What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[Eventide]

I think his people are anyone who believes on the name of Jesus, I don't think God died for everyone's sins, I think if someone believes in Jesus there sins were payed for on the cross, if someone dies unbeliever then there sins were not payed for on the cross. Those who die without there sins payed for will have to pay for them, themselves.

Here's one reason why I believe that Christ died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world..

The WAGES of SIN is DEATH.. and death has passed upon all in the first Adam..

Now what about the resurrection of the DEAD... is that applicable to His people only.. ?

No, it's not.. for even the wicked shall be raised from the DEAD..

So that makes me believe that if the wages of sin is death, and that ALL men are going to be raised from the DEAD, then that penalty must have fallen upon someone else..

Any guesses..?

 

[greatisthelight]

The debate over unconditional election (Predestination) is not whether or not God elects or predestines people to salvation but upon what basis He elects them. Is that election based upon foreknowledge that those individuals will have faith in Christ, or is it based upon God’s sovereign choice to save them? As the word “unconditional†implies, this view believes that God’s election of people to salvation is done “with no conditions attached, either foreseen or otherwise.†God elects people to salvation by His own sovereign choice and not because of some future action they will perform or condition they will meet. Those who come to Christ become His children by His will, not by theirs. “They were not God's children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children†John 1:13

I see your point, but where in the Bible does it mention some people are predestined to Hell, I never found one stating that. I read where God hates those who go to Hell, but never one verse which states he predestines them to go there.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: The MIND of CHRIST...

No kidding... I love the word of God and agree with every single infinite bit of it..

Now would you be kind enough to show me the error in my thinking so that we can all learn from it..

You did say that what I'm saying is false doctrine.. and that's the last thing in the world I would like to bring to the body of Christ.

As I stated in a prior post, we may be speaking past each other, because of "terms" we are using? Also it seems the only topic some want to discuss is the "doctrines of Calvin"? I think some of you take-up the same discussion on each thread regardless of the "topic"? Instead of taking a simple view of the scriptures, and learning from each other?

1Pe 2:1






Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2



As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

 

[Danus]

I see your point, but where in the Bible does it mention some people are predestined to Hell, I never found one stating that. I read where God hates those who go to Hell, but never one verse which states he predestines them to go there.

Where does it say God hates those who go to hell? I mean HATE is a strong word.

However, the bible taken as a whole, describes man's fall, and Gods plan of reconciliation with man. We still can't fathom God's choice in anyone, and we don't like the idea of God not choosing some, but I bet I can shatter that, by asking the question; is there anyone you feel should not be in haven?

So we tend to place the onus, or culpability for salvation on man because that seems to make the most sense, and while we could read the bible that way, or read that idea into the scripture, that still leaves us with a lot of reconciliation of the scriptures that speak of God choosing people and predestining people for salvation.

One thing we can clearly say man is culpable for, is sin. That we can say, because the bible is very clear on that. We can also say that not all are saved. The bible is clear on that. It's also clear that no man is worthy of salvation, so trying to fit that any man has merit for salvation is a problem with scripture. We could say we are simply solving that problem by saying God chooses, but that's what scripture dose say.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The MIND of CHRIST...

As I stated in a prior post, we may be speaking past each other, because of "terms" we are using? Also it seems the only topic some want to discuss is the "doctrines of Calvin"? I think some of you take-up the same discussion on each thread regardless of the "topic"? Instead of taking a simple view of the scriptures, and learning from each other?

1Pe 2:1






Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2



As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

I couldn't agree more..

Calvin had nothing which we don't have today... and while I certainly enjoy reading the commentaries of others.. they're simply that.. doesn't matter WHO you are.. imo.. some of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ were unlearned fisherman.. and the only thing that mattered is that they were with Christ.

And that's fine if you can't point out an error in what I have said here.. because that would be BAD ! Wouldn't it.. any person proposing errors to God's sons and daughters should be addressed.

And I wouldn't want to consider your request to SBG as hypocritical.. I'd expect the same from you if you know what I mean.

 

[rrowell]

Here's one reason why I believe that Christ died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world..

The WAGES of SIN is DEATH.. and death has passed upon all in the first Adam..

Now what about the resurrection of the DEAD... is that applicable to His people only.. ?

No, it's not.. for even the wicked shall be raised from the DEAD..

So that makes me believe that if the wages of sin is death, and that ALL men are going to be raised from the DEAD, then that penalty must have fallen upon someone else..

Any guesses..?

Every man is appointed to die, and all men will be raised from the dead, but those "in Christ" and only those in Christ will be taken up:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Eventide]

Every man is appointed to die, and all men will be raised from the dead, but those "in Christ" and only those in Christ will be taken up:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to this scripture.. absolutely true imo.. because this is written to the church of God..

 

[Mitspa]

Re: The MIND of CHRIST...

I couldn't agree more..

Calvin had nothing which we don't have today... and while I certainly enjoy reading the commentaries of others.. they're simply that.. doesn't matter WHO you are.. imo.. some of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ were unlearned fisherman.. and the only thing that mattered is that they were with Christ.

And that's fine if you can't point out an error in what I have said here.. because that would be BAD ! Wouldn't it.. any person proposing errors to God's sons and daughters should be addressed.

And I wouldn't want to consider your request to SBG as hypocritical.. I'd expect the same from you if you know what I mean.

This is what I see As one who is "spiritual" and has the authority to judge according to Word of God.
That many "new believers" are searching for answers on this forum, that it is our responsibility to them, not to try and make simple issues complex for sake of our own egos
I believe the Lord stated it this way;

1Co 1:26



For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27



But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28



And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 

[savedbygrace57]

I think I laid out my view of "predestination" in post #4. A very simple matter for a very simple gospel!

Luk 18:17



Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

The only thing you did was define the word predestination which I had already done. Now you need to prove your point with scripture that it means what you said it means, because I am not taking your word for it.

 

[greatisthelight]

Where does it say God hates those who go to hell? I mean HATE is a strong word.

However, the bible taken as a whole, describes man's fall, and Gods plan of reconciliation with man. We still can't fathom God's choice in anyone, and we don't like the idea of God not choosing some, but I bet I can shatter that, by asking the question; is there anyone you feel should not be in haven?

So we tend to place the onus, or culpability for salvation on man because that seems to make the most sense, and while we could read the bible that way, or read that idea into the scripture, that still leaves us with a lot of reconciliation of the scriptures that speak of God choosing people and predestining people for salvation.

One thing we can clearly say man is culpable for, is sin. That we can say, because the bible is very clear on that. We can also say that not all are saved. The bible is clear on that. It's also clear that no man is worthy of salvation, so trying to fit that any man has merit for salvation is a problem with scripture. We could say we are simply solving that problem by saying God chooses, but that's what scripture dose say.

Psalm 11:5-7

5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

God hates those who do wicked.

 

[Danus]

God hates those who do wicked.

Let's not tray too far from predestination. Who then are the wicked?

Those that don't choose God by their own free will?

 

[Mitspa]

The only thing you did was define the word predestination which I had already done. Now you need to prove your point with scripture that it means what you said it means, because I am not taking your word for it.

Well lets go point by point? do you agree in general that the "term" is about a "way"
or "path" as descirbed in scipture? If not? help me understand your concerns?

 

[rrowell]

Let's not tray too far from predestination. Who then are the wicked?

Those that don't choose God by their own free will?

Danus, let me give you an example likened to the predestination taught in the Bible.

I am going to have a dinner, I say this "I am having dinner at my house at 3:00pm, anyone who wants to eat may come"...

Now the "dinner" is predestined, it is at exactly 3:00pm, now I know I am going to have a dinner at 3:00pm, I may not know who will be there but all who come may eat at my dinner...

The Church and the salvation in it is predestined, it does not have a list of names that are invited, but any who do the will of Jesus he has invited and are welcome. even you....

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

So we tend to place the onus, or culpability for salvation on man because that seems to make the most sense, and while we could read the bible that way, or read that idea into the scripture, that still leaves us with a lot of reconciliation of the scriptures that speak of God choosing people and predestining people for salvation.

Where is there a text that specifically states that God chooses anyone to salvation or predestination?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well lets go point by point? do you agree in general that the "term" is about a "way"
or "path" as descirbed in scipture? If not? help me understand your concerns?

I agree with the definition of the word predestination. You need to show from scripture that it means what you said it means, that you have failed to do. Just do it!

 

[Mitspa]

I agree with the definition of the word predestination. You need to show from scripture that it means what you said it means, that you have failed to do. Just do it!

I think to understand to term "predestination" one must consider its simple meaning?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo

(pro- before)


horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

I believe it simple means that God has made a "path" a "way" for all who believe to be conformed to the "Image Of His Son" by way of the truth!

Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 25:10All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Thus we have the "Gospel" in terms of "walking with the Lord on His Paths!
"Walking in the Spirit" etc..

Now having made "the way" or "path" the Lord has a "destination" in mind?

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This is a process, with the requirement of being set free from the "law" and by the power of "the ministry of righteousness" we are conformed from faith to faith, glory to glory!

So then we must continue in faith and growth in "grace" to be conformed to "His Image" thus we arrive at the "pre-determined" "destination".

I believe this is a "simple doctrine" not complex!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein

What part are you having trouble with?

I need to know where you are at?
Do you have a point or question i can adress?

 

[JLB]

I think to understand to term "predestination" one must consider its simple meaning?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo

(pro- before)


horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizonâ€), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

I believe it simple means that God has made a "path" a "way" for all who believe to be conformed to the "Image Of His Son" by way of the truth!

Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 25:10All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Thus we have the "Gospel" in terms of "walking with the Lord on His Paths!
"Walking in the Spirit" etc..

Now having made "the way" or "path" the Lord has a "destination" in mind?

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This is a process, with the requirement of being set free from the "law" and by the power of "the ministry of righteousness" we are conformed from faith to faith, glory to glory!

So then we must continue in faith and growth in "grace" to be conformed to "His Image" thus we arrive at the "pre-determined" "destination".

I believe this is a "simple doctrine" not complex!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein

What part are you having trouble with?

I need to know where you are at?
Do you have a point or question i can adress?

I believe it simple means that God has made a "path" a "way" for all who believe to be conformed to the "Image Of His Son" by way of the truth!

Here is what Paul said about people who constantly talk about the scriptures and quote the scriptures, but don't have any revelation by The Spirit, nor do they have any power because they have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:5-7
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

... always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


That means they talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk!

They talk about the truth, they are constantly learning about the truth, but they are not experiencing the truth for themselves.

It is the Holy Spirit the leads us into the truth.

We must be led in the paths of righteousness!

We must be led by the Spirit.

First, we must be filled with the Spirit!


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Thought it might be time for a new thread since we are wearing out some of the other threads about choices and grace, the will of man and the will of God.

I've seen where many have been stumbling into the subject of predestination, and since it's part of the will of God, I thought it appropriate to start a fresh thread.

Obviously I will be posting the reformed Protestant view here. You can call it Calvinism if you like, but this same view was shared by many great evangelicals and even taught by Paul himself. In fact Paul's writings are the source of the ideology and he get's it strait from the OT, God himself.

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.†Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.†Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.

The words translated “predestined†in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,†“ordain,†“to decide upon ahead of time.†So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!â€

Ref: http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=23852

It means to set the boundries or in other words predetermine.

 

[Cassian]

Danus

However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.......

Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.....

Predestination has never been a biblical doctrine. It is a doctrine developed by Calvin and imposed upon scripture. There is no text in all of scripture that says that God chose anyone to be individually saved.

God did chose the elect, those that would believe, to be conformed to His Image, to be made Holy, and blameless. But no place does it ever say that God chose anyone to be an elect or the inverse, not an elect.

YOur references in your OP are all to the elect, not an elect. He never chose anyone to be an elect. He chose the elect for particular service and to receive special grace.

Rom 9:11 makes this quite clear as well. Israel is of elction, not an Israelite. In all of scripture there is only one other group that is elected, the disciples. None of them were chosen to be saved, but to be disciples, to perform a service. Two individuals in scripture were also elected, Christ and Paul. But obviously neither was chosen to be saved.

Historically, predestination does not exist as a doctrine until Calvin. It is wholly a man made theory imposed upon scripture by misinterpreting prooftexts.

 

[farouk]

I thought it was in Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1, etc.?