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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Did Adam have Faith before the Fall or His Sin ?
Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ! Heb 11:1,6
We find in vs 6 an statement that gives us to conclude that Faith Pleases God
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Now Adam at his Creation, when God pronounced him good, even very good, and even though God made him in the Image of God, yet it still remains that Adam was Created a Natural Man 1 Cor 15:45-48
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
Now the word natural in vs 46 said of Adam is the greek word psychikos and means :
of or belonging to breath
a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
b) governed by breath
1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion
The same word is found in 1 Cor 2:14
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Adam, in his unfallen but natural state could not receive the things of the Spirit of God
In other words in his natural state he would not be able to receive the Gospel of God from Faith to Faith Rom 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In his natural unfallen condition Adam was not yet fit to receive the Gospel of Salvation by Faith..
Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ! Heb 11:1,6
We find in vs 6 an statement that gives us to conclude that Faith Pleases God
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Now Adam at his Creation, when God pronounced him good, even very good, and even though God made him in the Image of God, yet it still remains that Adam was Created a Natural Man 1 Cor 15:45-48
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
Now the word natural in vs 46 said of Adam is the greek word psychikos and means :
of or belonging to breath
a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
b) governed by breath
1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion
The same word is found in 1 Cor 2:14
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Adam, in his unfallen but natural state could not receive the things of the Spirit of God
In other words in his natural state he would not be able to receive the Gospel of God from Faith to Faith Rom 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In his natural unfallen condition Adam was not yet fit to receive the Gospel of Salvation by Faith..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
As Adam, man in his natural state does not know of their need of The Saviour. He does not have Faith which pleases God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This has always been True even at the beginning of the Creation, God has not Changed, neither did He change after Adam sinned..
But as a Natural Man in His innocence Adam was not able to please God,and his transgression proved it !
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This has always been True even at the beginning of the Creation, God has not Changed, neither did He change after Adam sinned..
But as a Natural Man in His innocence Adam was not able to please God,and his transgression proved it !
SBG, this is well said praise be to God. Adam was ignorant of what state of holiness he was created, and his innocence was also ignorance, and Satan exploited that innocence.As Adam, man in his natural state does not know of their need of The Saviour. He does not have Faith which pleases God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This has always been True even at the beginning of the Creation, God has not Changed, neither did He change after Adam sinned..
But as a Natural Man in His innocence Adam was not able to please God,and his transgression proved it !
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
child
Adam was not created in a state of Holiness, that comes after new birth !
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Adam was ignorant of what state of holiness he was created,
Adam was not created in a state of Holiness, that comes after new birth !
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
When I say innocence, I am saying it is a state of holiness albeit corrutible. For to say God made man in a state of unholiness does not compute. I am not saying Adam himself is Holy as I think God alone is Holy. But our image of God is what makes us in a state of holiness. As Adam began in trust of God this would make him in a state of holiness as long as he held that image of God as trustworthy. The fall of man is about losing this imagery of a Holy and ever trustworthy God. What I am saying is this:child
Adam was not created in a state of Holiness, that comes after new birth !
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans 1:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
When I say innocence, I am saying it is a state of holiness albeit corrutible. For to say God made man in a state of unholiness does not compute. I am not saying Adam himself is Holy as I think God alone is Holy. But our image of God is what makes us in a state of holiness. As Adam began in trust of God this would make him in a state of holiness as long as he held that image of God as trustworthy. The fall of man is about losing this imagery of a Holy and ever trustworthy God. What I am saying is this:
Romans 1:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Adam was not made Holy ! Why do you think Paul writes in Eph 4
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yes, Adam was created innocent and upright, but not Holy !
Also, Adam being made in the Image of God did not make him Holy. Adam was made corruptible.
God's True Image is uncorruptible ! Rom 1:23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Yes, I think I said all this already, but there's nothing wrong with making sure, and I thank you for the concern. To be clear, we are revealed what true holiness is through the revelation of the Christ. So it is I said our Image of God is what makes us in a state of holiness and that Image must be the Christ presented in a fallen state. If we are to be reconciled, we first had to fall from a prior state wherein there was no conflict in our relationship with God.Adam was not made Holy ! Why do you think Paul writes in Eph 4
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yes, Adam was created innocent and upright, but not Holy !
Also, Adam being made in the Image of God did not make him Holy. Adam was made corruptible.
God's True Image is uncorruptible ! Rom 1:23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Folks supposing Adam had not sin, never transgressed, his obedience still would not have been acceptable to God, because it could not have been done out of Gratitude for the the Work and Righteousness of Christ. Thanksgiving and other sacrifices to God are only acceptable through Jesus Christ, that is with an eye to His Redemptive obedience and sacrifice on ones behalf.
1 Pet 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rom 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 6:11
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When Adam was first created, he was not alive to God through Jesus Christ ! Later he was !
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 16:27
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
When Adam was created and not yet having sinned, he had no Ideal of Christ Righteousness imputed on the basis of the Lamb Slain from the foundation Rev 13:8;17:8; However I do believe Adam knew that the Son of God existed in the Godhead, just not redemptively. It was God's Purpose to teach Adam about Christ after his sin.
1 Pet 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rom 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 6:11
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When Adam was first created, he was not alive to God through Jesus Christ ! Later he was !
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 16:27
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
When Adam was created and not yet having sinned, he had no Ideal of Christ Righteousness imputed on the basis of the Lamb Slain from the foundation Rev 13:8;17:8; However I do believe Adam knew that the Son of God existed in the Godhead, just not redemptively. It was God's Purpose to teach Adam about Christ after his sin.
Folks supposing Adam had not sin, never transgressed, his obedience still would not have been acceptable to God, because it could not have been done out of Gratitude for the the Work and Righteousness of Christ. Thanksgiving and other sacrifices to God are only acceptable through Jesus Christ, that is with an eye to His Redemptive obedience and sacrifice on ones behalf.
1 Pet 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rom 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 6:11
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When Adam was first created, he was not alive to God through Jesus Christ ! Later he was !
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 16:27
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
When Adam was created and not yet having sinned, he had no Ideal of Christ Righteousness imputed on the basis of the Lamb Slain from the foundation Rev 13:8;17:8; However I do believe Adam knew that the Son of God existed in the Godhead, just not redemptively. It was God's Purpose to teach Adam about Christ after his sin.
I see what you're saying and I agree. Perhaps I should have not said Adam was in a state of Holiness, but rather a purity of innocence. Hence he would not know what Holiness is, or as you say, "having an eye to His redemptive obedience and sacrifice on ones behalf".
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
child
Adam was created innocent of transgression, but he was sinful at his creation, that is why he sinned or transgressed.
but rather a purity of innocence.
Adam was created innocent of transgression, but he was sinful at his creation, that is why he sinned or transgressed.
child
Adam was created innocent of transgression, but he was sinful at his creation, that is why he sinned or transgressed.
I guess we have a disconnect here. What is it you define sinful as? I regard sin as a seperation from God as in a direction or path away from the True Character of God. All was built upon faith. Therefore Adam being made sinful does not compute.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
child
Anything less than perfect as Jesus Christ is and was while He was on Earth.
What is it you define sinful as?
Anything less than perfect as Jesus Christ is and was while He was on Earth.
child
Anything less than perfect as Jesus Christ is and was while He was on Earth.
So what if one is perfect but is pressured to doubt one's self? Christ became sin so we could become the righteousness of God. This reveals a paradox that is settled at the cross of Christ. Christ is the justification for Adam being Adam.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
child
Thats a different subject. stick with the subject ! You aske me a question just a moment ago about something else, now you going a whole different route.
I know that, we were talking about Adam being made innocent but he was made sinful in the beginning !
When Adam was created, he was a sinner in need of Christ and His Righteousness !
After he sinned it was later revealed to him that the saviour woulf come from his seed according to the flesh..Gen 3:15
So what if one is perfect but is pressured to doubt one's self?
Thats a different subject. stick with the subject ! You aske me a question just a moment ago about something else, now you going a whole different route.
Christ became sin so we could become the righteousness of God.
I know that, we were talking about Adam being made innocent but he was made sinful in the beginning !
Christ is the justification for Adam being Adam.
When Adam was created, he was a sinner in need of Christ and His Righteousness !
After he sinned it was later revealed to him that the saviour woulf come from his seed according to the flesh..Gen 3:15
=savedbygrace57;591993]child
Thats a different subject. stick with the subject ! You aske me a question just a moment ago about something else, now you going a whole different route.
I know that, we were talking about Adam being made innocent but he was made sinful in the beginning !
I can see we are going to end up arguing semantics. You do not understand my points. Innocence is not defined as sinful. How is it reasonable that Innocence, not knowing the redemptive qualities of the Christ is regarded as sinful? Corruptible yes, but already corrupted? Honestly SBG, sometimes I think you've lost all concept of being in time.When Adam was created, he was a sinner in need of Christ and His Righteousness !
After he sinned it was later revealed to him that the saviour woulf come from his seed according to the flesh..Gen 3:15
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savedbygrace57
Guest
child
It does not matter, a person can be innocent of a transgression and still be sinful..
Ps 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Now if God grants david this request, and david is innocent of the Great transgression, does that mean david would no longer be sinful because innocent of an transgression ? Heavens NO..
Innocence is not defined as sinful
It does not matter, a person can be innocent of a transgression and still be sinful..
Ps 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Now if God grants david this request, and david is innocent of the Great transgression, does that mean david would no longer be sinful because innocent of an transgression ? Heavens NO..
David was not innocent to begin with. He had the knowledge of good and evil.child
It does not matter, a person can be innocent of a transgression and still be sinful..
Ps 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Now if God grants david this request, and david is innocent of the Great transgression, does that mean david would no longer be sinful because innocent of an transgression ? Heavens NO..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
David was not innocent to begin with. He had the knowledge of good and evil.
dude you cannot even comprehend a simple point, i must discontinue any further converse with you.
SBG, I understand your point; Adam was sin waiting to happen. Peace out, dude.dude you cannot even comprehend a simple point, i must discontinue any further converse with you.