What is the 'mark' of a True Christian

[Biblereader]

Yes,

and just LOOK at ALL the WONDEROUS 'things' that they have DONE in the 'name of Christ'..........

MEC

I agree with you, Imagican. I just finished reading some deep books about the history of persecutions and torture, done by the CC. Burning at the stake, partially hanging someone, then castrating them and disemboweling them while they're STILL ALIVE.
That wasn't Jesus doing the torturing.

 

[Biblereader]

(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)

(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)

(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)

(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)

I have some questions, here!!
ONE: do you say that Christianity is on a par with one world religion? Excuse me if I misunderstand.
TWO: are you saying that soldiers are not being Christian, when they fight in a war?
THREE: if you're saying war is bad, and not Godly, then, wouldn't signing up for the draft be
acting against what you say about war?

 

[Free]

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thanks. :D

 

[GraceBwithU]

The Catholic Church boasts of numbers, which in itself is ridiculous way to prove their Christianity. But something that makes it even more ridiculous is the fact that they actually count these poor little infants that they baptize without a choice and often grow up to learn the truth.

I merely mention numbers to show you that most Christians don't believe as you do.

But numbers are not what makes the Church legitimate. Being a Catholic does not guarantee salvation. What makes the Church legitimate is the fact that Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). And among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The heretical protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The list of popes can be traced back to Peter himself, the first pope. Here is a list: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
Learn more at this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

Another question...I have found through research that The Catholic church claims to have been started around 33 A.D. by Jesus. (correct me if I'm wrong) If this is so? then which on of the seven churches that Jesus addressed to John in Rev is the Catholic Church. If this is truely a Chrurch that He started as the RCC proclaims, Why did He not even mention them? It seems only logical that A church that was founded by Jesus would not been left out in this address to John. The seven churches mentioned were in order along the accent highway. No mention of the RCC here, unless you count later when John sees the beast from the sea.

excuse me perhaps this was off the topic a bit...except that the seven churches were certainly marked in some way for Jesus to send messangers to them.

 

[mutzrein]

Well Mutz,

We've about beat the subject to 'death' to the point that it leaves little else to discuss other than what is posted by others.

I am not sure what you seek. Whether it be Election, grace, Spirit or fruit. But the ONLY thing that I am able to recogize so far as the MARK of a 'True Christian' is BEING 'born again' unto LIFE. HOW we are ABLE to recognize those that ARE is through their 'fruit of the Spirit'. And these that are recognizable are MANY. But even THEN many are STILL unable to discern the ACTUAL 'truth' of one that may APPEAR to bear fruit. For Satan himself is ABLE to disguise himself as an 'angel of light'. And we are given ample information that states that Christ IS The LIght offered by God to shine upon this darkened planet.

So, what IS the 'mark' that we are 'missing'?

MEC

MEC - you certainly HAVE NOT missed the 'mark'. Your first post indeed did hit it right on but I wanted to hear what others had to say for a bit - and it is interesting to see those perceptions. I do believe that everything else is indeed the fruit of the spirit which only STEMS from being born of the Spirit. So to me (as I think you will agree) the mark is indeed being 'born again'.

But this is only the first part of a topic that I want to continue to pursue. However for now, I'm happy to continue to discuss the 'mark' itself if anyone else has more to add.

 

[Free]

I disagree. I prefer to agree with what Christ said.

 

[mutzrein]

I disagree. I prefer to agree with what Christ said.

Good on you Free - that's what we're here to talk about. What was it Christ said?

 

[Righteousone]

Yes,

and just LOOK at ALL the WONDEROUS 'things' that they have DONE in the 'name of Christ'..........

MEC

I agree with you, Imagican. I just finished reading some deep books about the history of persecutions and torture, done by the CC. Burning at the stake, partially hanging someone, then castrating them and disemboweling them while they're STILL ALIVE.
That wasn't Jesus doing the torturing.

Well then you must also of read about all the killings that went on for centuries in England and all of Europe. The Protestants were convinced the pope was the anti-christ, which Luther taught.
In fact Luther also taught and believed that with the "peasant revolt" and the increase in lawlessness, he said to "Burn down the Jews homes and synagogues, grant them no safe passage". (such a lovely man).
In 1844 Protestants beseiged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols killing numerous Catholics b/c Catholics didn't want the KJV in public schools (loaded with errors).
In 1994, a Brazilian woman who was Catholic was beaten to death by two pastors because she refused to enter their Evangelical church. They dragged and beat her to death in front of her 10 year old daughter. (Lovely group).

 

[nadab]

(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)

(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)

(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)

(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)

I have some questions, here!!
ONE: do you say that Christianity is on a par with one world religion? Excuse me if I misunderstand.
TWO: are you saying that soldiers are not being Christian, when they fight in a war?
THREE: if you're saying war is bad, and not Godly, then, wouldn't signing up for the draft be
acting against what you say about war?

Hello Biblereader,
The Bible lays out the identifying marks of what a true Christian is. The thousands of religions that profess to be Christian can then see if these measure up to the high standard of a true Christian. One needs to remember that God sets the high measurement of a true Christian and not I nor anyone else.

The apostle Paul wrote that there is "one faith".(Eph 4:5) Hence, eventually, there will be only "one world religion". Paul further wrote that the true Christian would not be divided, but rather would "all speak in agreement and that there should not be divisions among you, but...be fitly united in the same mind and same line of thought."(1 Cor 1:10) Jesus said, at Matthew 12:25, that a "house divided against itself will not stand". Thus, being divided religiously does not measure up to the mark of a true Christian.

And as for soldiers being Christians, I will let history for the moment provide some insight into this.
In his book, The Rise of Christianity, E. W. Barnes says that "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.†(1947)
C. J. Cadoux, said: "It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.†(The Early Church and the World,1955)
N. Platt and M. J. Drummond wrote: "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers."(Our World Through the Ages, 1961)
Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., said in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew†(CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,â€â€our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.†(The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)
In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona†(XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,†Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.â€Ââ€â€The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.
Thus, early Christian history gives an insight as to the stand these took concerning the military. These recognized the meaning of Jesus' words to be "no part of the world."
This history can help ones to understand more clearly the "mark of a true Christian".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Maybe they didn't become soldiers because they did not want to serve a pagan emporer who would force them to burn sacrafices. That is different than fighting with honor for a Christian nation if the battle is just.

A battle to protect people from tyranny is not the same as imperial conquests. I would say that when we liberated France from the Nazis, that was a GOOD thing, wouldn't you?

 

[MarkT]

But the ONLY thing that I am able to recogize so far as the MARK of a 'True Christian' is BEING 'born again' unto LIFE. HOW we are ABLE to recognize those that ARE is through their 'fruit of the Spirit'. And these that are recognizable are MANY. But even THEN many are STILL unable to discern the ACTUAL 'truth' of one that may APPEAR to bear fruit. For Satan himself is ABLE to disguise himself as an 'angel of light'. And we are given ample information that states that Christ IS The LIght offered by God to shine upon this darkened planet.

So, what IS the 'mark' that we are 'missing'?

Jesus said, "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; Joh 15:26

True Christians worship God in Spirit and truth. That's how we know them. We look at what they say, not what they do so much, because we are all sinners so there's not much we can tell from what we see men do to tell them apart.

The Spirit, - 'even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.' Joh 14:17 - leads us to the truth. Christians know the truth and they speak the truth.

Everything is built on the truth. The church isn't built on Peter. It's built on the truth. When Jesus said the wise man is the one who builds on the rock, he was refering to the true words of God that he gave us. When he said the church is built on a rock, he was refering to the truth that was revealed to Peter; that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus said, 'But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.' John 4:23 And he said, "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24, and, "you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:32

But some men, when they hear the truth, will not believe it, because they cannot bear to hear it. This is why Jesus said, 'But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. John 8:45

Joh 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Like David said, 'O taste and see that the LORD is good! Happy is the man who takes refuge in him!' - in the Word of God! 'Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.' - the LORD builds our understanding. We take refuge in his Word. 'Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding.' - our understanding comes from God. Truly we are happy!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Jesus said, "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; John 15:26...

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. The context was Jesus speaking to the apostles, in regards to their upcoming mission. I believe this verse was telling the apostles that when they went forth to begin their mission to teach and baptise, the spirit of truth would guide them in their duties. This verse was not a guarantee to EVERY Christian that they would divinely understand God's truth, but rather a guarantee to the Church leaders tthat the spirit of truth would make sure they did their job without error.

 

[MarkT]

...Jesus said, "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; John 15:26...

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. The context was Jesus speaking to the apostles, in regards to their upcoming mission. I believe this verse was telling the apostles that when they went forth to begin their mission to teach and baptise, the spirit of truth would guide them in their duties. This verse was not a guarantee to EVERY Christian that they would divinely understand God's truth, but rather a guarantee to the Church leaders tthat the spirit of truth would make sure they did their job without error.

Jesus said, 'Many are called, few are chosen.' It appears that not everyone gets the understanding that comes from God. But to your point, Peter said, 'Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality' Acts 10:34 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. Acts 10:44,45

Why did Peter say, "the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning." Acts 11:15 And he said, "If the God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" Acts 11:17

John preached saying, 'after me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.' Mark 1:7

And so it is that after being baptized with water, we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Imagican]

...Jesus said, "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; John 15:26...

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. The context was Jesus speaking to the apostles, in regards to their upcoming mission. I believe this verse was telling the apostles that when they went forth to begin their mission to teach and baptise, the spirit of truth would guide them in their duties. This verse was not a guarantee to EVERY Christian that they would divinely understand God's truth, but rather a guarantee to the Church leaders tthat the spirit of truth would make sure they did their job without error.

Wow. Does this mean that there CAN BE Christians that DO NOT possess the Spirit of TRUTH?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Jesus said, "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; John 15:26...

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. The context was Jesus speaking to the apostles, in regards to their upcoming mission. I believe this verse was telling the apostles that when they went forth to begin their mission to teach and baptise, the spirit of truth would guide them in their duties. This verse was not a guarantee to EVERY Christian that they would divinely understand God's truth, but rather a guarantee to the Church leaders tthat the spirit of truth would make sure they did their job without error.

Wow. Does this mean that there CAN BE Christians that DO NOT possess the Spirit of TRUTH?
MEC

It means what Paul clarifies later in his epistles, that we all have DIFFERENT gifts of the Spirit. He also makes the analogy that we are different parts of the Body, a foot, a hand, etc. We do not all have the same job, so we have different gifts to do our special task. The apostles are teachers, so they really need that particular gift.

Besides: If we ALL had the gift of TRUTH, there would not be so many doctinal differences between those denominations, now would there. :D

 

[Vic C.]

Well then you must also of read about all the killings that went on for centuries in England and all of Europe. The Protestants were convinced the pope was the anti-christ, which Luther taught.
In fact Luther also taught and believed that with the "peasant revolt" and the increase in lawlessness, he said to "Burn down the Jews homes and synagogues, grant them no safe passage". (such a lovely man).
In 1844 Protestants beseiged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols killing numerous Catholics b/c Catholics didn't want the KJV in public schools (loaded with errors).
In 1994, a Brazilian woman who was Catholic was beaten to death by two pastors because she refused to enter their Evangelical church. They dragged and beat her to death in front of her 10 year old daughter. (Lovely group).

1- don't make this a KJV issue. CC and I and others are having a discussion on this very issue, if you care to join, but only if you behave yourself.

2- That's only a half-truth you told about Luther. I hope this isn't you doing what many RCs blame the Prots and others of doing. It's not very becoming to leave out all of it. Don't be so slanderous.

Here's all that Luther said concerning your "quote"

"I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians....

... But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God."

3- Don't make this an issue of the past transgressions of Prots, Catholics, etc. It doesn't, NONE of this, has anything to do with The Mark of a True Christian. Honestly, your "mark" hasn't been very true since you got here anyway. Plus, if you do want to go down this historical path of "who done who wrong", history IS NOT on your side.

# 3 goes for everyone. Lets not dredge up the past in this topic.


Now if we could PLEASE get back to something that appears to be on subject?

Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

It means what Paul clarifies later in his epistles, that we all have DIFFERENT gifts of the Spirit. He also makes the analogy that we are different parts of the Body, a foot, a hand, etc. We do not all have the same job, so we have different gifts to do our special task. The apostles are teachers, so they really need that particular gift.

Besides: If we ALL had the gift of TRUTH, there would not be so many doctinal differences between those denominations, now would there.

Vic,

I'm SURE you won't begrudge me replying to this ^.....?

CC,

We were told to SERVE in 'fear and trembling'.........

Now, if NOT for the Spirit of TRUTH being 'given to ALL' who are 'born again', then HOW are we to SERVE PERIOD?

And I agree 100 percent with your LAST statement. IF EVERYONE on this PLANET was 'given' the gift of TRUTH, then there would BE but ONE doctrine.

So therein lies the TRUTH of your statement. OBVIOUSLY there can BE ONLY ONE TRUTH. And that is in regards to ANY and ALL doctrines. Either a doctrine IS TRUTH or it is NOT. It CANNOT, nor WILL not Contradict ITSELF. It CAN'T.

So, the answer is NOT that ALL those that follow Christ are NOT given the 'gift of TRUTH', it's that MANY that PROFESS to FOLLOW Christ are simply attempting to FOOL themselves and/or fool others.

I find it awful dificult to believe that we have been PROMISED that 'if we ask, it will be GIVEN', 'if we SEEK, we shall find', yet you would offer that the ONLY way that this is truth is so long as a 'particular church' offers it. That God, through the Holy Spirit is NOT able to offer ALL that accept His Son and follow Their commandments the TRUTH WITHOUT the NEED for 'a particular church'. And NEVER forget that we have been outright TOLD; " That for those in which there is NOT 'truth' to be found in their hearts, then these DO NOT KNOW GOD". I could practically write a book that would contradict what you offered so far as TRUTH is concerned.

Are we ALL given a PERFECT understanding in TRUTH? NO WAY. For many their learning fell on different kinds of soil. Some are content with practically NO truth whatsoever. And these are basically baren of not only TRUTH, but Spirit as well, (and NO, I did NOT say 'spirit'). But we can be assured, and HAVE, that for those that ARE 'born again', the Spirit WILL convict them OF the TRUTH. ONLY if one is ABLE to harden their hearts are they ABLE to BE BLIND.

But there IS a 'problem' with MANY. For SOME insist that they KNOW that which they HAVEN'T a clue. Offering words out of their mouths for the simple sake of 'making noise to be heard'. Oblivious to the truth of their statements or even the ablility to CARE so long as SOMEONE appears to be listening to them.

MEC

 

[Free]

Good on you Free - that's what we're here to talk about. What was it Christ said?

What I stated in an earlier post:

Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.'
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

A mark is a visual indicator. In this case, the visual indicator that one is a Christian is by their love for other true Christians. Jesus' words indicate that the world has the right to judge whether someone is a Christian and that Jesus' claims are true based on the love and unity among true Christians.

Of course, as a side note which is not up for debate in this thread, this also implies that Christians have the right, and even the obligation, to distinguish the true Christian from those who merely claim to be Christian.

Anyway, it's all in a nice little book The Mark of the Christian by Francis Schaeffer.

 

[mutzrein]

Besides: If we ALL had the gift of TRUTH, there would not be so many doctinal differences between those denominations, now would there. :D

Perhaps - but I don’t believe you understand the significance of the birth of the Spirit within man.

EVERY person who is born again (born of the Spirit of God) has received the Gift of the Spirit – which is the gift of eternal life. It is the Holy Spirit that IS the Spirit of Truth. Truth itself is not A gift (or subset) of the Spirit as you seem to have described, but the underpinning principle of the OF the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Way to the Father, through whom ALL must come to receive, Eternal Life. And every person who receives this Eternal Life, is born of the Father. So EVERY person who is born again receives the Spirit of Life (which is the Spirit of Truth) and the Spirit will therefore lead them into ALL truth.

Yes, those of us who are born of the Spirit, have been given diverse gifts by the same Holy Spirit. But we ALL have the same Spirit (of Truth). Some of us have a gift of teaching, some of exhortation, some of healing, some of working of miracles, some of prophecy, some of tongues etc. While we all work together as one body, it is the Spirit which unites. It is the Spirit within us that produces the fruit of the Spirit. This is the same Spirit that Christ was born of. It is the same Spirit that raised him from the dead. And it is the same Spirit of which Christ spoke to his disciples that had been WITH them but soon would be IN them. And it is the Spirit of truth within us that now testifies to the same Spirit that dwells within another. And it is through this Spirit that God communes with man and man with God.

So the mark of a Christian is to be born of the Spirit. And those who are, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit - as Free has pointed out.

 

[Free]

So the mark of a Christian is to be born of the Spirit. And those who are, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit - as Free has pointed out.

That's not exactly what I pointed out. This is why I asked for clarification earlier as to what was originally meant by "mark". Is this a visual mark that distinguishes a Christian from non-Christians? If so, it cannot be merely "born of the Spirit".