What is "GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS"

[Mitspa]

I agree again, but, as in Romans 10, the focus here in Romans 4 is on God's covenantal righteousness, not on a more general, vague sense of God's righteousness. Look at what Paul goes on to say a few breaths later in Romans 4:

Is this blessing then on [d]the circumcised, or on [e]the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.†10 How then was it credited? While he was [f]circumcised, or [g]uncircumcised? Not while [h]circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [j]he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which [k]he had while uncircumcised.13 For the promise to Abraham or to his [l]descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

This is all about issue of covenant! Paul is arguing that God's covenant all along did not really exclude Gentiles.

Again, a lot more could be said. But it is very compelling that, yet again, when Paul talks about matters of "righteousness", a discussion the covenant is not far away.

Co-incidence?

Do you understand the "The Gospel" is the revelation of the "New Covenant"?

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The revelation of the New Covenant is a revelation of Gods Righteousness

This is the "gospel"!

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It sounds as if you have separated these terms in your mind? But they are different terms used to describe the same overall will of God the Father concerning His Church.

 

[Adullam]

Rom 10:3



For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

When those who are in the "flesh" hear the term "righteousness" they always think of what THEY must do?

But a believer who is "spiritual" always thinks of what God has done by the WORK of Christ Jesus, One who walks by the Rightoeusness of God walks in the grace and power of God!

God's righteousness is the character of His holiness. Righteousness is good character. God's character is in holiness. No man can get anywhere near this holiness...except in Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

Rom 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This might help make the point?

 

[Mitspa]

God's righteousness is the character of His holiness. Righteousness is good character. God's character is in holiness. No man can get anywhere near this holiness...except in Christ.

Rom 8:9



But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10



And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11



But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make? But we who have His Spirit are "In Christ"


2Co 5:17



Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18



And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19



To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20



Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21



For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Adullam]

Rom 8:9



But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10



And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11



But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make? But we who have His Spirit are "In Christ"


2Co 5:17



Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18



And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19



To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20



Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21



For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So what is the righteousness of God?

 

[Drew]

Do you understand the "The Gospel" is the revelation of the "New Covenant"?

Indeed I do. But acknowledging this in no way challenges the position that when Paul uses the term "God's righteousness, he is usually referring to God's fidelity to His covenant.

It sounds as if you have separated these terms in your mind? But they are different terms used to describe the same overall will of God the Father concerning His Church.

Where is your case? Please explain precisely how believing that Paul uses the term "God's righteousness" to denote God's fidelity to the covenant in any way forces me to contradict the concepts of "gospel" and of "new covenant".

 

[Drew]

It sounds as if you have separated these terms in your mind? But they are different terms used to describe the same overall will of God the Father concerning His Church.

How do you explain that in both Romans 4 and Romans 10, the concept of "God's righteousness" comes up in the immediate vicinity of lengthy treatments of the covenant (see posts from earlier today)?

 

[Mitspa]

Indeed I do. But acknowledging this in no way challenges the position that when Paul uses the term "God's righteousness, he is usually referring to God's fidelity to His covenant

God is Faithful! but there is more to be revealed in the Gospel than Gods faithfulness! God is love, He is kind and patient, He is powerful, and full of wisdom,
He is Glory and light etc...
I think maybe because you are limited in understanding Gods Righteousness, You limit others and THE APOSTLE PAUL? To your definition?
The point is that His Righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, glory to glory!
As we behold His righteousness in the Face of Christ, we are changed! Thus we have scripture that pertains to growing unto the fullness of Christ, Grow in grace and knowledge etc...

 

[Drew]

God's righteousness is the character of His holiness. Righteousness is good character. God's character is in holiness. No man can get anywhere near this holiness...except in Christ.

I do not believe this is exactly how the concept is used by Paul. I have already shown how, in two cases at least, the term "God's righteousness comes up in the very immediate vicinity of a discussion of God's fidelity to His covenant.

I am, of course, not denying that God is holy in a general sense. But I am prepared to provide further arguments to the effect that Paul uses the term "God's righteousness in a specifically covenantal sense.

 

[Drew]

God is Faithful! but there is more to be revealed in the Gospel than Gods faithfulness! God is love, He is kind and patient, He is powerful, and full of wisdom,
He is Glory and light etc...

This is all true but entirely irrelevant to the matter at issue. I have shown that, in at least two cases, Paul appears to connect "God's righteousness" to the covenant.

Why are you not dealing with this? Do you think such connections are mere co-incidence?

I think maybe because you are limited in understanding Gods Righteousness, You limit others and THE APOSTLE PAUL? To your definition?

Surely you know that I have shown from Paul (not from me, from Paul) that the notion of "God's righteousness" appears in covenantal settings in at least two passages.

Do you deny this?

The point is that His Righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, glory to glory! As we behold His righteousness in the Face of Christ, we are changed! Thus we have scripture that pertains to growing unto the fullness of Christ, Grow in grace and knowledge etc...

How, and please be precise, does any of this challenge my assertion that Paul uses the term "God's righteousness" in a specifically covenantal sense?

 

[Mitspa]

So what is the righteousness of God?

Please read the post! but basically it is seen in Christ as we behold Him by faith!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

You may not be able to understand? but continue on in Gods grace and He will reveal Himself to you, through His Word!

 

[Drew]

Here is a reference from Romans 3 to God's righteousness:

But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?

What is Paul talking about in context? Let's see:

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.......

Yet again - for the third time now - it is clear that Paul is talking about the Jews and their special status (i.e. the covenant).

Is this again a coincidence?

I doubt it - Paul continually connects "God's righteousness" to the matter of the Jews and His covenant with them.

For Paul, at least, "God's righteousness" is specifically His fidelity to the covenant He has made with the nation of Israel.

 

[Adullam]

Please read the post! but basically it is seen in Christ as we behold Him by faith!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

You may not be able to understand? but continue on in Gods grace and He will reveal Himself to you, through His Word!

Explain God's righteousness without the verses. We all have bibles. Few actually understand righteousness.

 

[Mitspa]

This is all true but entirely irrelevant to the matter at issue. I have shown that, in at least two cases, Paul appears to connect "God's righteousness" to the covenant.

I have already shown that Gods Righteousness relates directly with the New Testament. Its not a separate issue!



2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What do think it means to be revealed from faith to faith? by the Gospel?
It must mean that it has to be seen by faith?

 

[Drew]

I have already shown that Gods Righteousness relates directly with the New Testament. Its not a separate issue!

I have never denied this.

Are you, or are you not challenging my assertion that, for Paul, the term "God's righteousness" is generally used to denote God's faithfulness to His covenant?

I find your postion unclear. No one is denying the truth of the gospel. But even when Paul talks about the gospel, he connects it specifically to Israel (and therefore to the covnenant which defines Israel:

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Mitspa]

Explain God's righteousness without the verses. We all have bibles. Few actually understand righteousness.

Well I always stick to the Word of God as much as possible, and I expect I will spend the rest of my life, learning of Who He is! But His Righteousness, no matter how little or how much I understand about it IS MINE!
As I grow in grace and knowledge I will understand more of What God HAS MADE ME

Now You say you understand His Righteousness? Why not add to the tread with your wisdom instead of asking questions about things "you say" you know?

 

[Mitspa]

I have never denied this.

Are you, or are you not challenging my assertion that, for Paul, the term "God's righteousness" is generally used to denote God's faithfulness to His covenant?

I find your postion unclear. No one is denying the truth of the gospel. But even when Paul talks about the gospel, he connects it specifically to Israel (and therefore to the covnenant which defines Israel:

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What do think it means to be revealed from faith to faith? by the Gospel?
It must mean that it has to be seen by faith? The understanding of Gods Righteousness Comes through faith!
What is your question? I do not understand what you want me to explain?
I do not accept your limited view based upon two scriptures! sorry

 

[Mitspa]

Rom 10:3



For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

When those who are in the "flesh" hear the term "righteousness" they always think of what THEY must do?

But a believer who is "spiritual" always thinks of what God has done by the WORK of Christ Jesus, One who walks by the Rightoeusness of God walks in the grace and power of God!

I think one can see how some are ignorant of Gods Righteousness which is by faith, from the recent post

 

[Drew]

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What do think it means to be revealed from faith to faith? by the Gospel?

It means that we respond to God's covenant faithfulness with faith of our own.

What is your question? I do not understand what you want me to explain?
I do not accept your limited view based upon two scriptures! sorry

I believe my question is quite clear: Are you, or are you not challenging my assertion that, for Paul, the term "God's righteousness" is generally used to denote God's faithfulness to His covenant?

And it is now three scriptures, not two. And you have not dealt with any of them.

So tell us: If you believe that Paul does not imbue the concept of "God's righteousness" with a covenantal dimension, do you then believe it is mere coincidence that in these three cases, references to the covenant appear cheek to jowl with reference to God's righteousness?

And I will shortly post yet a fourth text where covenant is connected to "God's righteousness"....

 

[Drew]

I think one can see how some are ignorant of Gods Righteousness which is by faith, from the recent post

Do you think the readers will say to themselves "well, since Mitspa is posting in big red letters, he must be right"?

I am not sure to whom you are referring to with this remark. But in case it is me, let me point out that I have posted three texts where "God's righteousness" comes up in a covenantal setting.

And you have essentiallly ignored these posts by not telling us how you explain the close connection between God's righteousness and covenant that is present in each case.