What is Election?

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper, I hope you forgive me too.

Did you do or say something to offend me? I don't think so, but I forgive anyway.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, "determined council" could be interpreted as "deliberate plan".
In this case one can say that God chose this point in time for his plan to work without intervening with man's will.

Or maybe chose a point in time for his plan to work because he took man's will into account.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Or maybe chose a point in time for his plan to work because he took man's will into account.

Isn't that the same thing?

Did you do or say something to offend me? I don't think so, but I forgive anyway.

I'm always saying something Chopper, so if you can't find anything, then save it for my future account.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See post #2 here in this thread.

It lacks specifics.

Are you asking how election negates free will?

If you think it does, explain how it does. I don't think it does. God's big enough to take man's free will into account, like steering a rat around in a rat's maze of another's making, and knowing ahead of time how the rat will act in the maze. It may see big and powerful and great to just turn out robots of salvation, but how does that make God great? But a God who can accommodate man's will and still fulfill a grand plan of raising up a nation of obedient children, now that is great.

Or how election negates God's foreknowledge?

I believe God's omniscience is what gives the doctrine of election it's meaning.

IDK that.

Come on, I'm over fifty now and I don't want to have to look IDK up to see what it means.

I believe in God's predestination, God's election, God's foreknowledge AND man's freewill. I see no conflict with any if these doctrines. Now, when people start redefining any of these terms from how they are used Biblically, all kinds of conflicts creep in.

Well, I guess that's the break down between you and those of us reading this thread. I'm not sure that you've made it clear how you think the Bible defines these terms. Feel free to do that.

We all have our definitions of these terms. Now, which of us have definitions that are Biblically accurate and supportable, that is what we're debating here.

As for predestination and salvation:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved [past tense] us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,12 which is why I suffer as I do.

We know, Biblically, salvation is both now and in the future.

Does God's purpose in saving men have to mean men do not have free choice to be saved or not saved?

Does salvation by grace mean salvation does not have any component of man's willful participation in it? Some seem sure it can not, or else it wouldn't be grace, but a damnable work of man.

The grace of God found in Christ Jesus was devised before the ages began. Does this mean people are made believers and unbelievers by God's choice? If you believe that, connect the dots for me.

As for OSAS:

But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

Why does this have to mean that it's impossible for a person to stop trusting and relying on the forgiveness of God for salvation? Why does being convinced automatically mean I'll always want to be convinced? Especially when the Bible talks very directly to making sure you believe to the very end...as if it's possible to not do that.

Obviously if one believes that salvation is utterly and entirely up to God in that he makes people believers, and others unbelievers without any consideration of their free will to be either then you have to be OSAS. That's why I say it all comes down to what a person thinks faith (that is trusting) is. Is it something God does for you? Or is it something you do, albeit with the immensely gracious help of God to do that?

Somewhere along the line the church decided that the 'work' of faith itself, which Paul contrasts with all other righteous work to be justified by, was a part of the damnable works of self that can't justify. This basic misunderstanding, continually propagated in our churches generation to generation, has produced the 'do nothing because that would be works', OSAS church we have today who are sure James did not know what he was talking about when he said a faith that does not work is a faith that can not save.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm OSAS and I know it.
I don't doubt what God has put into my heart and I will never let go of it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm OSAS and I know it.
I don't doubt what God has put into my heart and I will never let go of it.

I'm pretty sure I will never let go of it either. That doesn't mean others are not as sure, or as dedicated to the grace God has given them as you and I are.

God's work in us now that we are saved is to grow our faith up into that which can and will persevere. I say with all humility that I think I'm there. But that doesn't mean all other believers have been brought to that point, too. That's what being built up in our faith is all about. It's about making sure we all grow up into and develop a faith that can endure and keep trusting in Christ's blood.

I know a person who spoke in tongues but who later did not agree with the demands of the faith and who apparently abandoned their faith because of that. It happens. Just because I'm pretty sure it won't happen to me doesn't mean others are at this point in their faith too.

 

[Butch5]

God has the power, the privilege, and the right to decide who receives eternal life.
He has determined that it is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that we become elected.
He predestined this process before time began.

How does it work?
Romans 9:16;
"So it depends not on human will or exertion, But on God, who has mercy".

By God's grace, he has mercy on us.
We can turn to Jesus and be saved.
We become chosen.
This salvation was predestined for us.

God is great!

Comments?

Hi Allen,

In Romans 9 Paul is not speaking of one being chosen over another for salvation. The passage is about God fulfilling His promise through the Jewish people.

 

[chessman]

.

God's big enough to take man's free will into account

But a God who can accommodate man's will and still fulfill a grand plan of raising up a nation of obedient children, now that is great.



I believe God's omniscience is what gives the doctrine of election it's meaning.

We know, Biblically, salvation is both now and in the future.
.

I pretty much agree with all of the above.


I counted eight other questions in your last post. Where's Bill Clinton's outgoing staff when I need them to steal your ? Key off your keyboard.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I pretty much agree with all of the above.


I counted eight other questions in your last post. Where's Bill Clinton's outgoing staff when I need them to steal your ? Key off your keyboard.

Well, I Wonder Which Way they Went.

(Maybe George W. knows.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Allen,

In Romans 9 Paul is not speaking of one being chosen over another for salvation. The passage is about God fulfilling His promise through the Jewish people.

Or perhaps TO the Jewish people(?) And how he chooses is on the basis of faith regardless of what man does toward that end.

Good answer, though.

 

[chessman]

God's work in us now that we are saved is to grow our faith up into that which can and will persevere.
.

. Now you're talking.

That's the same God that not only makes mazes, but rats, humans, planets, galaxies and universes. Oh, and tongues.

 

[chessman]

Well, I Wonder Which Way they Went.

(Maybe George W. knows.)

And to think, all this time I thought Gildna Radner stole them. Wearly?

 

[Butch5]

Or perhaps TO the Jewish people(?) And how he chooses is on the basis of faith regardless of what man does toward that end.

Good answer, though.

Or perhaps TO the Jewish people(?) And how he chooses is on the basis of faith regardless of what man does toward that end.


Good answer, though.

Hi Jethro,

The passage isn't about salvation, it's about the Jews. God made a promise to Abraham and in Romans 9 Paul is explaining how God had gone about fulfilling that promise. The chapter opens with Paul speaking of the Israelites.


KJV Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineththe adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of IsraelRom 9:1-7 KJV)

The rest of the Chapter is Paul explaining how God has fulfilled this promise. The choosing of one over another is not about salvation it's about God choosing one person through which He would fulfil the promise and rejecting others. Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn yet God chose Isaac through which He would fulfill the promise. Isaac was the child of promise, not Ishmael. Likewise God chose Jacob over Esau as He continued to bring the fulfilment of promise to it ultimate fulfilment in Christ. The promises to Abraham were that He would be the father of a great nation, He would be the father of many nations, He would personally inherit the land that God had promised him as an everlasting possession, and that all nations would be blessed through him. God later reiterated this promise to Isaac and Jacob.


4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen 17:4-8 KJV)

God also made the same promise to Isaac,

KJV Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Gen 26:1-5 KJV)


The promise to Jacob,


12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. (Gen 28:12-15 KJV)


The Jews understood that they were the seed of Abraham and as such were the heirs of these promises made to the fathers. However, Paul argues that it is not the Jews but rather the seed is Christ.


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)


Paul appeals to the grammar and points out that the promise was not to all of the physical offspring Abraham, but rather to one particular offspring of Abraham, and that one was Christ. It is through Christ the all of the nations of the world have been blessed. It is also through Christ that Abraham has become the father of many nations.

Continued...

 

[Butch5]

Another part of the promise was that Abraham himself would inherit that land as an eternal possession, yet Stephen says that Abraham never received any of it. That means for God to honor that promise Abraham must receive it at the resurrection. However, it is not Abraham alone who is going to receive that inheritance. Paul said,


6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(Gal 3:6-29 KJV)


The phrase "The blessing of Abraham" only appears twice in the Scriptures. It is here in Galatians 3 and in Genesis 28.


KJV Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)


The blessing of Abraham includes the inheritance of the land and Paul argues that this blessing come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. He says 'if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise.


It is this promise that Paul is addressing in Romans 9. He explains how God rejected Ishmael and chose Isaac, He rejected Esau and chose Jacob. This choosing was not choosing one to be saved and one to be lost; it was choosing those through whom God would fulfill this promise to Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

Or perhaps TO the Jewish people(?) And how he chooses is on the basis of faith regardless of what man does toward that end.

Good answer, though.

I don't think it's regardless of what man does as Jesus states that man's actions will determine his destiny in both Mathew 28, the sheep and the goats and also in John 5.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Allen,

In Romans 9 Paul is not speaking of one being chosen over another for salvation. The passage is about God fulfilling His promise through the Jewish people.

Thank you Butch for your input.
How you been?
If you agree or disagree with my OP, what verse (verses) would you use?

 

[Butch5]

Thank you Butch for your input.
How you been?
If you agree or disagree with my OP, what verse (verses) would you use?

Hi Allen,

I've been extremely busy lately so I haven't been on the forums. I agree with your premise, however, I would submit that Romans 9 is not addressing that issue. You said God decides who gets eternal life. I agree with this, however, I don't agree with the Calvinist's definition of this Idea. The Scriptures say that God grants repentance. Many Christians believe that simple saying the sinners prayer gives one immediate access to eternal life. That idea assumes that God automatically grants repentance, I'm not so sure about that.

 

[mondar]

The passage is about salvation. There are Jewish themes in the context to be sure, but the passage does speak about salvation.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul begins the passage with issues concerning salvation. He mentions the salvation of his "brethren" and "kinsman."

When Paul speaks of the covenents, the Abrahamic Covenant has stipulations concerning the gospel (Galatians 3:8) and has concepts of justification. So Paul mentions the "Covenants" in verse 4.

In Romans 9:6 you have two kinds of Israelites, the elect/saved Israelites, and the unbelieving nation as a while.

An important verse is of course verse 24.
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
The principle of individual salvific election applies not only to Israel, but also to the Gentiles. Verse 24 cannot be fit into the thesis that the election in verse 11 is all about Israel.

Also, the passage is related to Chapter 8....
Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
This passage is also obviously about subjects like election and justification. God's elect in verse 33 is the same group that is justified (saved). That leads into his discussion of individual election unto salvation in chapter 9.

 

[Butch5]

The passage is about salvation. There are Jewish themes in the context to be sure, but the passage does speak about salvation.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul begins the passage with issues concerning salvation. He mentions the salvation of his "brethren" and "kinsman."

When Paul speaks of the covenents, the Abrahamic Covenant has stipulations concerning the gospel (Galatians 3:8) and has concepts of justification. So Paul mentions the "Covenants" in verse 4.

In Romans 9:6 you have two kinds of Israelites, the elect/saved Israelites, and the unbelieving nation as a while.

An important verse is of course verse 24.
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
The principle of individual salvific election applies not only to Israel, but also to the Gentiles. Verse 24 cannot be fit into the thesis that the election in verse 11 is all about Israel.

Also, the passage is related to Chapter 8....
Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
This passage is also obviously about subjects like election and justification. God's elect in verse 33 is the same group that is justified (saved). That leads into his discussion of individual election unto salvation in chapter 9.

Hi Mondar,

The passage is not about God choosing who will be saved or individual election. If you follow Paul's argument he states plainly that Christ came concerning the promises made to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I've laid out what that promise is. The promise was not, I'm going to choose who will be saved, it was that Abraham would be the father of many nations and that through his Seed, all nations would be blessed. You make mention of the Gentiles. Am I correct in assuming that you understand the verse 24 as referring to the Christian Gentiles of Paul's day? If so. le me suggest another idea. God used Gentiles prior to Christ to fulfill the promise to Abraham. In Paul's argument he argues that the promise to Abraham is "not" to the physical seed of Abraham, but rather to Christ and those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed. To make his point he points out that God is also the God of the Gentiles and not the Jews only. Abraham was a Gentile, so was Isaac. God called both of these men and used them for his purpose.

This passage does not require the idea of individual election and I would argue that individual election is contrary to the context of what Paul is saying. Also, Keep in mind that from chapter 2 verse 17 through chapter 13 verse 11 Paul is addressing the Jewish believers at the church in Rome. It is in chapter 13 verse 11 that he turns his attention to the Gentiles. So, Romans 8 is addressed to the Jewish believers and as such should be understood from a Jewish perspective.

 

[chessman]

Hi Mondar,

The passage is not about God choosing who will be saved or individual election.
.

Why does this passage have to be about one or the other (individual salvation or chosen group)? Why not both? You might consider the other location in Scripture where Paul is on this subject he says:

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

All things!