What exactly does Revelation 14 teach?

[n2thelight]

'Spirit of Slumber' and 'Strong Delusion;' Grace for the timid

Here is where the grace of God enters in. As it is written, God has blinded many to the truth. This is written as:"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day" {Rom 11:7-11}, and spoken as those who:"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not" {Isa 6:9-11}, and again:"For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered" {Isa 29:10}.... God does this not as a punishment, but rather as a gift by His grace. Let me explain.


God knows that many are too weak spiritually to stand against the greatest deception that has ever, or ever will be unleashed upon mankind; which is (satan's) imitating and impersonating the true Messiah Jesus Christ: "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" {Mark 13:19}. I mean really, look around you, even among those who profess to be Christians, how many of them really have even a clue of the plan of God as set forth in the Bible, BOTH the Old Testament and New Testaments? The average Christian today cannot even identify the name of many of the Old Testament books, many even have Bibles that have no Old Testament in them (satan must love that one!). Did not Jesus Himself say of the Old Testament Law (Gen- Duet) and the Prophets (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Malachi...): Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus speaking)17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)For the New Testament is the fulfillment of the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament. How will the Christian ever know what is to befall this world if he doesn't read the prophecies?

But anyway, in the below Scripture we see that the spiritual blindness placed upon the people by God Himself is a protection that they may be spared the judgment due to a 'satan worshiper,' because they have none understanding in what they shall do. Many will be taught in the Millennium {Rev 20:4-5}, and then they will be tested when satan is once again released from the Pit {Rev 20:7-8}. Then it is on to Judgment Day {Rev 20:11-15}.

But do not think that this is a second chance, there are no second chances! It is just that by the grace of God many are blinded in such a fashion that they did not have a real first chance to resist satan. For God knows that they are weak people, but not evil people none the less.

However lest someone think that they can con God: Voluntary ignorance is not a valid excuse on Judgment Day! So if you have an unction to learn the truth and if this plan of God as written to us in His Bible makes sense to you, do not try to play ignorant hoping to fall into the category of the spiritually blinded. God is not one to play with and He cannot be fooled. If this makes any sense to you at all, it could be that God wishes to use you. But you are only of good assistance and obedience to your Heavenly Father if you study and understand His Word and His plan. If all of this sounds like 'science fiction' to the reader, then go back to sleep and hopefully for your sake we shall see you in {Ezek 44:23} which are the events that transpire in the prophesied Millennium teaching period of {Rev 20:4}.

Rom 11:7-117 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (KJV)​

 

[n2thelight]

What is the hidden danger of Rapture 'Doctrines' ?:

Some might say that as long as those who believe in a Rapture also believe upon Jesus Christ, what harm could it do to believe that they will be 'taken' in a Rapture before the antichrist comes. It would possibly do you no everlasting harm to believe in a Rapture theory your whole Christian life, then in the process of time die before you unwittingly worship the false christ. Those who have in good faith, believed in a Rapture doctrine and have passed on in times past will not have the opportunity to worship the false christ antichrist when he comes, because they truly "will be gone.' The only concern they may have is that they undoubtedly have led many others astray by teaching the false doctrine of Rapture, and those that they taught might be here when antichrist comes. But like I said, there is a certain innocence in ignorance and let God be the Judge. We judge no man, although we do discern false doctrine and speak against them with the Holy Scriptures of God as our Witness.

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation, there will be no "Rapture of the righteous!" What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before."? {Mat 24:25}. He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' before the Second Advent will believe that the antichrist truly is the Messiah Jesus Christ. That is the danger in the Rapture theories (among the other false church systems, dogmas, and doctrines of men), they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first, the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Messiah Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent. Hence Jesus mused: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" {Luke 18:8}. Will He?!? Will he find you being faithful or worshipping satan the antichrist, waiting in line to be Raptured somewhere? God knows. Mark 13:23-27
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)And really, isn't the Rapture theory just another way of man manufacturing a second chance? Just as with Buddhism (another lie from satan), where if you don't get it right in this life time you can be reincarnated for another chance. In the same way, do not the Rapture doctors teach you what to do if you 'miss the boat' on the Rapture? Sure they do, they even have movies and books dedicated to guiding those who weren't Raptured. The "Left behind" series is one such farce, supported by most of the more vocal Rapture doctors.

Beloved, there is no second chance, is it not written: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" {Heb 9:27}. A Rapture of some before the end, would constitute a second chance for those not taken who did not overcome and were not taken up in the first out-gathering. There are no second chances!


If you believe in a Rapture doctrine, any rapture doctrine, here is what is sadly going to happen to you: The end times will come upon us in this generation as the Bible states that they shall: " Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." {Luke 21:32}.

And then there will be 'one' who comes stating that he is the Messiah of God. This 'one', "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." {2nd Thes 2:4}, will state that he is here to save the world from itself and from their sins.

You will observe that you were not raptured out of here and that that there was in fact no Rapture. You will begin to wonder if this one is truly Jesus Christ or the impostor (whom the Rapturist hasn't been warned about). However, you will be totally unprepared to make that judgment because you had spent your whole Christian life waiting to removed before this time came.

You will have absolutely no chance to withstand the deception because quite frankly, you have been kept ignorant to the prophecies of it's very existence, and thus wholly unprepared to discern the events that are transpiring around you in rapid-fire succession. You are exactly where satan has craftily led you.

We do not want this to happen to you, for we know that the Rapturist' truly do love the Lord and abhor the devil. Don't allow satan to prostitute your soul, which, while not a very nice way to put it, is in fact what shall transpire if you do not stop listening to false teachers and start listening to your Heavenly Father and study His Word, the Bible, instead of the non-Biblical fantasies dreamed up by the Rapture teachers.Sorry friend; But satan wants you to think there is always time later to obey God, always time later to study His letter to you, the Bible that containing all warnings; always time later....

'Later' never comes until it is 'now,' and then it is too late, satan knows this. You must study God's Word now, for all true wisdom comes from God: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." {Prov 1:7}. It is the wisdom of our Heavenly Father's Word, contained in the Bible, that shall protect us from the deception and false doctrines of men of reprobate hearts.

Prov 4:1-7
1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. (KJV)​

 

[Sinthesis]

Can we all agree that Rev 14 is not literal? That insisting we must take Rev 14 literally is a non-starter?

 

[smaller]

Can we all agree that Rev 14 is not literal? That insisting we must take Rev 14 literally is a non-starter?

The entirety of Revelation is undoubtedly allegorical.

It is quite pointless to take Rev. literally as that restricts and forces it's conveyances and applications to 'place and time' observations which brings an allegorical mountain of troubling conclusions that will not compute and were never meant to compute.

 

[Malachi]

Can we all agree that Rev 14 is not literal? That insisting we must take Rev 14 literally is a non-starter?

While "sickle", "vine" and "grapes" are metaphors, there is absolutely no reason why we should not take Rev 14 literally, in that God will assuredly bring the ungodly under His severe judgments, and they all will be destroyed (as described through metaphors). God uses metaphors to describe spiritual and physical realities in the book of Revelation.

 

[Malachi]

The entirety of Revelation is undoubtedly allegorical. It is quite pointless to take Rev. literally as that restricts and forces it's conveyances and applications to 'place and time' observations which brings an allegorical mountain of troubling conclusions that will not compute and were never meant to compute.

On what grounds do you arrive at such a conclusion? Undoubtedly there are metaphors and symbols in this prophecy, but that does not mean that the sequence of events is not literal. Just as the Second Coming of Christ will be literal, all of God's judgments (in the sequences given) will be literal judgments. By definition, this is a "revelation" of what God plans for the future and for eternity.

 

[smaller]

Revelation demands allegorical understandings. There is a very simple why.

At least 1/2 of the accounts therein deal with the final judgments of unseen entites called the DEVIL and his messengers.

 

[smaller]

On what grounds do you arrive at such a conclusion? Undoubtedly there are metaphors and symbols in this prophecy, but that does not mean that the sequence of events is not literal.

Many of the accounts in Rev. have been going on for quite a long time. I don't discount a 'final in time time line' of culminations.

Just as the Second Coming of Christ will be literal, all of God's judgments (in the sequences given) will be literal judgments. By definition, this is a "revelation" of what God plans for the future and for eternity.

That view does present some difficulties as well. The Spirit of Christ is now within all believers. When then did He leave us? Would be a common question.

Jesus has already advised us, as believers, that He Is in our midst already. I see no requirement for an external singular body to show up in order to move into Revelation understandings. After all what is Revelation but the revealing of Christ within us all who are His?

The PROMISE of Revelation is the turning of the tables in our behalves OVER the wicked who presently reign in the earth.

 

[Malachi]

Revelation demands allegorical understandings. There is a very simple why.

At least 1/2 of the accounts therein deal with the final judgments of unseen entites called the DEVIL and his messengers.

Yes, the devil and his angels are certainly unseen entities, but that does not make them "allegorical". They are very real fallen creatures who will be judged with a very real judgment appropriate for their nature,

 

[Malachi]

That view does present some difficulties as well. The Spirit of Christ is now within all believers. When then did He leave us? Would be a common question.

The Spirit of Christ is within every believer. At the same time Christ in His glorified body is presently seated at the right hand of the Father (Heb 1:3 and many other Scriptures). He will return the second time in His glorified body (Rev 19:11-21). He did not "leave" believers because as God He can be both within us and seated at the right hand of God (Mk 16:19).

 

[smaller]

Yes, the devil and his angels are certainly unseen entities, but that does not make them "allegorical". They are very real fallen creatures who will be judged with a very real judgment appropriate for their nature,

Never said they were.

What makes you thing allegorical explanations are not explanations of real matters or of real entities unseen?

 

[smaller]

The Spirit of Christ is within every believer. At the same time Christ in His glorified body is presently seated at the right hand of the Father (Heb 1:3 and many other Scriptures). He will return the second time in His glorified body (Rev 19:11-21). He did not "leave" believers because as God He can be both within us and seated at the right hand of God (Mk 16:19).

And believers likewise, of course.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[n2thelight]

Can we all agree that Rev 14 is not literal? That insisting we must take Rev 14 literally is a non-starter?

Nope we can't agree....Although it's symbolism there,it has real meaning.........Give an example of what you feel is not literal

 

[Sinthesis]

Nope we can't agree....Although it's symbolism there,it has real meaning.........Give an example of what you feel is not literal

Maybe you should define what you believe literal to mean. From my point of view literalism is lost once you've accepted symbolism, and the real meaning can only be arrived at by understanding how this symbolic language translates to our real world. For example, Rev 14:18 is not about literal grapes.

 

[reba]

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb A literal lamb? stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the again with the lamb Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon really the city in Iraq is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink a literal drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall a literal drink drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke is torment smoky of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud really a cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. a real sickle
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud cloud, again a real sickle Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. literally ?
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. so all that get reap are grapes
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Trying to picture a wine press that big
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, wow grapes that have blood even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

My point is literalism is in the eye/spirit of the reader... maybe better said literalism is to degrees..... some things are more obvious to some folks... some will say that is not what i meant... or i did not mean THAT literal.. You know what i meant... etc

 

[smaller]

Maybe you should define what you believe literal to mean. From my point of view literalism is lost once you've accepted symbolism, and the real meaning can only be arrived at by understanding how this symbolic language translates to our real world. For example, Rev 14:18 is not about literal grapes.

Good points. Symbolism is very tough theological sledding.

I might think we'd all agree that it's prophetic and therefore spoken through a prophet, in this case the writer, John, who is shown things that have been, things that are and things that are to come.

We know that God Speaks through prophets using this methodology as delineated long before John and shown throughout the O.T. prophetic writings.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Similitudes are not literal. They are symbolic. So are allegories, symbolic. So are parables, symbolic.

The questions then become twofold.

A. What methods are used to decipher similitudes? For me allegory, parable and similitude all have the same underlying dissection principle, as delivered by Jesus in Mark 4. Those who don't know what scripture I'm referencing haven't done their homework and if told, they won't understand it anyway without accepting the principles Jesus used for understanding all parables. Since the Word is spiritual it demands symbolic transfer away from the physical literal understanding only. Not saying that symbolism doesn't engage physical matters but physical understandings are also understandings locked into place and time. Word is transcendent to that restriction. When Jesus said that man shall live by every Word of God, that directs us away from a strict literal application in time/physical context only.

then

B. Using the basic structure/rules of dissections, the next level is comparative symbology within the context of the structure/rules of dissections.

It's actually very easy. So easy a child can understand.

But impossible to share with those who have no appreciation of the finer points of the genre and insist that grapes have blood for example or that that blood will coagulate when poured out of the winepress to reach a horses bridle when it's poured into a pool a thousand six hundre furlongs long or that angels sit on literal clouds with literal sickles large enough to reap the entire earth.

Please.

p.s. Jesus lost a whole bunch of literal only hearers when He said that adherents had to eat His flesh and drink His blood because they were offended over that literal thought.

 

[reba]

smaller have i ever agreed with you before?

 

[Sinthesis]

Good points. Symbolism is very tough theological sledding.

I might think we'd all agree that it's prophetic and therefore spoken through a prophet, in this case the writer, John, who is shown things that have been, things that are and things that are to come.

We know that God Speaks through prophets using this methodology as delineated long before John and shown throughout the O.T. prophetic writings.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Similitudes are not literal. They are symbolic. So are allegories, symbolic. So are parables, symbolic.

The questions then become twofold.

A. What methods are used to decipher similitudes? For me allegory, parable and similitude all have the same underlying dissection principle, as delivered by Jesus in Mark 4. Those who don't know what scripture I'm referencing haven't done their homework and if told, they won't understand it anyway without accepting the principles Jesus used for understanding all parables. Since the Word is spiritual it demands symbolic transfer away from the physical literal understanding only. Not saying that symbolism doesn't engage physical matters but physical understandings are also understandings locked into place and time. Word is transcendent to that restriction. When Jesus said that man shall live by every Word of God, that directs us away from a strict literal application in time/physical context only.

then

B. Using the basic structure/rules of dissections, the next level is comparative symbology within the context of the structure/rules of dissections.

It's actually very easy. So easy a child can understand.

But impossible to share with those who have no appreciation of the finer points of the genre and insist that grapes have blood for example or that that blood will coagulate when poured out of the winepress to reach a horses bridle when it's poured into a pool a thousand six hundre furlongs long or that angels sit on literal clouds with literal sickles large enough to reap the entire earth.

Please.

p.s. Jesus lost a whole bunch of literal only hearers when He said that adherents had to eat His flesh and drink His blood because they were offended over that literal thought.

So then you do agree with me.:woot

 

[reba]

I have done that a time or two.. on some points

 

[smaller]

So then you do agree with me.:woot

You musta missed the tough sledding part...heh heh