What is Election?

[Deborah13]

1 Peter 1:2 says 4 things that go together.
1. Foreknowledge of God
2. Sanctifying work of the Spirit
3. Our obedience to Jesus Christ
4. Being sprinkled with his blood.

Acts 2:23

God knew ahead of time that they would put Jesus to death and this was his plan.

I agree with you completely about Acts 2:23.
So can we say that, 'determined counsel' (his plan) is not necessarily the same thing as 'foreknowledge', as least in this verse?
That is what I hear you saying.

I love that 1 Peter verse, I think you have outlined as I would, too. Our interpretation may be different, but I'll about bet it's not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who does that? I don't. And i believe in election.

Good, then you must be in agreement with me. But how can I really know since you really haven't made your POV clear.

You haven't made your understanding of election clear. It's not a matter of election/ no election. It's a matter of making your own understanding of election clear.

 

[chessman]

No I won't...I'm OHAH.

Cool. Home is where the heart is. Since your heart is in Christ, you're home!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with you completely about Acts 2:23.
So can we say that, 'determined counsel' (his plan) is not necessarily the same thing as 'foreknowledge', as least in this verse?
That is what I hear you saying.

I love that 1 Peter verse, I think you have outlined as I would, too. Our interpretation may be different, but I'll about bet it's not.

Do you personally think 'predetermined plan' has to mean it happens without question because it happens apart from the will and choice of the person (or nation) for whom the predetermined plan is made?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes he was chosen for that, just as we are chosen for whatever it is God has in store for us. We do not elect or choose ourselves to God's service, but that hardly means we don't have any choice in the matter. But that is instantly what it means to some.

Being chosen=no choice

Why is this true for the kingdom, but not true in anything else?

Example:
We are on the playground choosing up sides for a basketball game.
I say, "I chose you to play on my team".
You say, "I don't want to play on your team" and you walk away.
I say, "don't forget, I chose you and you refused".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Example:
We are on the playground choosing up sides for a basketball game.
I say, "I chose you to play on my team".
You say, "I don't want to play on your team" and you walk away.
I say, "don't forget, I chose you and you refused".

Right on, except that I would alter it slightly to read, "don't forget, I called you and you refused." (If they had responded then they would have been chosen.)

 

[turnorburn]

I thought this would have been settled by now, then i read some material about Calvin and Wesley, those two went back and forth over this their entire lives..

tob

 

[Deborah13]

Yes he was chosen for that, just as we are chosen for whatever it is God has in store for us. We do not elect or choose ourselves to God's service, but that hardly means we don't have any choice in the matter. But that is instantly what it means to some.

Being chosen=no choice

Why is this true for the kingdom, but not true in anything else?

To me 'determined counsel' means that God 'determined it, so it WILL be done'. If that also relates directly to the plan God has for our lives, then that would mean that His perfect plan WILL be accomplished in our lives no matter what. It is not up to us.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree with you completely about Acts 2:23.
So can we say that, 'determined counsel' (his plan) is not necessarily the same thing as 'foreknowledge', as least in this verse?
That is what I hear you saying.

I love that 1 Peter verse, I think you have outlined as I would, too. Our interpretation may be different, but I'll about bet it's not.

Well, "determined council" could be interpreted as "deliberate plan".
In this case one can say that God chose this point in time for his plan to work without intervening with man's will.

 

[Deborah13]

Do you personally think 'predetermined plan' has to mean it happens without question because it happens apart from the will and choice of the person (or nation) for whom the predetermined plan is made?

Yes, if God has 'determined' something, it will be done.

But I think the issue is, did God randomly chose certain people to be saved? No, I believe He chose by
prognOsei = beforehand-knowledge, knew who would take the Jacob path, and believe by faith.






G4268
n_ Dat Sg f
BEFORE-KNOWledge
foreknowledge








G4268
n_ Dat Sg f
BEFORE-KNOWledge
foreknowledge

 

[Sinthesis]

Let me see if I understand you correctly.
Because verse 20, says certain Greeks had gone to the temple, not all Greeks, that means in verse 32, Jesus doesn't mean all men, just certain men?

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Can you explain why John 6:44 says the Father draws and this verse says Jesus draws?
I already shared what I thought.

Blessings

What attracted people to Jesus in John 6 was their belief He was the Jewish Messiah, promised them by the Father throughout the OT. Thus the only people drawn to Him were so drawn because they believed God the Father. This is why Jesus was not initially sent to the 'gentile dogs', because non-Jews could not be expected to accept Him, and it was remarkable to Jesus when they did.

John 12 speaks of after the crucifixion, when Jesus is revealed as the Messiah for the whole world. This is the culmination of the gospel and shows that while the Father initially drew some Jews to Jesus, by holding to their myopic expectations of the Messiah they all deserted Jesus when He didn't appear to fill them on the cross. The mistaken image of a purely Jewish Messiah is eclipsed by the reality of Jesus as the entire world's Messiah who attracts men of every background.

This is why people can be witnessed to with just the NT, while without the OT nobody would have even been expecting Him.

 

[chessman]

You haven't made your understanding of election clear. It's not a matter of election/ no election. It's a matter of making your own understanding of election clear.

See post #2 here in this thread.

Are you asking how election negates free will? Or how election negates God's foreknowledge? IDK that. You tell me. I believe in God's predestination, God's election, God's foreknowledge AND man's freewill. I see no conflict with any if these doctrines. Now, when people start redefining any of these terms from how they are used Biblically, all kinds of conflicts creep in. Very similar to Timothy's situation he found himself in while suffering thru a bunch of people in his church started redefining words.

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.


As for predestination and salvation:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved [past tense] us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,12 which is why I suffer as I do.

As for OSAS:

But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

 

[Deborah13]

Well, "determined council" could be interpreted as "deliberate plan".
In this case one can say that God chose this point in time for his plan to work without intervening with man's will.

I think you are right.
I also believe that if God has a plan for something to happen or be done, and He calls someone to do it, they can choose to do it or not, and God will find someone else who will.
Like say, God wants someone to fill the position of pastor at a particular church, Texas. God wants Joe in Maryland to fill it, Joe doesn't want to move to TX, he finds excuses to determine that God wasn't really calling him there.
God will raise someone else up to fulfill his plan for that church. We are not indispensable.
And Joe, he didn't go to his place called 'there'. He missed a blessing.

 

[Sinthesis]

Yes, if God has 'determined' something, it will be done.

But I think the issue is, did God randomly chose certain people to be saved? No, I believe He chose by
prognOsei = beforehand-knowledge, knew who would take the Jacob path, and believe by faith.






G4268
n_ Dat Sg f
BEFORE-KNOWledge
foreknowledge








G4268
n_ Dat Sg f
BEFORE-KNOWledge
foreknowledge

Prognosis!!
So consider that perhaps the 'elect' are not chosen beforehand, but are any who themselves choose to follow a path that was itself ordained beforehand. Jesus Christ, the only truly elect person, is the trailblazer, and we follow Him as He shows us 'the way'.

 

[Deborah13]

What attracted people to Jesus in John 6 was their belief He was the Jewish Messiah, promised them by the Father throughout the OT. Thus the only people drawn to Him were so drawn because they believed God the Father. This is why Jesus was not initially sent to the 'gentile dogs', because non-Jews could not be expected to accept Him, and it was remarkable to Jesus when they did.

John 12 speaks of after the crucifixion, when Jesus is revealed as the Messiah for the whole world. This is the culmination of the gospel and shows that while the Father initially drew some Jews to Jesus, by holding to their myopic expectations of the Messiah they all deserted Jesus when He didn't appear to fill them on the cross. The mistaken image of a purely Jewish Messiah is eclipsed by the reality of Jesus as the entire world's Messiah who attracts men of every background.

This is why people can be witnessed to with just the NT, while without the OT nobody would have even been expecting Him.

Oh thank you so much. This is want I was just beginning to see between the two scriptures. But it was still foggy. Now it is clear.
I hope your post is as edifying to others, as it is to me.

 

[Deborah13]

Prognosis!!
So consider that perhaps the 'elect' are not chosen beforehand, but are any who themselves choose to follow a path that was itself ordained beforehand. Jesus Christ, the only truly elect person, is the trailblazer, and we follow Him as He shows us 'the way'.

Oh!! I keep seeing things only partially. Thanks again. It is the path that is ordained.
And yes, Jesus is 'the Chosen One' and we are in Him, chosen.

 

[Sinthesis]

Oh!! I keep seeing things only partially. Thanks again. It is the path that is ordained.
And yes, Jesus is 'the Chosen One' and we are in Him, chosen.

Yes, and other paths can lead to destruction, so while it appears that those persons who choose that wide path are ordained to destruction, instead they are simply caught up in a path leading to a house ordained for destruction.

 

[Chopper]

Well, I can see I stuck my foot in my mouth again, and need to be more careful of the words I use. Words are powerful, aren't they?
What I meant and should have said, is that you see certain things that I don't see. That is NOT your opinion but your theology.
I sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings that was never my intent. Please forgive me.

I love you too, Chopper and much more importantly, Jesus loves you!

Thank you my dear Sister in Christ, I forgive you for sure. Please forgive me for being so sensitive, it's a good thing that I'm not a Mod. I'd be jumping on everyone for the least infraction. lol. Words are powerful indeed. When we think about it, words are what God used to create. So thank you for your explanation, I'll keep that in mind for future communication....Love you.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, and other paths can lead to destruction, so while it appears that those persons who choose that wide path are ordained to destruction, instead they are simply caught up in a path leading to a house ordained for destruction.

And so we never give up on having an opportunity to witness to them.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you my dear Sister in Christ, I forgive you for sure. Please forgive me for being so sensitive, it's a good thing that I'm not a Mod. I'd be jumping on everyone for the least infraction. lol. Words are powerful indeed. When we think about it, words are what God used to create. So thank you for your explanation, I'll keep that in mind for future communication....Love you.

Hi Chopper, I hope you forgive me too.