What if Adam had not sinned ?

[jasoncran]

This question is a trick question. It is proposed on a premise that is only sustainable in a human carnal reasoning. If God said we would die if we disobey Him and foresaw we would disobey Him, how is it He is unjust because we die? Moreover, if God allowed such things to transpire for the sake of proving He is infallable so as to end all debate, then He has been found trustworthy by our disobedience. Hence scripture says let all men be liars so that God be true.


To answer this I would have to understand Calvinism. Also I would need to know what definition of hell you are using for even Abraham was in Sheol. But I would think that God Who gave life can do whatever He wants with it, and He is just no matter what He does. I do not presume to correct God and I think you would agree, but only to worship Him as such. For this I must learn how to do through the knowledge of Who He is. And I am all for that. SBG57, one time told me that what I see doesn't matter. There is some Truth in that. Although it matters to me, it does not change what is purposed to be although it may play a part in it.

Why do I always find myself defending Calvinism for you and Eventide?

hell as in gehanna, and also why wouldnt go foreknow adam and eve would fall and simply(while it would hurt) reject him. why not set up warnings and consequences. this is the main reason i reject calvin. i dont think we are manipulate scripts of God. he knows our chooses ere we make then but love is vulnerable it has to be in order to be love, for the opposite of love is hate and rejection. in order for us to know love we have to have an idea of hate.If god makes men simply to die and burn up in gehanna then its big time mental gymanistacs to say that he doesnt do evil. the blame for all evil can be laid on him. so you know that i have knowingly resisted God. i know he was calling for a whole week to repent yet i said no. by his grace i didnt die but i KNEW fully what that voice was.

God allowed choices to be made and man to fall.he had to for if he "ordained" man to love him and makes him to love then how can our love be real since we were manipulated to love him?yes God foreknows and predestines, but the choice of men isnt denied. he knows what the answer will be. but he doesnt make us choose him.


whoesever will come, implies freewill.

 

[childeye]

hell as in gehanna, and also why wouldnt go foreknow adam and eve would fall and simply(while it would hurt) reject him. why not set up warnings and consequences. this is the main reason i reject calvin. i dont think we are manipulate scripts of God. he knows our chooses ere we make then but love is vulnerable it has to be in order to be love, for the opposite of love is hate and rejection. in order for us to know love we have to have an idea of hate.If god makes men simply to die and burn up in gehanna then its big time mental gymanistacs to say that he doesnt do evil. the blame for all evil can be laid on him. so you know that i have knowingly resisted God. i know he was calling for a whole week to repent yet i said no. by his grace i didnt die but i KNEW fully what that voice was.

God allowed choices to be made and man to fall.he had to for if he "ordained" man to love him and makes him to love then how can our love be real since we were manipulated to love him?yes God foreknows and predestines, but the choice of men isnt denied. he knows what the answer will be. but he doesnt make us choose him.


whoesever will come, implies freewill.

Jasoncran, this is why I say we are all divided by semantics. While it's true that God allowed men to choose knowing what they would choose, yet it is true that He has destined men to come to Him according to the lesson of our own folly and the inevitable acknowledgement of the Truth. You yourself say it when you say,"in order for us to know love we have to have an idea of hate". Well that's no different than what I say although it may hurt your pride to admit you agree with me.

Regarding hell. I understand your reasoning. It's easier for you to accept people are burning in hell forever believing they chose this themselves rather than God chose it for them. Now this I perceive is at the heart of the conflict between Arminians and Calvinists. But here is where I believe both are only arguing semantics. There is a scenario where no one is at fault so that no blame need be cast at either God or man. There is a way that makes us all blameless and yet Glorifies God and deposits only the Satan filled vessels in the lake of fire. There is a form of freewill, but not the one you define. So you say, "the blame for all evil can be laid on Him". Well who took the blame for sin? Both man and God in the flesh of the Christ.

So it is true he has ordained that we Love Him. This is the number one commandment and it will be fullfilled in all purity of Spirit. For the Christ makes a man Love God. So much so that we would die for Him even as He died for us.

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran, this is why I say we are all divided by semantics. While it's true that God allowed men to choose knowing what they would choose, yet it is true that He has destined men to come to Him according to the lesson of our own folly and the inevitable acknowledgement of the Truth. You yourself say it when you say,"in order for us to know love we have to have an idea of hate". Well that's no different than what I say although it may hurt your pride to admit you agree with me.

Regarding hell. I understand your reasoning. It's easier for you to accept people are burning in hell forever believing they chose this themselves rather than God chose it for them. Now this I perceive is at the heart of the conflict between Arminians and Calvinists. But here is where I believe both are only arguing semantics. There is a scenario where no one is at fault so that no blame need be cast at either God or man. There is a way that makes us all blameless and yet Glorifies God and deposits only the Satan filled vessels in the lake of fire. There is a form of freewill, but not the one you define. So you say, "the blame for all evil can be laid on Him". Well who took the blame for sin? Both man and God in the flesh of the Christ.

So it is true he has ordained that we Love Him. This is the number one commandment and it will be fullfilled in all purity of Spirit. For the Christ makes a man Love God. So much so that we would die for Him even as He died for us.

for the record agian im not a calvinist, the differences are subtile. when you and your wife met, did you make her love you? or was it YOUR charachter?

christs work on the cross is what makes us change. his goodness leads us to repentance. he doesnt force us to do anything. he simply has is way of interupting our lives. we then once we are able to see him reject or accept that love.

christs work no doubt is a mysterious, you see for me to agree with you would take a 180 on perseverance of the saints.

kinda hard when christ says he that endureth to the end shall in now wise blot out.hmm if you were in the book of life in the first place that means you can be blotted out.

we are trying to grasp a God above us, neither of us fully understands why God saves some and not others. we each have our way of explaining. pride has little to do with this. i merely dont see the bible your way. dont think i dont listen to calvinistic doctrines.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;570168]for the record agian im not a calvinist, the differences are subtile.

Enough with this Calvinist stuff. I don't think you are a Calvinist nor am I. We are followers of Christ and should not have such carnal labels.

when you and your wife met, did you make her love you? or was it YOUR charachter?

A good question although lost in semantics. Why? Because if it was my character then I made her Love me. I do believe that is your point and mine. If you asked my wife though, she will say God made her Love me.

christs work on the cross is what makes us change. his goodness leads us to repentance. he doesnt force us to do anything.

Speak for yourself concerning this for I do feel that Love is thee eternal force greater than all other forces.

we then once we are able to see him reject or accept that love.

I don't agree at all. That's not my experience. Nor does scripture support it. My experience is to see something so great that anyone who says they can refuse it I don't believe they've seen it. Go read the Psalms and the praises therein. Does this sound like the words or sentiments of one who thinks they can reject God?

christs work no doubt is a mysterious, you see for me to agree with you would take a 180 on perseverance of the saints.

I sincerely don't think you know what I believe.

kinda hard when christ says he that endureth to the end shall in now wise blot out.hmm if you were in the book of life in the first place that means you can be blotted out.

So? When did I ever say a person couldn't be blotted out? Moreover what do you suppose this endurance is? I will say it is faith in Love for one another based on believing that Love is by grace. Not faith in yourself. Why did Peter sink? No doubt such faith in Love is tested through tribulation which you would know more than I. So it is I sense perhaps what I say has no merit to you. Fair enough. I know nothing till I've been through what you've gone through. And because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold. Respectfully, you do not seem to know what iniquity is.

 

[jasoncran]

Enough with this Calvinist stuff. I don't think you are a Calvinist nor am I. We are followers of Christ and should not have such carnal labels.

A good question although lost in semantics. Why? Because if it was my character then I made her Love me. I do believe that is your point and mine. If you asked my wife though, she will say God made her Love me.


Speak for yourself concerning this for I do feel that Love is thee eternal force greater than all other forces.

I don't agree at all. That's not my experience. Nor does scripture support it. My experience is to see something so great that anyone who says they can refuse it I don't believe they've seen it. Go read the Psalms and the praises therein. Does this sound like the words or sentiments of one who thinks they can reject God?


I sincerely don't think you know what I believe.

So? When did I ever say a person couldn't be blotted out? Moreover what do you suppose this endurance is? I will say it is faith in Love for one another based on believing that Love is by grace. Not faith in yourself. Why did Peter sink? No doubt such faith in Love is tested through tribulation which you would know more than I. So it is I sense perhaps what I say has no merit to you. Fair enough. I know nothing till I've been through what you've gone through. And because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold. Respectfully, you do not seem to know what iniquity is.

really, i guess living the breif alternate lifestyle in which i hear God say to me, that sin, i told him no, i wanted that sin over him! no man is without excuse per romans one.

how about having a such good charachter then one is drawn to love you? notice i said drawn but not made.

and paul said this in hebrews

Hebrews 3



1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

hardening of the heart implies that we can resist the lord. again if theres no chance of rejection then there can be no love.we must have the choice of rejecting the love of God or accepting it. the sinner cant say to God in judgement but you never told me. instead he will know that he met god while alive and rejected him.

 

[jasoncran]

if one has no free will and God preordained you to salvations its kinda pointless to think that God saved you one minute and let you go. one with the other, that is why i find it odd that eventide accepts osas while affirming freewill.

 

[Levi]

if one has no free will and God preordained you to salvations its kinda pointless to think that God saved you one minute and let you go. one with the other, that is why i find it odd that eventide accepts osas while affirming freewill.

"God loves those who love His Son"

I think love is an act of volition

The Bible definitely teaches us it is more than a mushy feeling.

 

[jasoncran]

"God loves those who love His Son"

I think love is an act of volition

The Bible definitely teaches us it is more than a mushy feeling.

for the record salvation isnt so easily lost and neither am i a legalist. just i believe that we can grow cold and walk away from the lord. he wouldnt warn of us such dangers and ask to pray that we ARE worthy at his coming? that implies we should pray for growth and act when convicted. yes we are saved by grace but that doesnt mean we just pray a little pray and go back to sin. we must seek his face as its the very evidence of a changed heart. look i can love my wife today and the next choose to divorce her, why is with God we seem to think we cant divorce him?

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;570225]really, i guess living the breif alternate lifestyle in which i hear God say to me, that sin, i told him no, i wanted that sin over him! no man is without excuse per romans one.

Romans 1 is saying no man is excusable for not identifying the Godhead and that He has made all things and their attributes and their station. Your sin as you put it, is not the iniquity I speak of although perhaps perpetuated by it. We should continue in Romans one, past the no excuse part and see that God gave men over to the lust of the flesh because they did not esteem God as God. That is to say they took for granted, His attributes counting them as their own and became vain and so He made them subject to their flesh. Freewill defined as the ability to deny God is this vanity that thinks being made in God's image is a freewill. God does not choose between good and evil like man does. Hence Romans 1 says we traded in the Holy Image of God for an image like unto man. We worshipped the creation over the Creator. So God Himself caused men to become abominations. This is what puzzles me. You think you choose to have such sin over choosing God when God said He made it that way. The proof is that not all men have the same lusts for each man has his own sin. Here is an iniquity; when men judge other men as if they wanted to be sinners, as if they choose to be. You are trapped in your reasoning and I would dare say trapped in your conscience because of this.

how about having a such good charachter then one is drawn to love you? notice i said drawn but not made.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have already said the same in saying men cannot deny God's good Character and awesome Spirit so long as they can see it. We can't get water from stones but God can. Nonetheless God will make you do something since He must and this also is out of Love. He has made the boundaries and if you test them don't be surprised if their is recompense according to how hard one pushes those boundaries.

and paul said this in hebrews

I don't get out of Hebrews at all what you are implying is there.

hardening of the heart implies that we can resist the lord. again if theres no chance of rejection then there can be no love.we must have the choice of rejecting the love of God or accepting it. the sinner cant say to God in judgement but you never told me. instead he will know that he met god while alive and rejected him.

I think you have got that wrong. Let's take a look at this scripture for it is clear.

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.


This is clearly not talking about choosing to sin. This is as in Romans 1 not esteeming God as God which sin is the byproduct because of vanity. So hardening of the heart, in this instance, is not trusting God as our maker to know what is good for us. Notice they provoke God and end up walking the desert till that generation passes away. God forces them to walk that desert for forty years. So while we can resist God due to ignorance, I totally reject the assertion that this is a free will for it is subject to ignorance of God. Moreover the generation that walked out of that dessert had no inclination to provoke God, for they were molded in that desert, by God, to be thankful when they came into the land of milk and honey.

 

[childeye]

"God loves those who love His Son"

I think love is an act of volition

The Bible definitely teaches us it is more than a mushy feeling.

These are unstable words in my view. I am not sure because I am not sure what you mean by mushy feeling. I love Jesus and it is of course voluntary yet not voluntary because I see and recognize what is the cause of my Love. So as to say when I was a servant of sin and deceived I sinned voluntarily or so it seemed. Love is a mushy feeling to me. Tears don't flow from mental deliberation. Nor does God exist at the volition of men.

 

[jasoncran]

Romans 1 is saying no man is excusable for not identifying the Godhead and that He has made all things and their attributes and their station. Your sin as you put it, is not the iniquity I speak of although perhaps perpetuated by it. We should continue in Romans one, past the no excuse part and see that God gave men over to the lust of the flesh because they did not esteem God as God. That is to say they took for granted, His attributes counting them as their own and became vain and so He made them subject to their flesh. Freewill defined as the ability to deny God is this vanity that thinks being made in God's image is a freewill. God does not choose between good and evil like man does. Hence Romans 1 says we traded in the Holy Image of God for an image like unto man. We worshipped the creation over the Creator. So God Himself caused men to become abominations. This is what puzzles me. You think you choose to have such sin over choosing God when God said He made it that way. The proof is that not all men have the same lusts for each man has his own sin. Here is an iniquity; when men judge other men as if they wanted to be sinners, as if they choose to be. You are trapped in your reasoning and I would dare say trapped in your conscience because of this.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have already said the same in saying men cannot deny God's good Character and awesome Spirit so long as they can see it. We can't get water from stones but God can. Nonetheless God will make you do something since He must and this also is out of Love. He has made the boundaries and if you test them don't be surprised if their is recompense according to how hard one pushes those boundaries.


I don't get out of Hebrews at all what you are implying is there.


I think you have got that wrong. Let's take a look at this scripture for it is clear.

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.


This is clearly not talking about choosing to sin. This is as in Romans 1 not esteeming God as God which sin is the byproduct because of vanity. So hardening of the heart, in this instance, is not trusting God as our maker to know what is good for us. Notice they provoke God and end up walking the desert till that generation passes away. God forces them to walk that desert for forty years. So while we can resist God due to ignorance, I totally reject the assertion that this is a free will for it is subject to ignorance of God. Moreover the generation that walked out of that dessert had no inclination to provoke God, for they were molded in that desert, by God, to be thankful when they came into the land of milk and honey.

really? no they could have just went in if the ten didnt convince them couldnt take the the desert was a test to see if the children would serve him. none of that age made it, only joshua and caleb did from that age.

they had choose to believe.

they choose to believe in the fear. surely they knew that God brought them out from egypt with a mighty hand and he took out all of egypts army in the process and those cannanites werent bigger then egypts army at all. so their faith wasnt one at all. they didnt listen to the testimony of that.God didnt force them to do anything it was a judgment.

it like this, two of your kids are going to fall off a cliff. you can save them both. you choose to let one fall off the cliff and save one. that is the god you present to the lost. you may not say it that way but that is the way you put it.

we are very much all like that, God reaches out to save us and we must grab his hand. he doesnt make us grab his hand.

 

[Levi]

for the record salvation isnt so easily lost and neither am i a legalist. just i believe that we can grow cold and walk away from the lord. he wouldnt warn of us such dangers and ask to pray that we ARE worthy at his coming? that implies we should pray for growth and act when convicted. yes we are saved by grace but that doesnt mean we just pray a little pray and go back to sin. we must seek his face as its the very evidence of a changed heart. look i can love my wife today and the next choose to divorce her, why is with God we seem to think we cant divorce him?

Yes this is very true, Jesus cited 'hard hearts' as the reason for Moses permitting them to write out letters of divorce.

All relationships are the same.

If we don't work at them they die!

Good point.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;570412]really? no they could have just went in if the ten didnt convince them couldnt take the the desert was a test to see if the children would serve him. none of that age made it, only joshua and caleb did from that age.

A presumption to prove an assertion. You say they could have just went in "if". Always the proof of freewill is founded on "if only". The fact is they didn't just go in and there is a lesson here, and it is not you are free to distrust God at your discretion. You say they were being tested to see if they would serve Him and I say we are being taught to trust in Him. He provided the food, the water, He provided the Manna. This is a type for us because Christ is the Manna and Christ is the water. And there shoes never wore out. None of this was because men willed it to be.

they had choose to believe.

Well if they had to choose, that would be determinism not freewill.
free will

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: [SIZE=+0]chose to remain behind of my own free will.[/SIZE]
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

determinism
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

What is the opposite of free will?

The existence of free will is challenged by determinism . A denial of free will was implicit in Plato 's argument that, because no one would deliberately choose a worse over a better course of action, people's decisions are determined by their understanding (or ignorance) of what constitutes the good.

they choose to believe in the fear. surely they knew that God brought them out from egypt with a mighty hand and he took out all of egypts army in the process and those cannanites werent bigger then egypts army at all. so their faith wasnt one at all. they didnt listen to the testimony of that. God didnt force them to do anything it was a judgment.

Hypocrisy; If I say those who didn't make it out didn't have faith, you'll say they could have chose to have faith. If I say those who made it out had faith, you'll say they could have chosen not to. Of course it was judgment. They did not esteem God as they should have. Are you saying you would not be like them? Well I am saying I very well could have and maybe have been and maybe still am. This is humility I am addressing. My acknowledgment I need God to be truly free.

it like this, two of your kids are going to fall off a cliff. you can save them both. you choose to let one fall off the cliff and save one. that is the god you present to the lost. you may not say it that way but that is the way you put it.

No this is not what I believe. I believe God humbles those who exhault themselves and exhaults those who humble themselves. Hence I dislike the assertion that men are free in their wills to deny God. It is ignorance and pride in my view.

we are very much all like that, God reaches out to save us and we must grab his hand. he doesnt make us grab his hand.

I like your analogy and I'm glad to hear you say we're all like that even though I struggle to see how you mesh that with what you say above. You say we must grab His hand. Then you say He doesn't make us grab his hand as if there is some other alternative to grasp Life. As I've said over and over, trust and distrust are the powers in man that determine whether he will grab or not grab that hand of God. I don't need no help from God, I have a freewill, is a statement of pride and ignorance. Moreover the ignorance of man in his pride is such that he refuses to even admit he is fallen and already dead without grace. When you presented this scenario I right away saw the two hands of Michelangelos famous painting in the Cisteen Chapel. From Faith to faith.

This reasoning I am using is predicated upon determinism not freewill. For if God's hand was not there, there's nothing to grab on to despite a man's willingness to do so. Hence I say that men in vanity take God for granted. Freewill therefore is insignifigant and an illusion, a form of self deception. For if you are preaching an amoral freewill, you are teaching that we can deny God and live just as Satan did teach. And it seems you claim that Love does not even exist without Freewill. Whereas I teach that our wills won't exist as freewills without Love. We will pass away but Love is eternal not the other way around.

Life is not predicated on death, nor are lies necessary so that Truth exists. Such thinking is the foundation of folly in my view. Those things contrary to God only exist in this dimension so that they can be seen for what they are and we may learn what it is that we take for granted. So let's learn the lesson so we may esteem God properly and get outta here.

 

[jasoncran]

again you assume much on that basis. you by that calvinism which you confirm in each post.

pressumption number one
t as in total depravity
pressumption number two
u as in umerited grace
pressumption number three
limited atonement
pressumption number four
iressitable grace
number 5 and last
persverance of the saints

one for you is implied, two is also three must there for be also in you doctrine and so is the other two. for it to be love there MUST be an option and ability to say no. i met a man who told me" i aint afraid of hell, and jail" he isnt he has been to jail. he told what the bible says about hell one day. so you dont think he isnt willing to go to hell? i say so. men do and will go to hell. you thinking says well God didnt touch them they never met him. it has to as freewill and determism is denied by your logic, therefore by arbitrary means God makes certain vessels fit for destruction.

that to me isnt God. one cant say well God revealed himself to me and just fell in love. yes that does happen but really. as i told you,. I fully knew what my sin was and i wanted it over God. it took some shaking to get me to change that was done by a friend with the power of God, when i read romans 1, i knew it was that sin, i said it out LOUD, i called her and asked and she said" you know what you must do" so i wanted to deny that and i tried but i gave in.

by his grace i didnt. but i still struggled with choice to repent even after feeling and knowing GOD hated that sin and convicted me.dont tell me that isnt a choice to repent.

just because we are sick in sin and powerless to stop doesnt mean we really want to change. some men choose that over God as they dont want to serve him. they know who he is fully.

meet such a man

alistar crowley.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;570556]again you assume much on that basis. you by that calvinism which you confirm in each post.

pressumption number one
t as in total depravity

When did I say we have total depravity?

pressumption number two
u as in umerited grace

Yes If this means grace is given not earned I agree.

pressumption number three
limited atonement

When did I say I believed in limited atonement?

pressumption number four
iressitable grace

You mean like unable to not believe in the Christ? Unable to deny that God is awesome? Yeah I admit it wholeheartedly. I don't take credit for it if that's what you mean.

number 5 and last
persverance of the saints

And what does this mean? Do I believe the saints should perservere, or will absolutely perservere? I believe we are being saved by mercy and our hope is God's mercy will perservere with us. I have no illusion knowing one can be blotted out of the book of life. My concern is to understand correctly what that perserverance is. I believe it is perserverance in Loving others who hurt you, Charity and the like. For scripture says if we walk in the Spirit the flesh dies and we won't sin. It is also clear there are things that pollute the Spirit by things we do. But I think the saints will perservere. I'm very hopeful about it.

i met a man who told me" i aint afraid of hell, and jail" he isnt he has been to jail. he told what the bible says about hell one day. so you dont think he isnt willing to go to hell?

Jasoncran, I don't think we should believe everything we hear. I'm not afraid of jail or hell either. It doesn't mean I like jail or hell and I'm willing to go. You are saying this man is hard. So? What does this mean? We have freewills? Men that are reprobate can profess God yet in works deny Him.

i say so. men do and will go to hell. you thinking says well God didnt touch them they never met him. it has to as freewill and determism is denied by your logic, therefore by arbitrary means God makes certain vessels fit for destruction.

Determinism is not denied by my Logic. The Christ divides and men will fall on one side or the other. They have to choose even if they choose not to choose, for Jesus says if you are not for me, you're against me.

Yes there is a mountain of flesh scripture says is a remembrance of what happens when men disobey God. I suppose God has determined that it will happen. But since the carnal mind cannot be subject to God, perhaps to God, He wants to show we are just vessels and perhaps there is nothing in those vessels left to save. Are we wiser than God? Moreover, if we were all dead and He had mercy where He had mercy, is it unfair of God because He didn't let us all perish? If not for His promise to Abraham we wouldn't even have a hope. I will not despise His goodness. We have not seen the end of things and are in no position to judge this.

that to me isnt God. one cant say well God revealed himself to me and just fell in love. yes that does happen but really.

Well yes, really. There are people who adore Christ. How does Peter say, "you are the Messiah?" Is it no small matter that Peter would declare such a thing. Scripture says it was not flesh and blood that revealed this, and there is a reason why Jesus said that. How can you simply ignore that?

as i told you,. I fully knew what my sin was and i wanted it over God.

God knew that, so if you have a freewill, why didn't you just simply choose to want God over sin? I'd really like to see how you answer that.

it took some shaking to get me to change, that was done by a friend with the power of God,

You should be thankful to God for such a friend.

when i read romans 1, i knew it was that sin, i said it out LOUD, i called her and asked and she said" you know what you must do" so i wanted to deny that and i tried but i gave in.

You submitted to the Truth. Honesty cannot deny, so it is Satan's lies can be revealed, but the flesh does not approve.

by his grace i didnt.

You just said above by the power of God. Did your friend love you enough to shake you or not? Or are you saying by His grace I didn't deny?

but i still struggled with choice to repent even after feeling and knowing GOD hated that sin and convicted me.dont tell me that isnt a choice to repent.

Repentance is a choice, as we are in a moral direction away from God, a man must obviously turn back to God to escape sin. But this does not mean that sinning is a freewill. On the contrary it is an enslaved will. But if I count sin as freedom then I count God as slavery and favor sin. As you yourself testify. Moreover since we are the object of God's salvation it is not possible to not be involved in the process. After all, the will is the sentient being. You will do things. Being turned is about the mind seeing which way the light shines from. If your hope is in sin your light is darkness.

just because we are sick in sin and powerless to stop doesnt mean we really want to change. some men choose that over God as they dont want to serve him. they know who he is fully.

Yes of course, the bible says there are those whom God has given over to a reprobate mind. They want no knowledge of God. As I said, the only true freewill is one who has the knowledge of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Adam was not Spiritual !

When Adam was created he was not a spiritual man! This is gathered from the inspired writings of the Apostle Paul 1 Cor 15:45-48


45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Pay special attention to vs 46. He was natural but not spiritual. Adam when he was freshly created by God, he needed to be born again, born of the Spirit, for him being responsible for sin entering the world was evidence of that, and God called him earthy. However the Kingdom that God had prepared for His People from the foundation, even before Adam was created, was Spiritual and it was heavenly. Matt 25:34

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2 Tim 4:18

18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 11:16

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

I'm sure someone would have eventually sinned, given our nature. Probably sooner rather than later.

Many already did, IN HEAVEN and were thrown out as a result!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Adam was not Spiritual !

Most religionists assume that Adam was spiritual at creation because of what is written Gen 5:1

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; and from this again it is assumed, because God is a Spirit, that Adam therefore was created spiritual and had God's likeness in that regards; also many read into it that, that God created Adam with a Sovereign freewill like his Creator ! However this concept cannot stand the testimony of scripture, that Adam was not made spiritual, but earthy, soulish and plain natural 1 Cor 15. Even if for a moment we would grant that Adam was spiritual, yet his failure and mutability and sin show that he was no comparison to God who is Infinite, Eternal,and Immutable. So it was not in this sense at all Adam was created in the image and likeness of God !

 

[childeye]

So why did the carnal precede the spiritual and why does the Letter of the law precede the Spirit of the law? I believe it is God's plan to sow the seed of the children of Light in corruption so that mankind could grow towards God forever. And this is why I say the reason for sin is because Satan took God for granted and had no regard for Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now how was Adam created in the Image and likeness of God ? Paul informs us of this Mystery. Paul in regards to Adam writes Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

A figure is an image or likeness.t is the greek word typos and means:


the mark of a stroke or blow, print

2) a figure formed by a blow or impression

a) of a figure or image

b) of the image of the gods

3) form

an example

a) in the technical sense, the pattern in conformity to which a thing must be made

And so Paul instructs us in how Adam was in the Image and Likeness of God. The God - Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5. Yes, Adam was made in the Likeness and Image of God by being made like unto the God Man Mediator, Christ Jesus, who was in the Image and Likeness of God as the Firstborn of every creature Col 1:15

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The First Adam, Natural and Earthy is the figure of the God -Man, The Lord from Heaven, the Last Adam, and this likeness is set forth in that Male and Female created he them Gen 5:1

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

God through Paul is revealing a Great Mystery see Eph 5:32 and tells us more matter of factual how is it that Adam was made in the Image and Likeness of God. It was by forming Adam in His Creation with the embodiment of His Wife, which was to be taken out of Him and be called woman; So this was presenting in a figure, the Bride, the Lambs Wife [ see Rev 21:9] In the Creation of Adam, all His Offspring, the natural lives of the Elect were created in Him, and likewise, all the Spiritual Offspring of Christ were created in Him, that Adam which is the Lord from Heaven. The writer of Hebrews states Heb 2:11

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

He was called Adam as He encompassed His Wife and His Progeny. So God called their Name Adam in the Day they were Created. In like manner, the Entire Spiritual Family was embraced in Christ Jesus Eph 3:15. Christ as the Head of His Body with its many members equals Christ 1 Cor 12:12

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

This is how Adam was made in the Image and Likeness of God..