What exactly does Revelation 14 teach?

[jocor]

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
This angel announces "the harvest of the earth" (not "the harvest of heaven"). The Greek word translated as "ripe" is xeraino can mean dried or mature (ripe). Whichever way it is taken, this is metaphorically "the harvest of the earth", which will be further clarified in the next few verses. There is no hint whatsoever that this is speaking of saints, because the saints are not "of the earth". Scripture says that we are already seated with Christ in heaven (Eph 2:6). And we will not be of the earth at the Rapture because we will be glorified, incorruptible, immortal (1 Cor 15:51-53). Thus the emphasis on "the earth" is already separating sinners from saints.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:​

Paul says when a saint dies, he is sown in the ground (earth). At the appointed time, the earth will give up its fruit. The harvest of souls will take place. "Of the earth" is used because it is the earth that is bringing forth the saints upon their resurrection.

Your belief in a rapture skews your understanding.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
The first angel addressed the Son of Man. This angel addresses the angel with the sickle. And now we know exactly what this harvest it. It is THE GRAPES which are clusters OF THE VINE OF THE EARTH. Again we have a reference to "the earth" and we will now see that this picture is a metaphor for the sinners on earth which are about to be detroyed. God has been longsuffering with sinners for a long time, but now the harvest is ripe. This harvest is identical with what is mentioned in verses 15 and 16. The "grapes" are the wicked, and they will be crushed in the winepress of God's wrath.

To say "this harvest is identical with what is mentioned in verses 15 and 16" is eisegesis, not exegesis. Explain to us how this second harvest, which is done by a different reaper at a different time, can be identical. If the harvest of the earth was reaped by Yeshua, then the grapes were NOT part of that harvest since they are not reaped until later.

Just as the literal harvest of earth takes place in stages with varying crops harvested at different times, so too is the spiritual harvest. The first crop reaped is barely (Yeshua). Then the wheat is harvested (the saints). One of the last crops harvested are grapes.

Where, in Revelation, do you see the wheat harvest?

Given the plain literal interpretation of this passage, and knowing that the "harvest" is a metaphor for the destruction of the wicked, we have no business introducing the "harvest" of the saints into this, and muddying the waters.

"Harvest" is a metaphor for the destruction of the wicked as well as the resurrection of the saints. (Matthew 13)

 

[Malachi]

Explain to us how this second harvest, which is done by a different reaper at a different time, can be identical.

"Second harvest" "different time" is what some would like to superimpose on Scripture. The entire passage is about just one harvest which is that of the ungodly destined for the winepress of God's wrath. There is absolutely no way that "the resurrection of the saints" could even be imagined in this scenario. It is neither right nor prudent to do violence to Scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

So why are you still persisting that the Church is to be found in Revelation chapter 14, which is all about God's wrath?

We will not be affected by Gods wrath as His wrath is on the unjust. Rev 6:6 the black horseman was not allowed to hurt the oil and the wine. The oil represents the anointing of the Holy Spirit that is found in the wine/we who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, Eph 4:30, and speaks through us as we preach the word of God to others. Those who are still alive in Christ during the seven trumpet calls up to the harvest judgment will be preaching to the unjust. The sealing and anointing of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that reach up to heaven is what is going to keep us from the wrath of God falling on us as we are prayed up to do the will of God during this time of great tribulation, Matthew 24:21, as we will witness those things that will be unbearable to see of Gods wrath during the seven trumpet sounds. Rev 6:6 was a warning not to touch Gods anointed, 1 Chronicles 16:22. The seven trumpet calls are Gods warning to the unjust as they are chastised of God in hopes that they will turn back to His mercy and grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I am not wilfully ignoring or misquoting your posts. Let's leave aside the term "wheat harvest" for the moment altogether.

What I am pointing out is that there is absolutely no way that any part of Rev 14:14-20 can be interpreted as a disclosure of two harvests. The "harvest of the earth" in verse 15 is identical to the "vine of the earth" in verses 18 and 19, and the whole passage speaks about the wrath of God. This is what I have been trying to bring across, and all the speculation and conjecture cannot change what is plainly revealed right there. The phrase "of the earth" in itself is a pointer. There is no mention of Heaven here.

As what you have stated here makes me now know you never read my post #15. You even said that Matthew Henry adds his own thought to his commentaries as to what he thinks scripture is saying and that is nothing more than a carnal minds logic that you seem to be following as you quote him so much and can become very deceiving to those who lack knowledge. Many will follow a mans teachings thinking they are true for after all they are respected by many Christians as authoritative, but if you do not get into the word for yourself you will too be deceived.

 

[Malachi]

We will not be affected by Gods wrath as His wrath is on the unjust

That's not the point. The point is to misinterpret and misapply a portion of Scripture which has nothing to do with the resurrection or Rapture of the saints, and everything to do with the destruction of the ungodly. God is not the Author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). And let's just forget about Matthew Henry or any other commentator for the moment. I have shown you exactly what that passage is revealing to us, and there is absolutely nothing there about the saints and their Rapture or resurrection. That's what you should focus on.

 

[Malachi]

Where, in Revelation, do you see the wheat harvest?

Since "wheat" represents believers (the Church), you will not find a wheat harvest taking place on earth from Rev 6 to Rev 19, because that harvest has already taken place. When you see the countless saints in HEAVEN praising and worshipping God in Rev 7:9, that is proof that their "harvest" had already occurred, and they were now in Heaven -- immortal, incorruptible, glorious, and in the very presence of God and of the Lamb.

When did it occur? That is not revealed in Revelation, but is inferred by the fact that neither "Church" nor "churches" are found mentioned after Rev 3:22. Hence the belief in a pre-tribulational Rapture (along with many other solid reasons supported by Scripture).

 

[for_his_glory]

That's not the point. The point is to misinterpret and misapply a portion of Scripture which has nothing to do with the resurrection or Rapture of the saints, and everything to do with the destruction of the ungodly. God is not the Author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). And let's just forget about Matthew Henry or any other commentator for the moment. I have shown you exactly what that passage is revealing to us, and there is absolutely nothing there about the saints and their Rapture or resurrection. That's what you should focus on.

I think we need to start with Chapter 2 in Revelations to see that the Church, body of Christ, saints of God, Spiritually born again Christian or whatever name we give to those who are truly Gods people are here until that of Rev 14. I wish I could post the whole thing that took me three days to write, but it's five pages long so will use parts of it here.

Starting in Revelation Chapter 2 we see John on the isle that is called Patmos and on the Lords day Christ starts His revelation that God gave Him to give to John through the Holy Spirit while John is in the Spirit. John never left Patmos to be actually taken up to heaven, but was only in the Spirit while on the isle as he heard a great voice as a trumpet as the voice was very distinct to him like that of hearing a trumpet sound. The first thing that was revealed to him was that of the seven spirits the Church needs to be able to endure what must come before the return of Christ, Revelation Chapter 2, 3. Starting in Chapter 4 John sees as it were a door opened in heaven before him as John was given a vision of what heaven looked like.

Chapter 5 John is shown that of a sealed book that only Jesus was worthy of opening as He overcame all things while here on earth and was the only one worthy to open the seals of the book. The first four seals are that of four horses and what their riders bring with them. The first is false Christ, second to take peace from the earth, third is famine and the fourth is death and hell as found in the grave. Notice how each one is in succession of the other from first to last as already spoken by Christ in Matthew 24:5-8 as being the beginning of sorrows. The fifth seal shows John all those who have already been slain for the word of God that are asleep in the grave waiting for God to avenge them, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, but yet are told to rest a little while until their fellow servants that will be killed needs to be fulfilled. The sixth seal was opened and revealed to John that of what to look for right before Christ returns that was soon to come to pass as this was also shown to the Disciples in Matthew 24:29. Now between the sixth and seventh seal we see something that interrupts that which is being revealed to John as we see 144,000 Jews.

This is the importance of the 144,000. They are called the first fruit that have the seal of God on them as the Disciples were called first to the lost sheep of the house of

Israel as they were not allowed by Jesus to go to the Gentile nations, Matthew 10:6, as Paul would be called to preach to them, Acts 9:15, 16. They were called virgins in Revelation 8:4 as in being Spiritual virgins because they did not commit spiritual fornication/defiled with following false religions and their false teachings. As the Disciples went out to preach Jesus to them, Matthew 10:6, they became Spiritually renewed/born again, John 3:3-7, Romans 10:9, 10 made ready to go out into the world to preach the Gospel of Christ.

Revelation 7:9-17 speaks of a great multitude of Gentiles. Revelation 7:13 we see one of the elders in heaven ask John what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? The elder probably recognized the Jews, but not the Gentiles that were with them under the alter, Galatians 3:28. John replied back in vs. 14 that the elder should know who they are as they are Jews and Gentiles that have become as one body of Christ making up the true Church that have made themselves ready as a Bride for her Groom through the washing of His blood.

 

[n2thelight]

Anti-Christ cannot reveal himself and the 7 year tribulation cannot begin into the bride of Christ is removed. 2Nd Thessalonians 2:3-Let no man deceive you by any means for that come the fallen away(departure). Than Israel will sign a 7 year peace agreement with the Anti-Christ(7 year tribulation). I think the rapture will come at sudden destruction. 1St Thessalonians 5:3-while they are saying peace and security, sudden destruction upon THEM as a woman in labor and THEY will not escape, this is pretty much saying WE will escape. They will not escape, WE will, on them, not US. Sorry this was typed on my phone, might be a few grammatical errors. So ya pre-trib for this guy. God Bless

Donovb

The falling away is not a removal but a falling away from truth

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Our gathering is the subject

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.
The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].
What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.
Then Christ will destroy Satan.

 

[n2thelight]

The contention that the Church no longer exists after Chapter 4 is patently wrong. There is not just the mention of the "elect" and the "bride" but of the "churches".

CHURCH Re 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you {The Greek is plural.} this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The purpose of the true Church, which is the bride of Christ, is to preach the Gospel! We are to preach the Gospel till He comes. Matt. 24:44-46 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Not only are "churches" and "the bride" mentioned but the saints are mentioned numerous times. The saints are what make up the churches. They are not some special designation for people saved during the Tribulation who are not part of the Church. Where there are believers there is the Church. Mt 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Ac 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No-one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.The saints are mentioned in Chapter 5 and beyond.

SAINTS

Re 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Re 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
Re 8:4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

Re 11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Re 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Re 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed {Some manuscripts anyone kills} with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Re 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.This proves that the first three chapters of Revelation have great relevance to what will happen in the Tribulation because the saints, the Church, will have to suffer the attempt of the AntiChrist to wipe them out.

 

[Sinthesis]

I do not write these things to persuade you, but because I see them this way. And I would only ask that study these verses carefully, and perhaps you will begin to see the distinctions that I am referring to.

This would be a great signature line for anybody.

 

[jocor]

"Second harvest" "different time" is what some would like to superimpose on Scripture. The entire passage is about just one harvest which is that of the ungodly destined for the winepress of God's wrath. There is absolutely no way that "the resurrection of the saints" could even be imagined in this scenario. It is neither right nor prudent to do violence to Scripture.

Then you are saying the "one harvest" has two different reapers? Yeshua reaped the harvest, but then some angel reaped it again?

 

[jocor]

Since "wheat" represents believers (the Church), you will not find a wheat harvest taking place on earth from Rev 6 to Rev 19, because that harvest has already taken place. When you see the countless saints in HEAVEN praising and worshipping God in Rev 7:9, that is proof that their "harvest" had already occurred, and they were now in Heaven -- immortal, incorruptible, glorious, and in the very presence of God and of the Lamb.

When did it occur? That is not revealed in Revelation, but is inferred by the fact that neither "Church" nor "churches" are found mentioned after Rev 3:22. Hence the belief in a pre-tribulational Rapture (along with many other solid reasons supported by Scripture).

Rev 11:18 speaks of the "wheat harvest" because it is dealing with the resurrection of the saints:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.​

If the saints were already resurrected and given their reward (eternal life upon their resurrection), then what is happening here? The birth of the male child in Rev 12 is a prophetic picture of them being resurrected and ascending to heaven.

Rev 7:9 is a prophetic picture of what will happen AFTER the 7th trumpet sounds to resurrect them. If the people in Rev 7:9 were already resurrected, then they resurrected BEFORE the last trumpet. How can that be? The 7th trumpet is not only the last trumpet in a series of seven, but it is the last trumpet mentioned in the entire Bible.

 

[Donovb]

Anti-Christ cannot reveal himself and the 7 year tribulation cannot begin into the bride of Christ is removed. 2Nd Thessalonians 2:3-Let no man deceive you by any means for that come the fallen away(departure). Than Israel will sign a 7 year peace agreement with the Anti-Christ(7 year tribulation). I think the rapture will come at sudden destruction. 1St Thessalonians 5:3-while they are saying peace and security, sudden destruction upon THEM as a woman in labor and THEY will not escape, this is pretty much saying WE will escape. They will not escape, WE will, on them, not US. Sorry this was typed on my phone, might be a few grammatical errors. So ya pre-trib for this guy. God Bless

Donovb

The falling away is not a removal but a falling away from truth

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Our gathering is the subject

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.
The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].
What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.
Then Christ will destroy Satan.

Hello one love
The fallen away can be a little deceiving. Pre 1611 KJV from the original Greek, probably the most accurate version of all Bibles calls it a departure instead of a fallen away. Interesting huh? Look it up

 

[Gregg]

That's not the point. The point is to misinterpret and misapply a portion of Scripture which has nothing to do with the resurrection or Rapture of the saints, and everything to do with the destruction of the ungodly. God is not the Author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). And let's just forget about Matthew Henry or any other commentator for the moment. I have shown you exactly what that passage is revealing to us, and there is absolutely nothing there about the saints and their Rapture or resurrection. That's what you should focus on.

Malachi,

What exactly does Revelation 14:12 teach you? - "Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus."

If it is true that a portion of Rev 14 does not regard the Church, then why this verse regarding those who have the faith of Jesus?

 

[Donovb]

These

Malachi,

What exactly does Revelation 14:12 teach you? - "Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus."

If it is true that a portion of Rev 14 does not regard the Church, then why this verse regarding those who have the faith of Jesus?

These are the people that found Jesus during the tribulation and will live in the millenium. If there was a post trib, and Jesus came at the end of the tribulation, than who is going to be left to live in the millenium? The nonbelievers? Aren't the non believers going to be burned in the lake of fire?

 

[Malachi]

Malachi,

What exactly does Revelation 14:12 teach you? - "Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus."

If it is true that a portion of Rev 14 does not regard the Church, then why this verse regarding those who have the faith of Jesus?

Gregg,

As I already pointed out earlier, there will be a BELIEVING JEWISH REMNANT -- "the remnant of her [Israel's] seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). These are the ones "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12). Some are martyred (Rev 12:11) and some are preserved "in the wilderness" (Rev 12:6,17) during the Tribulation Period. But they do believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua ha Mashiach) that is why they "have the faith of Jesus".

 

[Ricko]

Revelation 14:14-20 is a description of God's judgement and wrath. Back in verse 7 we are told to fear God and give Him glory for the hour of His judgement has come. Verses 12-13 give a word of encouragement to the tribulation saints, then verse 14 continues the theme of God's wrath. I don't see how the the rapture is connected with this verse. Paul says we are called to meet Him in the air at the last trump, not to meet Him carrying a sharp sickle. I see 14-16 and 17-20 as two separate visions but with the same theme. We have similar visions of God's wrath in both the old and new testaments. John the Baptist asked those coming to hear him "who warned you to flee from the wrath of God?" Peter in 2 Peter speaks about the elements melting and the earth being burned. Paul spoke of God's wrath in Romans. In Isiah 63 and Joel 3 are similar visions. It is not uncommon that we are given repetition in the bible, but is this repetition? No. There are 2 different aspects of the judgement that is yet to come. First, we'll see the seven bowl judgements that come at the end of tribulation. Then then the final judgement that is the battle of Armageddon when Christ actually returns to the Earth. These both correlate to the two vision in this section.

 

[Malachi]

I see 14-16 and 17-20 as two separate visions but with the same theme.

Whether these are two separate visions, or one continuous sequential vision (for which there can be no real objection), the fact remains that this portion of Scripture focuses on the"winepress" of God's wrath. Once this is accepted by mid- or post-tribulationists, they must then search the Scriptures for the timing of the Rapture for themselves.

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians is the seventh trumpet of Rev 11:15. There can not be a pretrib Rapture before "The Great Tribulation" after the last trump is sounded according to Rev Chapter 6-11 as in Rev 11:15 the last trump is sounded. Those of us that are in Christ and He in us are still alive during the opening of the seven seals, Rev 6:1-8, that lead into the seven trumpets being sounded, Rev Chapter 8-11, have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. During the seven trumpets we see Gods wrath from chapters 8-11 fall on those who have rejected Christ, but yet we are still here to preach the word of God to those who are under Gods wrath as only God knows whose names have been written in the book of life even before the foundation of the world.

My question is where do you see a pretrib in all of this as even we, again who are alive and in Christ, will go through the mark of the beast in Rev 13 as many will be persecuted to death. Rev 14:14-20 is the harvest judgment where as it is spoken in Matthew 13:30 Christ returns in the clouds and gathers the harvest which are we who are asleep in the ground and still alive at this time of gathering.

 

[n2thelight]

These

These are the people that found Jesus during the tribulation and will live in the millenium. If there was a post trib, and Jesus came at the end of the tribulation, than who is going to be left to live in the millenium? The nonbelievers? Aren't the non believers going to be burned in the lake of fire?

In what manner does the Bible say Jesus Christ shall return?:

Ok, did the Scriptures tell us in what manner Jesus Christ shall return to us at the Second Advent. You know it did, as the Scriptures tell us of all things. In the book of Acts, we see Christ leaving the earth and returning to Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God till this day. Let's join in on the last conversation that Christ had face-to-face with His Disciples:

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (KJV)

Oh-oh, there's that word 'clouds' again. The Rapturist is twitching right about now. Let's allow the two Angels of God (the two men stood in white apparel) to clarify what this means for us in the next verse:

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (KJV)

Does this say that they will someday be raptured up into a cloud to go to Jesus, or, does it say that Jesus shall RETURN to them the SAME way He left them on the earth, from the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem? The term 'clouds' simply refers to innumerable company of Angels in the Heavens that met Christ at the ascension from the Mount of Olives and the same that shall return with Him at the Second Advent to execute wrath upon a disobedient world who is worshiping the false christ, and terminate this earth age. I bet our Sunday-schoolers got it right. But like I said, whenever the rapturist sees the word 'clouds' his mind gets cloudy.

It also speaks of the Second Advent in { Rev 1:7} where it states that Christ will appear with clouds (multitudes) and come down to earth. It says in {Zech 14:4} that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If at Jesus Christ' next (and only) coming, He is standing on the Mount of Olives, where in the heck did the Rapture saints go prior to this, and with whom did they go? Answer: They were taken in deception by the first messiah, the false messiah, the false christ antichrist. They didn't physically go anywhere, they just spiritually whored after the wrong christ, the antichrist, which is to say satan. Is this not crystal clear?!?

In their fear, the rapturist has devised an imaginary escape plan from the end-time prophesies of God. Oh how satan loves to play upon fear. They would be better to have faith that God shall protect them as He has promised them that He would during the Great Tribulation. Stand up and act like a man, woman, or child of God and quit cowering to satan, he cannot hurt those who have the seal of God in their forehead, that is to say, God's truth! Learn the truth and be set free from the bondage of fear.

I say that so harshly because I care about what happens to you. Soft words of peace, sweet by-and-by's, and little love poems won't cut it here, we are in the final generation, the book of Revelation was written to our generation and none other! That is why the book has been a mystery to prior generations of Biblical Scholars, but childishly simple for our final generation to comprehend. If you don't study and learn the truth now, instead of listening to satan's Rapture teachers, then you shall be deceived and you will worship the wrong one - period!

http://biblestudysite.com/rapture2.htm#4