What is Election?

[jasoncran]

Sorry, couldn't finish my post, had a errand to run. As I was saying, God does call with an irrestible calling, but the decision is up to that individual. Look at Jonah, he was called but refused. In the end he complied.

after a three days in his "sheol" aka belly of the fish and he already knew the lord but just was stubborn and hated the assyrians

 

[messengerofgod39]

By the grace of God, am an example of one of God's elect.

The bottom is the true gospel.

After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons. I found out that in them there is stealing, adultery, fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, jealousy, pride, using God's name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list. But if you are one of God’s elects and God gives you the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the permanent cure to boredom but it is only given to God’s elects who suffer the most in this world since they were physically born.





Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it's only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV, Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it's God's will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it's by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don't have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to “Is God’s words powerful? How do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Just so you know Jesus had to endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hell-Hellfire, which is extreme love and mercy. Read the bottom of what Jesus had to endure in Hell.

Lazarus and the rich man Luke 16:19-31

Extreme Dehydration, rich man begs for a drop of water.

Luke 16:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

A place of outer darkness Matthew 8:12

A place of no rest Revelation 14:11

A place of blackness and darkness forever Jude 13

A place where people are tormented with fire and brimstone Revelation 14:10

Extreme pain since you are in everlasting fire.


David Platt - Jesus Absorbed the Wrath of God



If Jesus didn’t die on the cross and endure Hell which is the punishment for sin, God would still be just in sending us all to Hell because we are all guilty of our sins. Remember TV, movies, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons. Just read the 10 commandments for a list. But God was willing to have some mercy, which we don’t deserve because we are all guilty of our sins. At least God was willing to have at least some mercy, better than no mercy at all.


Isaiah 1:9

King James Version (KJV)


9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant (God’s elects), we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.


Romans 9:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed (God’s elects), we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


If God didn’t chose anybody to be saved, God would still be just in sending us all to the lake of fire which we all deserve because we are all guilty of our sins. Be thankful that God was willing to have some undeserved mercy, which is better than no mercy at all.


It would help if someone can translate all of this into different languages like Spanish, Russian, French and more. Than I can spread the gospel on different social medias to people that speak these languages.


P.S don’t try to justify your sins or make excuses for your sins or find loopholes in the bible.


That’s about it.

Edited to remove links please read the TOS http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/terms-of-service/ reba

 

[jasoncran]

jesus didn't go to gehenna.nor sheol.

"thou shall not suffer thine HOLY one to see corruption in sheol" sheol is where the dead where.

 

[messengerofgod39]

If Jesus didn’t die on the cross and endure Hell which is the punishment for sin, God would still be just in sending us all to Hell because we are all guilty of our sins.

Read my whole post before, posting anything.

 

[ivdavid]

Jethro Bodine,

You've responded at length to my queries and statements. I appreciate that and would definitely want to continue discussing all those points - but I'm afraid I just cannot proceed without settling one absolutely fundamental tenet here.

No part of what God plans or does can be found Wrong, even when considered by itself. True/False?

False.

I really do hope you genuinely misunderstood what I've been asking here for you to have answered "False". And you've cited my beliefs, which you reject, to be the grounds of your saying so? But this question was posed to you as per your belief system, not mine. If you happened to believe "the sun is always bright" and I didn't - then when asked your belief on the premise, "the sun can never be dark" - you should be answering "True" - because that's what you believe. So according to your belief system, not mine - do you find any part of what God plans or does, even when considered by itself, to be Wrong or Unjust? And you state this -

But as it is, in his justice he sent an injustice he bore himself in the person of Jesus Christ into the world to right the injustice of what we suffer because of Adam.

God is never Unjust in anything He does or plans. Period. That should be our starting point - just like we start with God can never lie etc. - because questioning any of that corrupts His Holy nature. And since when did acts of Grace get termed Unjust acts - God willing His Son to be sacrificed and the Son willingly obeying, is all purely out of grace and hence is not unjust. Why are we even discussing this? When we say God is Just and Righteous - it obviously applies to His very nature which can never be unjust or unrighteous in any single thought, word or deed. When we say He is perfect in ALL His ways - how can He falter and corrupt this perfect nature in any unjust act, even if He restores balance and corrects such unjust acts later?

I think I do need closure on this before resuming our discussion on the various other points. Also, If somebody other than Jethro Bodine here is able to understand his beliefs on this particular point, please feel free to post or PM me with what I've missed.

 

[jasoncran]

show me where jesus was in hell?

"today you will be with me in paradise" was said to the theif who was believing jesus. if jesus went to hell then so did that thief. today is today is not?
I didn't say jesus didn't die on the cross, I said he didn't go into the sheol. that is the difference.

 

[gr8grace3]

By the grace of God, am an example of one of God's elect.

The bottom is the true gospel.

After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons. I found out that in them there is stealing, adultery, fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, jealousy, pride, using God's name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list. But if you are one of God’s elects and God gives you the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the permanent cure to boredom but it is only given to God’s elects who suffer the most in this world since they were physically born.

Go to the bottom website for a list of God’s elects sufferings since they were physically born.

http://spreadthegospel59.wordpress....s-powerful-how-do-we-receive-the-holy-spirit/


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it's only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV, Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it's God's will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it's by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don't have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to “Is God’s words powerful? How do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Just so you know Jesus had to endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hell-Hellfire, which is extreme love and mercy. Read the bottom of what Jesus had to endure in Hell.

Lazarus and the rich man Luke 16:19-31

Extreme Dehydration, rich man begs for a drop of water.

Luke 16:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

A place of outer darkness Matthew 8:12

A place of no rest Revelation 14:11

A place of blackness and darkness forever Jude 13

A place where people are tormented with fire and brimstone Revelation 14:10

Extreme pain since you are in everlasting fire.


David Platt - Jesus Absorbed the Wrath of God

If Jesus didn’t die on the cross and endure Hell which is the punishment for sin, God would still be just in sending us all to Hell because we are all guilty of our sins. Remember TV, movies, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons. Just read the 10 commandments for a list. But God was willing to have some mercy, which we don’t deserve because we are all guilty of our sins. At least God was willing to have at least some mercy, better than no mercy at all.


Isaiah 1:9

King James Version (KJV)


9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant (God’s elects), we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.


Romans 9:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed (God’s elects), we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


If God didn’t chose anybody to be saved, God would still be just in sending us all to the lake of fire which we all deserve because we are all guilty of our sins. Be thankful that God was willing to have some undeserved mercy, which is better than no mercy at all.


It would help if someone can translate all of this into different languages like Spanish, Russian, French and more. Than I can spread the gospel on different social medias to people that speak these languages.


P.S don’t try to justify your sins or make excuses for your sins or find loopholes in the bible.


That’s about it.

What would be worse?.....In Gods eyes.

watching a Sermon from a Lordship salvationist preacher and believing it? or.....

Watching Rambo and enjoying it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

some where eternal security will get mentioned then the fireworks tween the Calvinists, the calivinist light, and the arminists will begin.

Yes, lol. I've been wondering when it will be brought into the conversation because a person HAS to believe in eternal security if they also believe in predetermined salvation. But I hope predestination does not get pushed out of the way by that topic. Let's not go there.

 

[jasoncran]

election and this sort is one of those things I may have a different opinion on but Im not going to argue about it. I lean towards arminism. I do believe that god foreknew and we have a limited free will in that we can reject him or accept him. the reason I say limited is that god can override our will when he soo choses. if I want to sin, sometimes the sin cant be done because god for some reason has other plans and does indeed deal with us daily. other times he lets us sin and lets us deal with the seeds of that to chastise us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

election and this sort is one of those things I may have a different opinion on but Im not going to argue about it. I lean towards arminism. I do believe that god foreknew and we have a limited free will in that we can reject him or accept him. the reason I say limited is that god can override our will when he soo choses. if I want to sin, sometimes the sin cant be done because god for some reason has other plans and does indeed deal with us daily. other times he lets us sin and lets us deal with the seeds of that to chastise us.

What you are describing is the proverbial rat maze I've been talking about.

 

[jasoncran]

I know, that is why I like your position. its almost pointless to be that dogmatic as some are when we really don't know. but leave it to man to argue that much and separate over one of many grey areas that has no bearing on our walk.

 

[Chopper]

n whichI said I would post my position on election after I had reconsidered my Calvinist beliefs. I have evaluated most of the posts and found them to be lacking Scriptural backing. I have re-studied Calvin's theology, and frankly found it the best. I am a 4 point Calvinist. My theology is what the Scriptures clearly teach so I will post those Scriptures along with my own thoughts.

God's purpose of election and predestination of man is plainly owing to the mere pleasure and goodness of God that certain men of His choice would, before the foundation of the earth and before each person was born, God would choose them to be a part of His remnant to be reconciled to Him and thus predestined to offer Salvation to those He did not choose. Romans 11:5 says "There is a remnant, chosen by grace". A good verse to remember is Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable". What God speaks and desires, will happen!

I see the beginnings of election and predestination with Abraham. God chose one man out of many to establish a Nation who would represent the Almighty in His quest to establish a people after His own heart, and develope a line for the Messiah to come into this world. Unfortunately Israel chose to keep this establishment of God to themselves through selfish motives and pride.

Romans chapter nine gives a perfect picture of God's dealings with mankind. We clearly see that in v.11 "though they were not yet born and had nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls". In this chapter we see that God's foreknowledge did not play a part in His choice of Jacob and Esau, because the Scripture plainly says they had done neither good or bad. It also says that in order that God's purpose of election might continue. It was solely God's choice not mans. And that continues today. A remnant of God's followers are chosen in God, not man. God did not choose them because He looked into the future (as some of you do) and saw something in them that would prompt Him to choose. If that was to occur, God would see works and we all know that Salvation comes, not by works but by grace. Some argue that there has to be some activity in man, and that their election can't be just God's decission. Ever since the Law of Moses, people feel that they must contribute something to their Salvation, I have met some. Ephesians 1:5 says "He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will" And in Eph. 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose which He set forth in Christ". In John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him". Scripture proves that election and predestination has its origin in God only. Also Eph. 1:11 "having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will". The fulfillment of election and predestination is found in Col. 1:9 It reveals a prayer of Paul which describes this fulfillment, "that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will (what God expects His remnant to receive and pass on to those who were not chosen as part of the remnant) in all spiritual wisdome and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, bearing fruit in every good work and increase in the knowledge of God".

Some insist on man having a choice in the matter of Salvation. The remnant is eager to comply because God's offer is irrestible. Those to whom the remnant witnesses too, have a clear choice. A reminder of every man having a choice unhindered by anyone, it's not a pretty picture. From Adam to Noah, every man had a choice to either live for God or not. God must be tired of giving man a choice. In Genesis 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually". See what man does with free will? How about 1 Samuel 8:5 "Now appoint for us a KIng to judge us like all the nations". See what man does with free will? Man rejected God being their King and chooses a man to be King. The list could go on & on, you get the point.

Lastly, I think our main problem with this whole matter of election and a host of other Scriptural matters is, we tend to humanize God. We bring Him down to our level in our theology, when all the time He is saying, no, come up to my level....I'm so glad and thrilled that God did not give me a choice for my Salvation and entrance into His remnant. God reconciled me and through the Holy Spirit, have preached reconciliation for the past 30 years. No choice? PRAISE GOD, NO! Sorry about the beginning of my post, for some reason it didn't come out right.

 

[Chopper]

after a three days in his "sheol" aka belly of the fish and he already knew the lord but just was stubborn and hated the assyrians

Yep, just pointing out free will.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine,

You've responded at length to my queries and statements. I appreciate that and would definitely want to continue discussing all those points - but I'm afraid I just cannot proceed without settling one absolutely fundamental tenet here.


I really do hope you genuinely misunderstood what I've been asking here for you to have answered "False". And you've cited my beliefs, which you reject, to be the grounds of your saying so? But this question was posed to you as per your belief system, not mine. If you happened to believe "the sun is always bright" and I didn't - then when asked your belief on the premise, "the sun can never be dark" - you should be answering "True" - because that's what you believe. So according to your belief system, not mine - do you find any part of what God plans or does, even when considered by itself, to be Wrong or Unjust? And you state this -


God is never Unjust in anything He does or plans. Period. That should be our starting point - just like we start with God can never lie etc. - because questioning any of that corrupts His Holy nature. And since when did acts of Grace get termed Unjust acts - God willing His Son to be sacrificed and the Son willingly obeying, is all purely out of grace and hence is not unjust. Why are we even discussing this? When we say God is Just and Righteous - it obviously applies to His very nature which can never be unjust or unrighteous in any single thought, word or deed. When we say He is perfect in ALL His ways - how can He falter and corrupt this perfect nature in any unjust act, even if He restores balance and corrects such unjust acts later?

I think I do need closure on this before resuming our discussion on the various other points. Also, If somebody other than Jethro Bodine here is able to understand his beliefs on this particular point, please feel free to post or PM me with what I've missed.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer...
(Isaiah 53:8,10 NIV)

God himself calls what happened to Jesus an injustice. And he says it was his will that it happen. That doesn't make God unrighteous, or unjust. It means he uses injustice and wrong to fulfill his plans. But what you can't do is somehow make pre-programming most of mankind to not believe, apart from their own will, a part of a righteous plan that is somehow consistent with a God who is good, and righteous, and holy. Especially, as I've pointed out, that goes entirely against what the Bible says, that God wants all men to be saved.

Your doctrine says even though he says that (that he wants all men to be saved) he has actually crafted them to never be able to believe beyond their will to do anything about it and will go to hell, and that only a few people elected to salvation, apart from their own will, will be saved, entirely because God made them that way. The Bible simply does not support that interpretation of Paul's teaching about election and predestination.

 

[Chopper]

What he decreed was the existence of an entity called the church. That is the plan and purpose he has decreed. The confidence of which is based on the surety of the obedience of Jesus Christ, not us, but he surely knew ahead of time some would believe.

That's where God's confidence comes from, not from predetermining who will believe and who will not by purposely making them either an unbeliever, or an unbeliever of his own choice. You are reading way too much into the passage. And I can't help but to think it's because of how powerful the indoctrination of this subject is in the church today. That's not an insult. It's just that these teachings are so thoroughly entrenched in the church that's it's difficult to see this (and other subjects) any other way.

The predestination that Paul is talking about in verse 11 is the planned and predictable outcome of faith for those who have faith--according to the plan and purpose God himself proposed beforehand.



The context of this part of Romans is the difference between being justified by faith, and being justified by works. He's using Jacob and Esau to show that the promise is hardly dependent on what a person does, and showing that it depends on the calling of faith, apart from what you do. Exactly consistent with what he's been teaching in the letter up to that point.

God's purpose in election is that God saves people by the calling of faith, not by what they do. Election does not mean 'predetermined belief'. It means being chosen, and in context it means being chosen on the basis of faith, not on the basis of what you do. Jacob is a clear scriptural proof of this...especially to Jews who revere and honor the scriptures so highly.

What is predetermined, and which nobody can do anything about, is that it is only through the covenant of faith, not the covenant of law--a covenant of 'doing'--that a person is justified. He teaches this same truth using the similar analogy of Hagar and Sarah/ Ishmael and Isaac in Galatians 4. Again proving from the scriptures how salvation is, and always has been, by faith, not by works.

I challenge you to reread the Romans and Ephesians passages with this understanding in mind and doing what you said you want to do, laying aside the meanings and definitions of words and concepts and preconceived understandings you already have about this subject and looking at it afresh and unhindered.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What would be worse?.....In Gods eyes.

watching a Sermon from a Lordship salvationist preacher and believing it? or.....

Watching Rambo and enjoying it?

Depends on why you're watching it.

There's not a lot of difference between watching a Lordship Salvation message because you're using it (erroneously) to feed a works centered salvation belief, and watching a Rambo movie because it feeds an ungodly love and lust for anger, and revenge, and violence. Both will condemn you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep, just pointing out free will.

Dont' have time right now to read your last long post, but you are confusing me with this idea that man has free will to choose, but ultimately can only choose the way God intended for them to choose. That's not free will.

Irresistible will, as in 'I can't utltimately challenge God's will for my life in regard to salvation' is not free will. You're trying to have your cake and eat it to. Can't be done.

 

[jasoncran]

limited free will is what calving taught. and besides uhm the jews believe in a similar concept.they argued this stuff to.lol

 

[Jethro Bodine]

limited free will is what calving taught. and besides uhm the jews believe in a similar concept.they argued this stuff to.lol

I don't see how what Chopper is saying is even limited free will...except in regard to when your will finally caves in as pre-programmed by God to do so. That's not free will, IMO.

If there's one thing I've learned from talking to a lot of unbelievers...don't say irrational stuff. Even though the truths of the kingdom are secret and beyond the ways of the world, they still have to abide by basic rules of rationale. You can't have free will if, ultimately, God has pre-programmed your will apart from your consent. Even influencing it apart from your consent is still not free will. What do they say...something about a forced change of mind is still the same mind?

 

[jasoncran]

the argument is that we can do something and have a choice but god overrides our wills. that is why I said he does direct our lives. he does intervene and direct the losts lives as well. he did that in that sometimes I was doing things in ingnorance and stepped in at the right time and stopped it.