What is Election?

[Messenger]

That's a nice thought but even Bible scholars question each others' interpretations.
When that happens, where do they go?

because one calls himself a Bible scholar, a pastor, a chaplain, an evangelist, etc., that has no bearing on whether he actually
preaches the truth from God's Word; or that Christ died for him. Most Bible teachings today come from the minds of men!

God teaches His own. (Psalm 25:14, 51:6; John 15:15; Rom.16:25-27; Col.3:3)
They can "hear" because God has given them (John 3:27) the hearing ear. (Prov. 20:12)

John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

TGBTG!

 

[reba]

goodness guys consider this an official warning...

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.


I have done a little clean up if i happen to miss the post you were rude in i am sorry

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb.

When a person thinks his own freewill decision can override the choice that God already completed
before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3-11; 2 Tim. 1:9), that is blasphemy.

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We can be assured that all those God had chosen and predestined to become saved,
they will become saved because God's will is perfect!

John 17:1-2 - These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

God's perfect will be done!

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God saved us, any call that God would give is holy (anything at all from God is holy)
Purpose = To Glorify Himself

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Purpose = To raise up a people who would Glorify Him.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes my friend, You are right. I really don't have anything more to add. I thought I explained the difference between the elect and those not elected. Either I did not make it clear enough, or there is a spiritual blindness going on, or, people don't want a solution, they just want something to debate. I'll just sit back and, as Deb says, it's my opinion. Well I'll keep to my opinion and do something else.

I'm sure you and I will meet again down the forum road. Until then, be blessed my Brother.

Chopper, I hope I did offend you!
I certainly didn't mean your opinion does not have value, just that you have a right to it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I really don't have anything more to add. I thought I explained the difference between the elect and those not elected.

"10 ...I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus..."
(2 Timothy 2:10 NIV)

So I can understand your doctrine better...why is Paul trying to get the elect saved whom you say are already saved and distinguished from those who aren't saved and are up for grabs as to whether they will believe or not?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good point Jethro, I missed that

See my clock?
You said you were doing everything backwards.

Lol, for some reason I did not notice the backwards numbers.

I've noticed that as I go through the posts backwards you're getting younger...but farther away from the day of salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Lol, I never thought of it that way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There seem to be conditions we have to abide by.
But if there are conditions then it doesn't seem to agree with what is being said is election.

Election as it is being taught here is based on the premise that salvation is utterly and totally disconnected from what we do--even the 'work' of trusting itself.

The thing about doctrine is it's like a house. If the foundation is flawed then everything else built on it can't help but to be flawed too. This idea that salvation is completely and utterly divided from every single thing we do, even our trusting, is the flawed foundation that leads to what is IMO the flawed belief that God crafts us to be believers and unbelievers as a matter of preconceived choice.

In Acts 10:34-35 Peter says, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but excepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
This sounds like the door is open for anyone and we have to do something to qualify.

I agree, but the election that is being taught here says God does show favoritism. A favoritism that is going to be justified because it is somehow just and right (even though it obviously contradicts what God himself says about favoritism).

In Acts 13:48 the writer says, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed".
What does appointed mean?

We can probably learn more about 'appointment' by what it is not.

Does being appointed, for example, as a Congressman mean you were made a congressman where you were not one before, or that you fulfilled the qualifications of a congressman and were put into the place of a Congressman by another person? And why does that appointment have to mean it was determined without the input of the person beforehand?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "elect" does not have free will, they are chosen by God Almighty and does not fail to produce a small group of believers to represent Him in all generations.

Instead of having this doctrine to explain how God has people to represent him in those 'for such a time as this' moments, why is it not reasonable to believe that God, having foreknowledge of who will choose salvation of their own free will (with the gracious help of God), can simply bring them into the world at the right time to fill those 'for such a time as this' moments?

Since God is omniscient, why does he have to press pre-made believers out of a mold, who have no choice to be a believer, to fill the time slots of history instead of putting people he knows ahead of time will respond to his grace and serve his purposes in this life? That preserves, both, the free will of the person, and God. The rat can still scurry around in the boundaries of the rat maze according to his own will, and the master of the maze can still move the boundaries as he pleases.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 911 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
If election were on the basis of foreseen faith, then this verse would be the perfect place to make such a proposition. However, the proposition of election of the basis of foreseen faith is completely absent from what the verse says. In fact the opposite is stated. The verse asserts that the basis for election is according to the "purpose of Go

The purpose and plan of God is salvation is by faith, not works. That's the thesis of Paul's letter. But you're making it out to be a teaching about God deciding ahead of time who is a believer and who is not, entirely and completely separated from the will of the person.

The problem is, this whole part of Romans about election has been unrightly divided from the context of Paul's letter--the context being, justification is by faith in God, not by doing righteous things. And there's nothing you can do about it. THAT is what God has preordained.

It has been ordained from the beginning that people are chosen on the basis of their faith, not their righteous work. But somehow this has come to be understood as God makes you a believer or an unbeliever ahead of time.

The 'will' that is being negated in Paul's teaching is the will of man to somehow be saved by his own righteous work. He's not negating mans choice to be saved or not. He is defending God's will that man can only be saved by his faith and trust in the redemption he has provided. THAT is what God has preordained from the beginning.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

10 ...I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus..." (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV)

Why does Paul want to make sure the elect--who already have, and have always been saved whether they like it or not--obtain salvation?


"...that they too may obtain salvation..." Obtain salvation along with who else?

1 Thessalonians 5:9;
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".
Paul was talking to the whole church, saying they were appointed to receive Jesus Christ, which includes the elect.

How can anyone separate themselves from the whole church thinking that they are special above everyone else is beyond me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh oh, Reba's online.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, I hope I did offend you!
I certainly didn't mean your opinion does not have value, just that you have a right to it.

Well Deb, it's very frustrating trying to get across what I received by revelation from the Holy Spirit. First, a multitude of believers don't think that receiving wisdom from God in the form of revelation is possible. Second, I can see the solution of this debate so clearly and don't understand why others can't see it. And third, To try and convince believers of something new entering their preconceived theology is almost impossible, as in this case.

I guess I was a little hurt because you called what God gave me as opinion. I know that actually, I should not get offended but I do. I'm a very sensitive, loving person. The problems that I have faced because of being a preacher of repentance from sin, has brought me a lot of heartache. Praise God that He has been by my side always. The folk that I have been a shepherd too that have turned from sin, repented, and are now living close to the Lord are a great blessing to me and makes all the bad times forgetable.

I love you in the Lord my Sister, and hope that you and I will have many posts together as we travel down this Forum road together.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Thessalonians 5:9;
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".
Paul was talking to the whole church, saying they were appointed to receive Jesus Christ, which includes the elect.

And what I don't get is how people can automatically think that being appointed means 'being made a believer ahead of time without your consent or input' instead of being appointed meaning 'being put into place (appointed) because you trust in God's promise'.

How can anyone separate themselves from the whole church thinking that they are special above everyone else is beyond me.

In regard to a gift I can, but not in regard to salvation itself. I can't even conceive of someone daring to do that...even if they say it's entirely God's doing, not theirs. I don't want to offend anyone (I truly don't) but I can't help but to see that as a kind of arrogance. 'I'm special to God, you're not'.

But even though I can't help but to see that, it's not the reason I reject predestination as it is being put forth here. It's simply not a doctrine that the whole counsel of scripture defends. Like so many misguided doctrines in the church, it's strength comes the misunderstanding about faith being the 'work' of man that he must 'do' in order to be elected and appointed to the office of salvation (so to speak)...if he so chooses to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well Deb, it's very frustrating trying to get across what I received by revelation from the Holy Spirit. First, a multitude of believers don't think that receiving wisdom from God in the form of revelation is possible.

I do, but I don't believe in receiving wisdom and understanding by revelation that can't stand up to honest, valid, scriptural scrutiny. I personally am always keeping an open mind about the things I'm sure I've received as gracious revelation from the Spirit.

As Tristan was talking about, one thing unbelievers will do is keep you asking the hard questions about what you are sure is true about the faith. Learning is a complete picture that includes scrutiny from believers and unbelievers alike.

Second, I can see the solution of this debate so clearly and don't understand why others can't see it. And third, To try and convince believers of something new entering their preconceived theology is almost impossible, as in this case.

I personally only come up with my preconceived premises from that complete picture of revelation I was talking about. I guess the key to learning for me has been to not rely on the comfort of our preconceived premises. Always question them honestly, and from there adjust what you've built on that foundational premise. For this discussion, what is suspect is the church's misunderstanding about trust in God, and how that is indeed a 'work' that we do, and that it is distinct and separate from the works that Paul says do not justify. But somehow even trusting in God itself got swept into the damnable works righteousness that God says can not justify. That belief has created big problems for the church.

I guess I was a little hurt because you called what God gave me as opinion. I know that actually, I should not get offended but I do. I'm a very sensitive, loving person. The problems that I have faced because of being a preacher of repentance from sin, has brought me a lot of heartache.

That's why I rarely talk to unbelievers anymore. That's me though, folks. Don't follow my lead. This is a personal decision that I've made. I focus on talking to those already saved now. But the wounds aren't really any less hurtful, lol. It's just where I feel equipped to be.

Praise God that He has been by my side always. The folk that I have been a shepherd too that have turned from sin, repented, and are now living close to the Lord are a great blessing to me and makes all the bad times forgetable.

The reward of their presence in the kingdom, and their service to God on this earth, are waiting for you on the other side. You will be paid back in full and then some...no, alot!

Don't leave before we can understand your doctrine completely. The best way to make us understand is answer our polite and honest questions about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh oh, Reba's online.

Duck for cover!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since when is Reba's town open on Saturdays?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

She probably has the delete button in her hand right now.

 

[Deborah13]

Well Deb, it's very frustrating trying to get across what I received by revelation from the Holy Spirit. First, a multitude of believers don't think that receiving wisdom from God in the form of revelation is possible. Second, I can see the solution of this debate so clearly and don't understand why others can't see it. And third, To try and convince believers of something new entering their preconceived theology is almost impossible, as in this case.

I guess I was a little hurt because you called what God gave me as opinion. I know that actually, I should not get offended but I do. I'm a very sensitive, loving person. The problems that I have faced because of being a preacher of repentance from sin, has brought me a lot of heartache. Praise God that He has been by my side always. The folk that I have been a shepherd too that have turned from sin, repented, and are now living close to the Lord are a great blessing to me and makes all the bad times forgetable.

I love you in the Lord my Sister, and hope that you and I will have many posts together as we travel down this Forum road together.

Well, I can see I stuck my foot in my mouth again, and need to be more careful of the words I use. Words are powerful, aren't they?
What I meant and should have said, is that you see certain things that I don't see. That is NOT your opinion but your theology.
I sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings that was never my intent. Please forgive me.

I love you too, Chopper and much more importantly, Jesus loves you!