What exactly does Revelation 14 teach?

[Malachi]

BTW, no one ever said we would face Gods wrath if we are in Christ and He in us

So why are you still persisting that the Church is to be found in Revelation chapter 14, which is all about God's wrath?

 

[Gregg]

The reality is that there is no mention of a wheat harvest in Rev 14. Try as you might, all you will find is a grape harvest -- "the grapes of wrath".

Malachi,
Enough of you misquoting my posts. I never said the wheat harvest was in Rev 14. I was, and am, equating the wheat harvest in Matthew with the first harvest mentioned in Rev 14:15-16; which differs from a second harvest mentioned in Rev 14:17-19, and the destruction of that second harvest in Rev 14:20. Are you willfully ignoring the content of my posts?

 

[Gregg]

FOR BELIEVERS
1 Thess 5:9,10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

FOR UNBELIEVERS
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Revelation 14:9,10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So unless one can shown that there is "wheat" or "salvation" or "deliverance" or a "catching up into Heaven" or even "saints" in Revelation 14, it is impossible to associate this chapter with the Rapture. The 144,000 redeemed Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel are not the Church (which cannot be numbered by humans), and "rest from their labours" (v.13) is the opposite of "rising to meet the Lord in the air". God does not make things difficult to understand.

I agree that Christians will not be the object of God's wrath, and have never said otherwise. However, Christians will be here on earth during the tribulation period, and may witness God's wrath from a distance.

In my understanding, the Church will be raptured on the Feast of Trumpets; then 10 days later on the Day of Atonement the 7 Bowl Judgments [God's wrath] will be completed; and then five days later the LORD Jesus Christ will enter Jerusalem on the 15th Day of that same month and take His place on the Temple Mount - this to fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths in its entirety, as He began to fulfill that Feast at His First Coming.

 

[Malachi]

Malachi,
Enough of you misquoting my posts. I never said the wheat harvest was in Rev 14. I was, and am, equating the wheat harvest in Matthew with the first harvest mentioned in Rev 14:15-16; which differs from a second harvest mentioned in Rev 14:17-19, and the destruction of that second harvest in Rev 14:20. Are you willfully ignoring the content of my posts?

Gregg,

There is only one harvest in Rev 14, and that is the harvest of grapes (the vine of the earth). Since genuine believers are the "wheat" and Christians in name only are the "tares", if a harvest is mentioned in connection with the Rapture, it would have to be a "wheat harvest", not a grape harvest. You did not mention "wheat" at all but that is the only logical choice. I am certainly not misquoting you (see above where I have addressed each and every one of your Scriptures).

 

[Gregg]

I said this:

Malachi,
Enough of you misquoting my posts. I never said the wheat harvest was in Rev 14. I was, and am, equating the wheat harvest in Matthew with the first harvest mentioned in Rev 14:15-16; which differs from a second harvest mentioned in Rev 14:17-19, and the destruction of that second harvest in Rev 14:20. Are you willfully ignoring the content of my posts?

To which you replied this:

Gregg,

There is only one harvest in Rev 14, and that is the harvest of grapes (the vine of the earth). Since genuine believers are the "wheat" and Christians in name only are the "tares", if a harvest is mentioned in connection with the Rapture, it would have to be a "wheat harvest", not a grape harvest. You did not mention "wheat" at all but that is the only logical choice. I am certainly not misquoting you (see above where I have addressed each and every one of your Scriptures).

What I underlined above, I should restate to say this: I never said the word "wheat" was used in Rev 14 to refer to the Rapture. What I am saying about Rev 14 is the 1st (Rev 14:15-16) of the 2 harvests is equivalent to the wheat harvest; the 2nd harvest being described in Rev 14:17-20.

 

[jocor]

Rev 14:1-5 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

These verses pertain to the first group of 144,000 firstfruits of the wheat harvest, the resurrection of the saints. They were resurrected when the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 sounded. They are one of the wave loaves offered on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in Lev 23. They are in heaven at this time.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
​

These verses pertain to the resurrection of the second group of 144,000 saints. They are the second wave loaf of Lev 23. They are not grapes, but wheat.

These total 288,000 firstfruits unto Yahweh and the Lamb are the anti-type of 1 Chr.27:1-15 which shows King David's 288,000 right hand men that served him throughout the year in his KIngdom. King Yeshua will also have 288,000 men that serve him in the anti-typical Kingdom.

​

 

[Gregg]

Rev 14:1-5 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

These verses pertain to the first group of 144,000 firstfruits of the wheat harvest, the resurrection of the saints. They were resurrected when the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 sounded. They are one of the wave loaves offered on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in Lev 23. They are in heaven at this time.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
​

These verses pertain to the resurrection of the second group of 144,000 saints. They are the second wave loaf of Lev 23. They are not grapes, but wheat.

These total 288,000 firstfruits unto Yahweh and the Lamb are the anti-type of 1 Chr.27:1-15 which shows King David's 288,000 right hand men that served him throughout the year in his KIngdom. King Yeshua will also have 288,000 men that serve him in the anti-typical Kingdom.

​

In your understanding, has this - "They were resurrected when the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 sounded" - already occurred, or is yet to occur in the future?

 

[Malachi]

I said this:

Malachi,
Enough of you misquoting my posts. I never said the wheat harvest was in Rev 14. I was, and am, equating the wheat harvest in Matthew with the first harvest mentioned in Rev 14:15-16; which differs from a second harvest mentioned in Rev 14:17-19, and the destruction of that second harvest in Rev 14:20. Are you willfully ignoring the content of my posts?
To which you replied this:
What I underlined above, I should restate to say this: I never said the word "wheat" was used in Rev 14 to refer to the Rapture. What I am saying about Rev 14 is the 1st (Rev 14:15-16) of the 2 harvests is equivalent to the wheat harvest; the 2nd harvest being described in Rev 14:17-20.

No, I am not wilfully ignoring or misquoting your posts. Let's leave aside the term "wheat harvest" for the moment altogether.

What I am pointing out is that there is absolutely no way that any part of Rev 14:14-20 can be interpreted as a disclosure of two harvests. The "harvest of the earth" in verse 15 is identical to the "vine of the earth" in verses 18 and 19, and the whole passage speaks about the wrath of God. This is what I have been trying to bring across, and all the speculation and conjecture cannot change what is plainly revealed right there. The phrase "of the earth" in itself is a pointer. There is no mention of Heaven here.

 

[Malachi]

These verses pertain to the resurrection of the second group of 144,000 saints. They are the second wave loaf of Lev 23. They are not grapes, but wheat.

jocor,
Please refer to my post #28 above. One would have to seriously misinterpret Rev 14:14-20 to find any kinds of saints in that harvest, whether redeemed Jews or the Church. If "they are not grapes but wheat", then that would have been clearly stated.

The fact that "the vine of the earth" and the "winepress of God's wrath" are so prominent is in itself sufficient evidence that this passage speaks of nothing other that God's judgments, poured out in His wrath on the unbelieving and disobedient inhabitants of the earth.

 

[Gregg]

No, I am not wilfully ignoring or misquoting your posts. Let's leave aside the term "wheat harvest" for the moment altogether.

What I am pointing out is that there is absolutely no way that any part of Rev 14:14-20 can be interpreted as a disclosure of two harvests.

I do understand what you are postulating, but not why; because . . .

The "harvest of the earth" in verse 15 is identical to the "vine of the earth" in verses 18 and 19, and the whole passage speaks about the wrath of God. This is what I have been trying to bring across, and all the speculation and conjecture cannot change what is plainly revealed right there.

. . . they are not identical. Here is how they are different:

- one harvest is by Jesus, the Son of Man, in whose hand is a sickle (Rev 14:14-15) swung over [Gk. επι] the earth (Rev 14:16).
vs
- another harvest is by an angel also having a sharp sickle (Rev 14:17) swing into [Gk. εις] the earth (Rev 14:19).

If you can reconcile these two differing means, manners, and modes into one identical harvest, then please put it forward; otherwise, the description above stands to differentiate two harvests.

The phrase "of the earth" in itself is a pointer.

The phrase "of the earth" is a pointer indeed, and points to additional differences between the 2 harvests

the first in Rev 14:15 "the harvest of the earth was dried."

this one is a harvest [the only use of this word in the Rev.], the other is not labeled a harvest
this one was dried, suggesting wheat​

vs

the second in Rev 14:18 "the clusters of the vine of the earth"

this one is a cluster of ripe grapes on a vine, where the other is dried such as wheat kernels
this one is not dried - not dried grapes, can't tread raisins in a wine press
​

There is no mention of Heaven here.

There is mention of the heaven directly above the earth - the sky:

- an angel flying in mid-heaven, the sky (Rev 14:6)
- in which the Son of Man sits on a white cloud (Rev 14:14)
- to which an angel from the temple comes (Rev 14:15)
- in which a sickle is swung over the earth [the sky, where the saints are Raptured to meet Jesus in the air] Rev 14:16
​

And, there are several mentions of the highest heaven, but I will not list those here; except for one.

​

- - -

"And I heard a voice out of Heaven saying to me, Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Lord from now. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow with them." (Rev 14:13 LITV)

Evidently, some people die in the LORD from Rev 14:13 forward; whereafter is the Son of Man is described (Rev 14:14) who has His harvest (Rev 14:15-16) of those dying in Him.

 

[Donovb]

Anti-Christ cannot reveal himself and the 7 year tribulation cannot begin into the bride of Christ is removed. 2Nd Thessalonians 2:3-Let no man deceive you by any means for that come the fallen away(departure). Than Israel will sign a 7 year peace agreement with the Anti-Christ(7 year tribulation). I think the rapture will come at sudden destruction. 1St Thessalonians 5:3-while they are saying peace and security, sudden destruction upon THEM as a woman in labor and THEY will not escape, this is pretty much saying WE will escape. They will not escape, WE will, on them, not US. Sorry this was typed on my phone, might be a few grammatical errors. So ya pre-trib for this guy. God Bless

 

[jocor]

In your understanding, has this - "They were resurrected when the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 sounded" - already occurred, or is yet to occur in the future?

It is yet future. None of the trumpets have sounded yet. When the 7th seal is opened, the Day of Yahweh begins. The first judgment in that day will be the first trumpet.

 

[jocor]

jocor,
Please refer to my post #28 above. One would have to seriously misinterpret Rev 14:14-20 to find any kinds of saints in that harvest, whether redeemed Jews or the Church. If "they are not grapes but wheat", then that would have been clearly stated.

The fact that "the vine of the earth" and the "winepress of God's wrath" are so prominent is in itself sufficient evidence that this passage speaks of nothing other that God's judgments, poured out in His wrath on the unbelieving and disobedient inhabitants of the earth.

Rev 14:14-16 is a different harvest than the one in Rev 14:17-20. The first is done by one like unto "Son of man". Verse 16 says, "and the earth was reaped". After that we see a different angel reap the grape harvest AFTER the earth was already reaped. So if the second angel was reaping the grapes in 17-20, then what was the first reaper reaping? It cannot be grapes because that harvest did not start until vs.19. The first reaper reaped grain (wheat). The text need not say it was wheat. The second reaper reaped grapes. The grapes are the recipients of Yahweh's wrath.

 

[Donovb]

If the believers are going to be called up at post trib, than who is going to be here in their mortal bodies in the millenium? Somebody has to be, makes no sense to have a post trib. Theres not going to be anybody mortal in the millenium.

 

[jocor]

If the believers are going to be called up at post trib, than who is going to be here in their mortal bodies in the millenium? Somebody has to be, makes no sense to have a post trib. Theres not going to be anybody mortal in the millenium.

The unbelieving nations will remain during the millennium. They will be ruled over by Yeshua and the resurrected believers.

 

[Donovb]

I do not agree with you jocor. Jesus is not going to give second chances and allow the non believers to live in the millenium.

 

[jocor]

I do not agree with you jocor. Jesus is not going to give second chances and allow the non believers to live in the millenium.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
​

Who are these nations that are alive during the millennium? Believers or unbelievers?

 

[Donovb]

I don't think it's nations its different types of people.

 

[Malachi]

One of the fundamental principles of Bible interpretation is exegesis -- drawing out of the Scripture what is there, not reading into Scripture what is not there. What some seem to be doing is reading into Scripture what is not there. So let's once again examine each verse using the King James Bible based on the Majority Greek Text (which is the true text):

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
This verse tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ ("like unto the Son of Man" as in Rev 1:13) is sitting on a white cloud, crowned with a golden crown, and holding a sharp sickle. We know that all judgment belongs to Christ therefore He is the Lord of the harvest below. That's all this verse is telling us in the context of the passage. Context is key and if we abandon that principle, there is no "rightly dividing the word of Truth".

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
This angel announces "the harvest of the earth" (not "the harvest of heaven"). The Greek word translated as "ripe" is xeraino can mean dried or mature (ripe). Whichever way it is taken, this is metaphorically "the harvest of the earth", which will be further clarified in the next few verses. There is no hint whatsoever that this is speaking of saints, because the saints are not "of the earth". Scripture says that we are already seated with Christ in heaven (Eph 2:6). And we will not be of the earth at the Rapture because we will be glorified, incorruptible, immortal (1 Cor 15:51-53). Thus the emphasis on "the earth" is already separating sinners from saints.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This is Christ wielding His judgments "on the earth' and "the earth" was reaped. It is spiritually significant that we now have the word "earth" repeated three times in these three verses to focus our attention on the ungodly inhabitants of the earth which will be severely judged. When Christ wields His sickle, it is a signal to the angel with the sickle (v 17) to proceed with the harvest. Both actions pertain to the same harvest of unrighteousness and ungodliness.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
The first angel was there to make a proclamation ("cried with a loud voice") whereas this angel is there to execute judgment on behalf of the Lord in Heaven ("having a sharp sickle")

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
The first angel addressed the Son of Man. This angel addresses the angel with the sickle. And now we know exactly what this harvest it. It is THE GRAPES which are clusters OF THE VINE OF THE EARTH. Again we have a reference to "the earth" and we will now see that this picture is a metaphor for the sinners on earth which are about to be detroyed. God has been longsuffering with sinners for a long time, but now the harvest is ripe. This harvest is identical with what is mentioned in verses 15 and 16. The "grapes" are the wicked, and they will be crushed in the winepress of God's wrath.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Now we see the judgment being executed by the angel with the sickle, where these "grapes" (sinners) enter into "the winepress" (judgments) of the wrath of God. Once again "the earth" and "the vine of the earth" are emphasized, because God is judging the inhabitants of the earth. Winepress stands for severe judgments which display the wrath of God. There is not even the remotest hint that any of this pertains to the saints of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
This verse tells us that God with bring a righteous "bloodbath" on the inhabitants of the earth at this time. The volume of this blood will be so great and so extensive, that it will rise to the height of horses bridles (at least 5 feet from ground level). Since a Bible furlong is about 600 feet, we have about 200 miles of blood because of this "bloodbath". We cannot truly visualize this.

Given the plain literal interpretation of this passage, and knowing that the "harvest" is a metaphor for the destruction of the wicked, we have no business introducing the "harvest" of the saints into this, and muddying the waters.

 

[Gregg]

One of the fundamental principles of Bible interpretation is exegesis -- drawing out of the Scripture what is there, not reading into Scripture what is not there. What some seem to be doing is reading into Scripture what is not there. So let's once again examine each verse using the King James Bible based on the Majority Greek Text (which is the true text):

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
This verse tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ ("like unto the Son of Man" as in Rev 1:13) is sitting on a white cloud, crowned with a golden crown, and holding a sharp sickle. We know that all judgment belongs to Christ therefore He is the Lord of the harvest below. That's all this verse is telling us in the context of the passage. Context is key and if we abandon that principle, there is no "rightly dividing the word of Truth".

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
This angel announces "the harvest of the earth" (not "the harvest of heaven"). The Greek word translated as "ripe" is xeraino can mean dried or mature (ripe). Whichever way it is taken, this is metaphorically "the harvest of the earth", which will be further clarified in the next few verses. There is no hint whatsoever that this is speaking of saints, because the saints are not "of the earth". Scripture says that we are already seated with Christ in heaven (Eph 2:6). And we will not be of the earth at the Rapture because we will be glorified, incorruptible, immortal (1 Cor 15:51-53). Thus the emphasis on "the earth" is already separating sinners from saints.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This is Christ wielding His judgments "on the earth' and "the earth" was reaped. It is spiritually significant that we now have the word "earth" repeated three times in these three verses to focus our attention on the ungodly inhabitants of the earth which will be severely judged. When Christ wields His sickle, it is a signal to the angel with the sickle (v 17) to proceed with the harvest. Both actions pertain to the same harvest of unrighteousness and ungodliness.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
The first angel was there to make a proclamation ("cried with a loud voice") whereas this angel is there to execute judgment on behalf of the Lord in Heaven ("having a sharp sickle")

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
The first angel addressed the Son of Man. This angel addresses the angel with the sickle. And now we know exactly what this harvest it. It is THE GRAPES which are clusters OF THE VINE OF THE EARTH. Again we have a reference to "the earth" and we will now see that this picture is a metaphor for the sinners on earth which are about to be detroyed. God has been longsuffering with sinners for a long time, but now the harvest is ripe. This harvest is identical with what is mentioned in verses 15 and 16. The "grapes" are the wicked, and they will be crushed in the winepress of God's wrath.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Now we see the judgment being executed by the angel with the sickle, where these "grapes" (sinners) enter into "the winepress" (judgments) of the wrath of God. Once again "the earth" and "the vine of the earth" are emphasized, because God is judging the inhabitants of the earth. Winepress stands for severe judgments which display the wrath of God. There is not even the remotest hint that any of this pertains to the saints of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
This verse tells us that God with bring a righteous "bloodbath" on the inhabitants of the earth at this time. The volume of this blood will be so great and so extensive, that it will rise to the height of horses bridles (at least 5 feet from ground level). Since a Bible furlong is about 600 feet, we have about 200 miles of blood because of this "bloodbath". We cannot truly visualize this.

Given the plain literal interpretation of this passage, and knowing that the "harvest" is a metaphor for the destruction of the wicked, we have no business introducing the "harvest" of the saints into this, and muddying the waters.

I agree with part of what you said: 'One of the fundamental principles of Bible interpretation is exegesis'