was ignored as if nothing was said.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.. And then he was given the sign of circumcision, which is the SEAL of the righteousness of the faith.

Paul says the exact same thing in Eph.. That it was after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel of our salvation, and after we BELIEVED, that we were SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance unto the praise of the glory of His grace.

Are you preaching total depravity here?

Why would I do that.. There is no such thing in the scriptures.

 

[Mitspa]

mitsa

I

Thats false doctrine !

Please show me my error, (in the Scriptures)

 

[Eventide]

Please show me my error, (in the Scriptures)

Yes, that would be nice wouldn't it, then at least we could have the knowledge to correct ourselves..

And, since you believe the same about me, why don't you show me my error..