What is Election?

[Rollo Tamasi]

"The fact is, that the great questions about man's responsibility, free-will, and predestination have been fought over, and over, and over again, and have been answered ten thousand different ways; and the result has been that we know just as much about the matter as when we first began". Spurgeon

 

[farouk]

Deborah13: John 6.44 is a verse that is often overlooked, isn't it?

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Witness to all men because God commanded you to do it. That is reason enough.

Nevertheless, how do you know the "guy next to" you is going to hell and there is nothing he can do about it? Do you know who is elect and who is not? I do not make that claim. If God had painted yellow strips on the backs of all the elect that would make evangelism much easier.... I would go around lifting shirt tails before evangelizing. God commanded us to witness to all men. What more do we need?

A better question would be "why does God want us to witness to men who will reject the Gospel?" (Even if we cannot know that a person will reject the gospel to the end of his life). The answer is for the glory of God.

That question is in a way so similar to Romans 9:19.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Lets name this "guy next to me, he is going to hell and there is nothing he can do about it." Lets name him Pharaoh.
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
What chance did Pharaoh have in Romans 9? Pharaoh was not elect so that God could "show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth." There is the reason God wants some men not to believe. He wants to judge them with his power, and manifest the glory of his name. So in the preceding paragraph, I answered the question "for the glory of God." Then verse 19 raises the question is this fair. That is kind of the response you, allenwynne, are having? Is it fair that God only elects some to salvation?


Romans 9:22 repeats the same reason for evil in the world, the same reason God does not want some to be saved.
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Notice how the theme of God's wrath is repeated. God does not elect all mankind so that he can manifest the glory of his attribute of justice. He wants to show his wrath. Why does God have us witness to those who will reject the gospel? Because he wants to make the glory of all his attributes known. He shows his love to the elect, and his wrath to the rebels whom he does not choose. I would agree that is an uncomfortable thing to ponder because I am no different then the unbeliever except for the grace of God. But that is his right as the creator, and sovereign God of the universe, to dispose of his universe as he pleases. This is exactly what Paul is saying in verse 21.
Romans 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?


Romans 9 is not uplifting because we are mere pots in the potters hand. It is very humbling because we did nothing to get to heaven. We same lump of clay as unbelievers and none of it is about us, but its all about what is done by the potters hands.

Would you please address my question to you in post #73? It short and kind of hidden in your quote so I thought maybe you would miss it.
Thanks Deb

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13: John 6.44 is a verse that is often overlooked, isn't it?

Blessings.

It's one that mondar, used in one of his posts.
I don't think I'm always right, quite the opposite, so I was hoping to get feedback. Especially if someone sees a flaw in it.

 

[mondar]

Hi mondar, I do not see that this verse is saying that all of US are from the same lump of clay. In the context of the scripture, being Esau and Jacob who were of the same lump, being twins. The scripture compares the twins to each other and God's will.
How do you see this as meaning all people?

Hello Deborah13,
When I spoke of "the same lump of clay" I was referring to
Romans 921 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
The context is an illustration of the sovereignty of God over both his creation and his elective salvation. The illustration is obviously one that pictures God as a potter and all men as pots. In verse 21, it suggests that God chooses to make 2 different kinds of pots, one unto honor, and one unto dishonor. Let me post the full potter illustration...
Romans 920 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
In verse 21, the pots fitted for destruction are people that are not elect. Earlier in the context in verse 13, it mentions an individual who was not elected, Esau. The text speaks strongly and says God hated Esau. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. If you follow the flow of the context, Esau would be the kind of person that the potter makes into a vessel of destruction and wrath. The same would be true in the context of Pharaoh. In verse 17, Pharaoh is raise up to power in Egypt for the purpose of God showing his own glorious power.

Nevertheless, the verse, and the phrase that says we are all of the same lump is Romans 9:21 and the phrase "from the same lump."

 

[Deborah13]

Hello Deborah13,
When I spoke of "the same lump of clay" I was referring to
Romans 921 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
The context is an illustration of the sovereignty of God over both his creation and his elective salvation. The illustration is obviously one that pictures God as a potter and all men as pots. In verse 21, it suggests that God chooses to make 2 different kinds of pots, one unto honor, and one unto dishonor. Let me post the full potter illustration...
Romans 920 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
In verse 21, the pots fitted for destruction are people that are not elect. Earlier in the context in verse 13, it mentions an individual who was not elected, Esau. The text speaks strongly and says God hated Esau. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. If you follow the flow of the context, Esau would be the kind of person that the potter makes into a vessel of destruction and wrath. The same would be true in the context of Pharaoh. In verse 17, Pharaoh is raise up to power in Egypt for the purpose of God showing his own glorious power.

Nevertheless, the verse, and the phrase that says we are all of the same lump is Romans 9:21 and the phrase "from the same lump."

I know which verse, I told you what I see. That Jacob and Esau were from the same lump being twins. One for honor and one for dishonor.

But I sorry, I'm still not getting why you think that it is saying, that ALL men are from the same lump. That is my only question right now.

 

[mondar]

Joh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. KJV

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. NASB

This is what I believe this verse says.
Anyone who comes to Jesus, can't come without the Father drawing them.
Those that come, Jesus will raise them up on the last day.

I do not see it saying that,
All those the Father draws, Will come.

Jesus also said,
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. NASB

The only way I have so far been able to reconcile the two scriptures is, that before Jesus is lifted up the Father is doing the drawing, but after the cross, Jesus, He will do the drawing to Himself.

I have some thoughts on why this would be so, but I don't have the scriptures found yet. And I'm not particularly sure of my understanding. Things like the Kingdom being in Jesus' hands right now?

If I can speak to John 6:44 and john 12:32....
One must be more cautious with the vocabulary in John 12:32. The word "all" is not always intended to be a universal term which refers to each and every person that ever lived. Its a universal term which we use to refer to a limited group.
* We use the word "all" in a limited way "all the time." Well, not literally, we do walk around saying "all... all... all." We use other words. In fact many Chinese never use the term "all" because they speak Chinese. (My point is that meaning of a term like "all" is very dependent upon the context. So then, the question is what does Jesus mean when he proclaims that he will draw all men to the cross? In the context, the word "all" goes back to earlier verses.
John 1220 Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast: 21 these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
The word "all" is speaking of all kinds of men, both Greek and Hebrew. This does not mean each and every Greek and Hebrew, but all kinds of Greeks and Hebrews.

 

[Deborah13]

If I can speak to John 6:44 and john 12:32....
One must be more cautious with the vocabulary in John 12:32. The word "all" is not always intended to be a universal term which refers to each and every person that ever lived. Its a universal term which we use to refer to a limited group.
* We use the word "all" in a limited way "all the time." Well, not literally, we do walk around saying "all... all... all." We use other words. In fact many Chinese never use the term "all" because they speak Chinese. (My point is that meaning of a term like "all" is very dependent upon the context. So then, the question is what does Jesus mean when he proclaims that he will draw all men to the cross? In the context, the word "all" goes back to earlier verses.
John 1220 Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast: 21 these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
The word "all" is speaking of all kinds of men, both Greek and Hebrew. This does not mean each and every Greek and Hebrew, but all kinds of Greeks and Hebrews.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.
Because verse 20, says certain Greeks had gone to the temple, not all Greeks, that means in verse 32, Jesus doesn't mean all men, just certain men?

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Can you explain why John 6:44 says the Father draws and this verse says Jesus draws?
I already shared what I thought.

Blessings

 

[turnorburn]

allenwynne said:

God has the power, the privilege, and the right to decide who receives eternal life.
He has determined that it is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that we become elected.
He predestined this process before time began.

How does it work?
Romans 9:16;
"So it depends not on human will or exertion, But on God, who has mercy".

By God's grace, he has mercy on us.
We can turn to Jesus and be saved.
We become chosen.
This salvation was predestined for us.

God is great!

Comments?

I Peter 1:2 says:Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.



tob

 

[turnorburn]

Forgot to finish up..

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

tob

 

[Tristan]

I think we've reached the point where at least for some of you, with all due respect, we may not be able to continue discussing this. I refuse to believe that God or the scriptures are illogical. They should be able to stand up to any sort of scrutiny, whether that be rational, philosophical, or natural. What is God afraid of? What am I afraid of? Nothing. If what I believe doesn't stand up to outside scrutiny, I just won't believe it. My beliefs are tested in the crucible of debate with nonbelievers according to a set of reasonable standards in the universe God himself created. If you want "only" scripture (worshiping the Bible), you're talking to the wrong guy. I don't believe something blindly just because of man's interpretation of scripture. You can interpret whatever you want out of scripture. Many have done it before. Something needs to keep us honest with ourselves. I believe scripture is inspired by God, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing outside that can help us to understand it. God should stand up to the challenge. He's God after all, right?

There is something in this election discussion I don't like. I don't like that God just says "too bad" to some people. Too bad, you're not part of my elect. That doesn't sound Christlike at all. I don't see that in scripture. What I see in scripture is that salvation is for all and that God would like as many as possible to be saved. A desire by definition is something that may or may not come to pass. It's not "God ordained who was saved." There is no certainty in a desire. We choose to accept the death of Jesus as our salvation or not through the work of the Holy Spirit. Christ's death is for everyone, but that isn't to say that everyone gets it.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." -1 John 1:2

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." -Galatians 3:28+29

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." -Romans 10:12

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." -Colossians 3:11

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." -1 Timothy 2:5-6

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:6-8

Christ died for everyone. Many are called, few are chosen...and they are not chosen until the end, when everyone's acts and heart have been judged.

 

[turnorburn]

@ Tristan: Have you ever heard of The Shepherds Chapel?

tob

 

[Tristan]

Nope, and I have nothing to do with it. What is it, and how is it relevant?

 

[turnorburn]

The Shepherds Chapel is run by a man that takes scripture out of context, maybe one day someone will start a thread about it.

tob

 

[mondar]

Let me see if I understand you correctly.
Because verse 20, says certain Greeks had gone to the temple, not all Greeks, that means in verse 32, Jesus doesn't mean all men, just certain men?

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Can you explain why John 6:44 says the Father draws and this verse says Jesus draws?
I already shared what I thought.

Blessings

Deborah, I am not sure I understand the question. Why is it a problem for both the Father and Christ to draw men to Christ? In your mind is it permissible for only one or the other to draw? Actually, since the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration, I would include the Holy Spirit in this drawing also.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm starting to see election in a different light.
It is mentioned 51 times in the New Testament and "you must be born again" is only mentioned once.
It is worth studying and understanding.

Some questions still abound.
If Jesus came to save the whole world, then why did he choose to send some to hell before hand?
Now that doesn't make sense.
There seem to be conditions we have to abide by.
But if there are conditions then it doesn't seem to agree with what is being said is election.
In Acts 10:34-35 Peter says, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but excepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
This sounds like the door is open for anyone and we have to do something to qualify.

In Acts 13:48 the writer says, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed".
What does appointed mean?
From my studies it refers to those that "endure", who live the life, who walk the walk.
But should it mean something else?

There is more.
Can someone shed light on these questions first?

 

[Chopper]

I think we've reached the point where at least for some of you, with all due respect, we may not be able to continue discussing this. I refuse to believe that God or the scriptures are illogical. They should be able to stand up to any sort of scrutiny, whether that be rational, philosophical, or natural. What is God afraid of? What am I afraid of? Nothing. If what I believe doesn't stand up to outside scrutiny, I just won't believe it. My beliefs are tested in the crucible of debate with nonbelievers according to a set of reasonable standards in the universe God himself created. If you want "only" scripture (worshiping the Bible), you're talking to the wrong guy. I don't believe something blindly just because of man's interpretation of scripture. You can interpret whatever you want out of scripture. Many have done it before. Something needs to keep us honest with ourselves. I believe scripture is inspired by God, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing outside that can help us to understand it. God should stand up to the challenge. He's God after all, right?

There is something in this election discussion I don't like. I don't like that God just says "too bad" to some people. Too bad, you're not part of my elect. That doesn't sound Christlike at all. I don't see that in scripture. What I see in scripture is that salvation is for all and that God would like as many as possible to be saved. A desire by definition is something that may or may not come to pass. It's not "God ordained who was saved." There is no certainty in a desire. We choose to accept the death of Jesus as our salvation or not through the work of the Holy Spirit. Christ's death is for everyone, but that isn't to say that everyone gets it.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." -1 John 1:2

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." -Galatians 3:28+29

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." -Romans 10:12

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." -Colossians 3:11

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." -1 Timothy 2:5-6

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:6-8

Christ died for everyone. Many are called, few are chosen...and they are not chosen until the end, when everyone's acts and heart have been judged.

Tristan, Have you read my #79 post? I'm a little surprised that no one has challenged it, or commented on it. My theology explains both sides of this thread. The "elect" and the rest of mankind. I would like your opinion, please.

 

[Chopper]

I'm starting to see election in a different light.
It is mentioned 51 times in the New Testament and "you must be born again" is only mentioned once.
It is worth studying and understanding.

Some questions still abound.
If Jesus came to save the whole world, then why did he choose to send some to hell before hand?
Now that doesn't make sense.
There seem to be conditions we have to abide by.
But if there are conditions then it doesn't seem to agree with what is being said is election.
In Acts 10:34-35 Peter says, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but excepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
This sounds like the door is open for anyone and we have to do something to qualify.

In Acts 13:48 the writer says, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed".
What does appointed mean?
From my studies it refers to those that "endure", who live the life, who walk the walk.
But should it mean something else?

There is more.
Can someone shed light on these questions first?

Read post #79. Please comment.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Read post #79. Please comment.

Well Chopper, that's the same as your post #17.
I just don't see 2 groups of saved people in the Bible.

 

[Chopper]

Well Chopper, that's the same as your post #17.
I just don't see 2 groups of saved people in the Bible.

May God bless you, my friend, with the revelation that I have received through the Scriptures. In Galatians 1:15, 16, "but when he (God) who had set me apart before I was born (election) and who called me by his grace, (16) was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the gentiles" (general call). Allen, The argument that only those of God's choice before the foundations of the world would only be the ones to inherit eternal life, simply is not true. That is what we call "hyper Calvinism" and limits Salvation ONLY to the elect. The big question amongst most Christians is "what about the rest of mankind who are not the "elect"? You and I both know that someone has to have "free will". The "elect" does not have free will, they are chosen by God Almighty and does not fail to produce a small group of believers to represent Him in all generations. NOW, the elect is responsible to spread the Gospel to every living soul, because Jesus is not willing that any perish, right? SO, as the elect (evangelists, if you please) spread the Gospel to everyone, and they have a free will choice to accept Jesus or not. I see this as simple theology, but people, I think, are hung up on the theology of the elect and can't see God's solution for the masses.