chessman
Member
Understanding this verse to be Paul doing anything to save elect people may be the worst misunderstanding of Scripture that I've ever seen. Care to?
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What is Election?
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Understanding this verse to be Paul doing anything to save elect people may be the worst misunderstanding of Scripture that I've ever seen. Care to?
Paul is calling the elect the entire Thessalonian church, otherwise the letter is not written to us, only a special select group of people.
Deborah13
Member
I agree, and when look at Esau and Jacob, what they did and Why, and at their parents who they loved, what they did and Why. I see the very principles that you have just stated.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Care to what? The ball is in your court. Explain what Paul is saying that somehow defends election as is being put forth in this thread:.
"10 ...I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too (the elect) may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus..."
(2 Timothy 2:10 NIV parenthesis mine)
Why does Paul endure everything for the sake of the elect who are forever, from eternity past to eternity future, eternally saved and beyond any man's will or power of choice to not be saved?
Simple question. It's your opportunity to explain election as you understand it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Awesome.
I'm encouraged that someone else can see what I'm saying. It's rational. And, importantly, it's relative to the context of the point Paul is trying to make.
I wonder what Andy W. has to say about this subject?
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is not the first time I've seen people get in trouble by trying to make 'the elect' a distinct and separate group from all believers.
I haven't heard it in a while, but it used to be popularly taught that 'the elect' was Israel. Easily debunked by scripture when you see gentiles also addressed as 'the elect' (it's been a while, I have to remember the scriptures). I think they did that in order to defend a certain brand of end-times thinking.
Right off, I'm not familiar with the Thess. reference you're making.
2 Thessalonians 2:10, you quoted it yourself, twice, lol.
I'm the dummy here.
2 Timothy 2:10.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Found it...
"4 ...knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." (1 Thessalonians 1:4 NKJV)
Good work, mate!
"4 ...knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." (1 Thessalonians 1:4 NKJV)
Good work, mate!
So it's not to the Thessalonian church, but to all the church.
Oh, you found what I didn't.
You a genius man!
Oh, you found what I didn't.
You a genius man!
Jethro Bodine
Member
High five!
(no genius here...just surrounded by a great bunch of believers. Spell check told me I don't even know how to spell genius, lol.)
(no genius here...just surrounded by a great bunch of believers. Spell check told me I don't even know how to spell genius, lol.)
chessman
Member
that's easy. You can't even get out of there very verse you mentioned. Their salvation is IN CHRIST, not in Paul.
You ellipsed out the first part of that verse. "Therefore, ..." You might want to read why Paul is even saying what he did to Timothy in that verse. it's there for a reason. Why was Paul suffering? Why does any Christian suffer? Even some that evidently are hurt by "the church".
2 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, ...
3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus...
5 An athlete is not crowned unless he competes ... [suffers a little]
6 It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering,bound with chains as a criminal...
If Paul meant for Timothy or anybody else to be saved by what Paul was going thru, that would have been a perfect place for him to have said, remember me. But yet, he said remember Christ.
But he goes on to say:
10 Therefore I endure everything...
The whole verse/subject is Paul explaining suffering as a Christian. And we all do a little. Like sticking our necks out in an online forum at times, only to get bashed a little.
But again, Paul preaches salvation only in Christ, more than anybody I know. Paul would roll over in his grave, if he thought people understood him to be preaching salvation via Paul's actions.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Maybe this will help us out here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1589&t=KJV
I'm usually adverse to Greek studies, but I think it important to be able to discern where translators have inserted the word and where it actually appears in the scriptures.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1589&t=KJV
I'm usually adverse to Greek studies, but I think it important to be able to discern where translators have inserted the word and where it actually appears in the scriptures.
Deborah13
Member
Awesome.
It's rational. And, importantly, it's relative to the context of the point Paul is trying to make.
I wonder what Andy W. has to say about this subject?
lol, since you asked here's what he says about this verse....
" Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Note 20 at 2Ti 2:10: One of Paul's secrets to his faithfulness was that he had a love and commitment to Someone and Something bigger than himself. He was enduring hardship, including imprisonment and probable execution, so that others could experience the great salvation he knew through Christ.
Those who serve only themselves will always take the easy way out. Only those who have found the freedom of commitment to a greater purpose will ever sacrifice self. Self-love breeds self-protection at all costs, which is the root of cowardice. Love for others above one's self leads to self-sacrifice for the good of others. That is what Paul had.
Many of us wish we could have the courage of the Apostle Paul to remain faithful to the Lord regardless of the consequences, but that won't happen without making the commitments that the Apostle Paul made. He died to himself (see notes 13-14 at Ga 2:20) so that Christ could live through him. We must do the same if we want the same results."
http://www.awmi.net/bible/2ti_02_10
Mind you, I don't always agree with what he says, but more often than not, I do.
Andyism....If you don't stay close to Jesus and His word, "satan will eat your lunch and pop the bag."
He can't help it, he's just an old Texas, Baptist boy.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Kudos to Andy for addressing what really matters in the text.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why does resistance to predestination as you believe it mean I'm somehow saying Paul is the miracle of salvation for people? Connect the dots for me.
Wow! I'm just wondering how you missed the point that I was making.
Why is Paul suffering for an election that the retired pastor dude (forgot his name, sorry!) says are preordained for salvation, apart from their choice, for the purpose of being effective witnesses in the world? What do they need Paul for, while the regular run-of-the-mill believer does need him? That's the question.
Maybe it doesn't matter now that we know 'elect' doesn't even appear in the original text. Obviously it was added for purposes of interpretation (not translation) by some Bible versions. Unless there is another form of the word used there. I'll check it out.
Deborah13
Member
Here we see the scripture specifically given to the 'elect'. It seems to me that if the elect is not the whole body of Christ, then the rest of the Body, was not given these instruction, including the last one quoted and those beyond.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
chessman
Member
I didn't say anything about what I believe about predestination, you just did for me. I didn't say "Paul was trying to get the elect saved" in 2 Tim 2:10 you did.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You're just going to have to explain your position. Then we can discuss it.
My question is, if the elect are chosen by God to be saved without the chance or opportunity for a choice in the matter (as opposed to the rest of us non-elected Christians) why is Paul suffering for them? I can see the 2 Timothy passage applying to what retired pastor dude calls non-elect people who may or may not believe, but not to the elect as he defines them. But as it is, Paul is indeed speaking of the 'chosen' in the passage: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV
So don't get angry, just explain your position so we don't have to second guess you.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You're right. Paul is talking to the 'chosen' here. The Greek makes that clear.
I'm thinking of this passage, too:
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble..." (2 Peter 1:9-10 NKJV)
How hard it is to only accept this as being spoken to a special elect and chosen set of believers, special workers in the kingdom who have no choice whether to believe or not, and not spoken to the rest of us.
chessman
Member
I'm not angry. My position is that you misrepresented what Paul was saying and why he was saying it in 2 Tim 2:10. Nothing more, nothing less. It was a very specific point only toward that post.