What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

What is Election?

allenwynne said:
that I might preach him among the heathen

Hi Messenger, you see this above?
Paul was chosen, but he still tells us that he had a choice as to whether he would do it or not.
That word "might" is Mighty"!

False religions exalt man's "freewill" to be the deciding factor in salvation;
making Sovereign God subject to the will of man. That is blasphemy.

And which false religions are these?
I've never heard that before?
Click to expand...

No, might doesn't mean whether he would, or maybe he wouldn't, lol!
It means he will preach it according to God's will for him to do so:

euaggelizō




    • to bring good news, to announce glad tidings
      1. used in the OT of any kind of good news
        1. of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings
      2. in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation

      3. glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him

      4. to proclaim glad tidings
        1. instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation
 
Messenger said:
No, might doesn't mean whether he would, or maybe he wouldn't, lol!
It means he will preach it according to God's will for him to do so:

euaggelizō




    • to bring good news, to announce glad tidings
      1. used in the OT of any kind of good news
        1. of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings
      2. in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation

      3. glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him

      4. to proclaim glad tidings
        1. instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation
Click to expand...


I find no reference anywhere to euaggelizo in Galatians 1:15.
You wrong!
 
It's not right that Paul's teaching--that justification is conditioned on faith in God's forgiveness, and that it's always been that way--is somehow brought to an unrelated conclusion that God makes people believers or unbelievers as he chooses.

I'll be digging into the posts as I can.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
It's not right that Paul's teaching--that justification is conditioned on faith in God's forgiveness, and that it's always been that way--is somehow brought to an unrelated conclusion that God makes people believers or unbelievers as he chooses.

I'll be digging into the posts as I can.
Click to expand...
Go on, tell us more.
 
Deborah13 said:
Hi Messenger, I haven't seen you here in a while, welcome.
I'm not addressing your doctrine in this post but frankly, I find this post to be unproductive. What I hear you saying in this post is that, I am not saved, I am in a false religion [edited].
The issue here is not people believing they are justified by works, whether it be works of law or good works.
It's more complex than that. There are many, many born again people, do not agree on HOW salvation happens, but most would all agree, that we cannot in anyway obtain it by anything that we can do, without Gods intervention.
Click to expand...


Hi Deb.

When a person thinks his own freewill decision can override the choice that God already completed
before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3-11; 2 Tim. 1:9), that is blasphemy.

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We can be assured that all those God had chosen and predestined to become saved,
they will become saved because God's will is perfect!

John 17:1-2 - These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

God's perfect will be done!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Messenger said:
False religions exalt man's "freewill" to be the deciding factor in salvation;
making Sovereign God subject to the will of man. That is blasphemy.
Click to expand...
(I'm working backwards through the post...)

Somewhere along the line the Church decided that the 'work' of believing was somehow included in the works that Paul says don't, and can't, justify a person. That's what gives strength to so many misguided doctrines in the church today.

And so believing this, men have gone to great lengths to make the faith that justifies utterly and completely separate from man's decision to exercise it.
 
Messenger said:
John 17:1-2 - These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

God's perfect will be done!
Click to expand...
How does this have to mean that it's impossible that man can choose to trust in the promise of God's forgiveness, or not.

Why is it impossible to read that verse and know that man has faith, is accepted by God, and given eternal life because of the work of his trusting. Where is choice negated in the above passage?
 
allenwynne said:
Messenger, what makes you think that if someone questions Bible interpretation that it is blasphemy?
You are way off base here.
Click to expand...

Now where did I say that?

English bibles are only translations of the original languages. Consequently, sometimes the word(s) is not quite accurate.
So if a person questions Bible interpretation, they need to go to the original language and check out the Hebrew or Greek word for themselves.
 
That's a nice thought but even Bible scholars question each others' interpretations.
When that happens, where do they go?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
(I'm working backwards through the post...)

Somewhere along the line the Church decided that the 'work' of believing was somehow included in the works that Paul says don't, and can't, justify a person. That's what gives strength to so many misguided doctrines in the church today.

And so believing this, men have gone to great lengths to make the faith that justifies utterly and completely separate from man's decision to exercise it.
Click to expand...


View attachment 3750I'm timing you
 
10 ...I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus..." (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV)

Why does Paul want to make sure the elect--who already have, and have always been saved whether they like it or not--obtain salvation?


"...that they too may obtain salvation..." Obtain salvation along with who else?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
10 ...I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus..." (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV)

Why does Paul want to make sure the elect--who already have, and have always been saved whether they like it or not--obtain salvation?


"...that they too may obtain salvation..." Obtain salvation along with who else?
Click to expand...
Good point Jethro, I missed that
Jethro Bodine said:
Huh?
Click to expand...
See my clock?
You said you were doing everything backwards.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
How does this have to mean that it's impossible that man can choose to trust in the promise of God's forgiveness, or not.

Why is it impossible to read that verse and know that man has faith, is accepted by God, and given eternal life because of the work of his trusting. Where is choice negated in the above passage?
Click to expand...


Remember, God has already made the choice of all those He planned to save before the foundation of the world. (Eph.1:4-11; Rom. 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Cor. 5:19).
 
allenwynne said:
Good point Jethro, I missed that

See my clock?
You said you were doing everything backwards.
Click to expand...
Messenger said:
Remember, God has already made the choice of all those He planned to save before the foundation of the world. (Eph.1:4-11; Rom. 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Cor. 5:19).
Click to expand...
Okay, IOW, it's not in the passage.

You're reading the passage according to a preconceived understanding.

Nothing wrong with that...as long as the preconceived understanding is correct and supported by other scriptures.

So I think we can agree this passage does not teach what you say it does. You're merely reading it in light of what you already believe, not reading it to prove to us what you believe is true.
 
allenwynne said:
LOL, this is what Calvin and Wesley must have felt about each other.
Click to expand...

Yes my friend, You are right. I really don't have anything more to add. I thought I explained the difference between the elect and those not elected. Either I did not make it clear enough, or there is a spiritual blindness going on, or, people don't want a solution, they just want something to debate. I'll just sit back and, as Deb says, it's my opinion. Well I'll keep to my opinion and do something else.

I'm sure you and I will meet again down the forum road. Until then, be blessed my Brother.
 
That's why scripture itself is not enough to justify one way or another because we always end up with preconceived ideas. That's why I use philosophy and reason. It makes more sense to me that God would know in advance and set up a plan, than to ordain from the beginning that people would be saved or wouldn't. It's also backed up in scripture. It's fine to have an interpretation, but it is just an interpretation unless there is another way to demonstrate it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top