• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

What Happens When You Die...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Vanguard
  • Start date Start date
V

Vanguard

Guest
This question was brought up in another thread, after we were discussing the various views about hell, and what verse may or may not refer to it. Since this is a HUGE topic for discussion, I wanted to make an independent thread on it.


"What happens when you die?" is probably the single most asked question anywhere in the world. Different cultural and religious beliefs will have different answers. The following is a list of the most popular ones:

1. You go to Heaven or Hell.
2. You go to Purgatory.
3. You are reincarnated.
4. You go to a higher plane of existence.
5. You go to "paradise" (multi-cultural synopsis).
6. You die and stay dead until the Rapture or Resurrections.
7. You become a ghost and exist in an ethereal state.
8. You die and cease to exist forever.

The thing is, none of the world's major religions agree on the exact details about the moment of death! Why? Because no one really knows what happens during that moment. After you die, you can't come back and write an essay on it. As dark and bleak as it seems, there is some re-assuring evidence beyond death based off science! Energy can't be destroyed, and your body is full of energy. Where does it go?

For Christians, we like to believe in #1. "...to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." You die, and based on your salvation (or lack of) you go to Heaven or Hell. However, some modern Christian scholars are now questioning this age old premise, after doing in-depth textual criticisms of the English translation(s) of the Bible, and comparing it to what is actually said in the Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek.

By the same token, certain Christian denominations do not believe in an immediate Heaven or Hell destination. Roman Catholics (and others) believe a soul must be purified before entering Heaven, and thus goes to Purgatory, where it is cleansed by fire (but only if you died in a state of grace...otherwise you're hellbound). That's the short version.

Others still believe that, according to the Bible, when you die you simply go to the grave [sheol]. You're dead, no consciousness, no awareness. You stay that way until the Rapture or Resurrections that the Book of Revelation speaks of. This belief also coincides with the Jewish interpretation of Classical Hebrew (although there are some dissenters who say the OT speaks of reincarnation). The interesting thing here is that death will only last a fraction of a second from your perspective. You die, you have no awareness of time or events, and then BAM, you are raised (even if you are dead for millions of years)!

Atheists will tell you that #8 is what happens. You die and cease to exist forever. They say that the idea of an afterlife was created to help take the sting out of death, full of reunions, paradise, peace, etc., especially if you lose a loved one. It is very hard to deal with the loss of a child, and to think that they are gone forever after such a short life? Their view is a harsh reality.

No one truly knows what happens. No one can give you a definitive answer. But here's the kicker...

IF a non-Christian event occurs and you die as a true Christian, well you lived a good life, you were hopefully compassionate, giving, and tried to do what is right. Maybe you left behind a legacy for others to follow or to be encouraged by. You will be remembered.

IF a Christian event occurs, you go to Heaven [paradise] and all that comes with it.

Either way is a win-win!

IF a Christian event occurs and you are not saved...


Edit: I am aware that the last statement is the typical control mechanism that hell, fire and brimstone sermons are about. However, I was a Boy Scout, so "be prepared!" Or, if you like, "it is better to err on the side of caution."

Edit 2: corrected an oversight on the "...to be absent" reference to 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NASB).

Postscript: an after thought...religions/priests throughout time have held a lot of power and influence for this very reason. People do not want death to be the end of their existence. They fear the unknown and what's on the other side. Priests can help placate that fear...for a price.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jesus told the guy on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise, "This day.".

Now, did He mean "you will be with me this day" or "I tell you on this day, you will be there with me (eventually)"?

It is hard to know.

But Paul believed that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Paul seemed to get most everything right, do we agree?
Ok, then why not this?
 
This question was brought up in another thread, after we were discussing the various views about hell, and what verse may or may not refer to it. Since this is a HUGE topic for discussion, I wanted to make an independent thread on it.


"What happens when you die?" is probably the single most asked question anywhere in the world. Different cultural and religious beliefs will have different answers. The following is a list of the most popular ones:

1. You go to Heaven or Hell.
2. You go to Purgatory.
3. You are reincarnated.
4. You go to a higher plane of existence.
5. You go to "paradise" (multi-cultural synopsis).
6. You die and stay dead until the Rapture or Resurrections.
7. You become a ghost and exist in an ethereal state.
8. You die and cease to exist forever.

The thing is, none of the world's major religions agree on the exact details about the moment of death! Why? Because no one really knows what happens during that moment. After you die, you can't come back and write an essay on it. As dark and bleak as it seems, there is some re-assuring evidence beyond death based off science! Energy can't be destroyed, and your body is full of energy. Where does it go?

For Christians, we like to believe in #1. "To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord." You die, and based on your salvation (or lack of) you go to Heaven or Hell. However, some modern Christian scholars are now questioning this age old premise, after doing in-depth textual criticisms of the English translation(s) of the Bible, and comparing it to what is actually said in the Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek.

By the same token, certain Christian denominations do not believe in an immediate Heaven or Hell destination. Roman Catholics (and others) believe a soul must be purified before entering Heaven, and thus goes to Purgatory, where it is cleansed by fire (but only if you died in a state of grace...otherwise you're hellbound). That's the short version.

Others still believe that, according to the Bible, when you die you simply go to the grave [sheol]. You're dead, no consciousness, no awareness. You stay that way until the Rapture or Resurrections that the Book of Revelation speaks of. This belief also coincides with the Jewish interpretation of Classical Hebrew (although there are some dissenters who say the OT speaks of reincarnation). The interesting thing here is that death will only last a fraction of a second from your perspective. You die, you have no awareness of time or events, and then BAM, you are raised (even if you are dead for millions of years)!

Atheists will tell you that #8 is what happens. You die and cease to exist forever. They say that the idea of an afterlife was created to help take the sting out of death, full of reunions, paradise, peace, etc., especially if you lose a loved one. It is very hard to deal with the loss of a child, and to think that they are gone forever after such a short life? Their view is a harsh reality.

No one truly knows what happens. No one can give you a definitive answer. But here's the kicker...

IF a non-Christian event occurs and you die as a true Christian, well you lived a good life, you were hopefully compassionate, giving, and tried to do what is right. Maybe you left behind a legacy for others to follow or to be encouraged by. You will be remembered.

IF a Christian event occurs, you go to Heaven [paradise] and all that comes with it.

Either way is a win-win!

IF a Christian event occurs and you are not saved...


Edit: I am aware that the last statement is the typical control mechanism that hell, fire and brimstone sermons are about. However, I was a Boy Scout, so "be prepared!" Or, if you like, "it is better to err on the side of caution."


It seems according to the Scriptures that when one dies they return to dust to await the resurrection, so #6 seems to be the one.
 
Jesus told the guy on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise, "This day.".

Now, did He mean "you will be with me this day" or "I tell you on this day, you will be there with me (eventually)"?

It is hard to know.

But Paul believed that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Paul seemed to get most everything right, do we agree?
Ok, then why not this?

Actually, Paul didn't say "is" he said "and." I am will rather to be absent from the body "and" present with the Lord, that makes a big difference. Regarding what Jesus said to the thief, it would have to be that Jesus meant I'm telling you today, that you will be with me in paradise. The other interpretation would contradict everything the OT teaches on the subject of the soul.
 
Pizzaguy and Butch5: classic example of differing views within the same religion, and both are contained biblically (but are they contextual?!).

Even through all my studies I am still on the fence about this. I am leaning toward the idea that #6 is the original Hebrew/early Christian concept, and that #1 is an exaggerated form of it, but it has been blown out of proportion by fiction, radical beliefs and oral tradition.
 
Pizzaguy and Butch5: classic example of differing views within the same religion, and both are contained biblically (but are they contextual?!).

Even through all my studies I am still on the fence about this. I am leaning toward the idea that #6 is the original Hebrew/early Christian concept, and that #1 is an exaggerated form of it, but it has been blown out of proportion by fiction, radical beliefs and oral tradition.

Hi Vanguard,

I am current and have been involved in an ongoing study of this issue beginning with Genesis. Here is a link to the study if you are interested. There so far there are 18 audio discussions and there is also an interactive forum. The audios are in the The Bereans Discussion Group section
 
You provoke some deep thought with this topic, Vanguard.

Your OP reminded me how many of us Christians swear up and down that there is a 100% chance of there being both a Heaven, where you live in eternal bliss and God never makes your soul endure another existence where you will have questions ever again, and a Hell, where you truly feel the hot flames forever and ever, but these "100% certain" Christians behave as if our real circumstance is far from this.

But, I guess that could be a whole new thread.
 
Even through all my studies I am still on the fence about this.
I believe God meant for His Word to read 'on the fence'
 
@Butch5 I am familiar with the Bereans Program from the Assembly of God church. If that is not the same thing, my apologies. I may take a look at it.

You provoke some deep thought with this topic, Vanguard.

Thus the theme to most of my posts. I like for people to try and think objectively, and understand the Bible on a much deeper level. There is so much more to religion than what is on the surface.

Edit: also, if you'll notice, I usually don't come out and accuse people of anything. I introduce a topic, talk about it from both a biblical and historical standpoint, and try to keep everything within context and on topic. I have strayed here and there, but I usually reel myself back in. I have been accused (both here and abroad) of being blasphemous and a heretic, but such as it is when you say things people don't want to hear because it goes against their beliefs (right or wrong).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
@Butch5 I am familiar with the Bereans Program from the Assembly of God church. If that is not the same thing, my apologies. I may take a look at it.



Thus the theme to most of my posts. I like for people to try and think objectively, and understand the Bible on a much deeper level. There is so much more to religion than what is on the surface.

Edit: also, if you'll notice, I usually don't come out and accuse people of anything. I introduce a topic, talk about it from both a biblical and historical standpoint, and try to keep everything within context and on topic. I have strayed here and there, but I usually reel myself back in. I have been accused (both here and abroad) of being blasphemous and a heretic, but such as it is when you say things people don't want to hear because it goes against their beliefs (right or wrong).


Hi Vanguard,

It has nothing to do with the Assemblies of God church. It has nothing to do with anything denominational. It is a pastor in Florida who is researching this issue and discussing it through a class and online. As I said, there is an interactive forum also. What he's done is start in Genesis looking at the words soul and spirit, and seeing how Scripture defines and uses these words. He's making great efforts not to bring any presuppositions to the text but rather let the Bible itself explain what it means. It is very good.
 
The idea of Purgetory is a Jewish idea that came from Gehenna and is supported in teh below link. That being said, I believe Peter has this thought in mind when he writes. (NASB) 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the [n]spirit; 19 in [o]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.

Vanguard, I suspect you will enjoy the below link...

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380844/jewish/Straight-Path-to-Heaven-123.htm

This side of the cross, I would say that if you have been baptized into Christ, you are now living the resurrected life. Thus, to die is to be present with the Lord.
 
I believe God meant for His Word to read 'on the fence'

Jesus told us exactly how it works, so we need not guess:

  • Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is GIVEN UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them IT IS NOT GIVEN.
    Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus said: "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

You are either GIVEN eyes to see by God, or you are NOT GIVEN eyes to see - there is no 'in-between' (fence). No amount of studying or formal college degrees can give one eyes to see, only God can GIVE that to someone.



Faith does not come by physically hearing, or physically seeing (studying, reading). Faith comes when we are GIVEN ears to hear with spiritual ears, and GIVEN eyes to see with spiritual eyes. That is how the Holy Spirit teaches:

  • 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely GIVEN TO US of God.
    1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Christ's words "are spirit," and "the Holy Spirit teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual," and "the natural man receives not the things of the spirit... for they are foolishness to him and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned."

  • John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life."
 
#6 You die and are dead until the resurrection (whichever resurrection you are part of, there are three).
 
Actually, Paul didn't say "is" he said "and." I am will rather to be absent from the body "and" present with the Lord, that makes a big difference. Regarding what Jesus said to the thief, it would have to be that Jesus meant I'm telling you today, that you will be with me in paradise. The other interpretation would contradict everything the OT teaches on the subject of the soul.

It would also contradict NT teaching...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Otherwise the thief went to paradise that day, and Chist didn't make it until three days later...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
#6 You die and are dead (ASLEEP) until the resurrection.
 
Actually, Paul didn't say "is" he said "and." I am will rather to be absent from the body "and" present with the Lord, that makes a big difference. Regarding what Jesus said to the thief, it would have to be that Jesus meant I'm telling you today, that you will be with me in paradise. The other interpretation would contradict everything the OT teaches on the subject of the soul.


Exactly right. Excellent point.

There is a 180 degree difference between Paul saying that he is "WILLING TO BE absent from the body AND ... present with the Lord," as opposed to making a statement that flatly states that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord."

Paul tells us specifically that if there is no resurrection from the dead then the dead in Christ are perished:

1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
1 Corinthians 15:18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."



Paul clearly understood that the dead are not conscious of the passing of time.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing"
 
Exactly right. Excellent point.

There is a 180 degree difference between Paul saying that he is "WILLING TO BE absent from the body AND ... present with the Lord," as opposed to making a statement that flatly states that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord."

Paul tells us specifically that if there is no resurrection from the dead then the dead in Christ are perished:

1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
1 Corinthians 15:18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."



Paul clearly understood that the dead are not conscious of the passing of time.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing"

I agree, I've noticed that that passage gets misquoted a lot.
 
It would also contradict NT teaching...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Otherwise the thief went to paradise that day, and Chist didn't make it until three days later...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I agree John 8:32. There are however, some who believe that paradise is in Hades. This is what I used to believe, that Hades had two parts, Abraham's bosom or Paradise and the place of torment. However, after an in depth study of this issue I came to realize that this completely contradicted the OT teaching on the creation and death of man.
 
The idea of Purgetory is a Jewish idea that came from Gehenna and is supported in teh below link. That being said, I believe Peter has this thought in mind when he writes. (NASB) 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the [n]spirit; 19 in [o]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.

Vanguard, I suspect you will enjoy the below link...

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380844/jewish/Straight-Path-to-Heaven-123.htm

This side of the cross, I would say that if you have been baptized into Christ, you are now living the resurrected life. Thus, to die is to be present with the Lord.

I used to think that verse from 1 Peter taught conscious spirits after death also. However, I have found that it can easily be understood apart from the conscious spirit idea.
 
I used to think that verse from 1 Peter taught conscious spirits after death also. However, I have found that it can easily be understood apart from the conscious spirit idea.

The link I provided gives us a Jewish understanding of death. Also, the parable of Lazurus in Abraham's bosom is derived from Jewish thought. Why would Jesus make up a parable where the deceased are "sleeping" and not concience if it wasn't a jewish idea that the jewish thought couldn't relate to?
 
Back
Top