• CFN has a new look, using the Eagle as our theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • CFN welcomes a new contributing member!

    Please welcome Beetow to our Christian community.

    Blessings in Christ, and we pray you enjoy being a member here

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

What is the point of the New Testament?

In no way is the water that brings a curse designed to initiate an abortion.

I have to disagree with you on this one. This passage has been examined and re-examined during the 19th and 20th Centuries by many scholars and theologians. One problem is that the passage itself has been altered and re-phrased many, MANY times over the years, as many passages in the Bible have been. The core remains the same but the phrasing is usually edited to ‘clear away’ any confusion, usually leaning towards the interpretation the editor wants to present.

If we read Numbers 5:21-22 there are a few translations.

In the NKJVB:
Then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.” Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”

NAS:
(Then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people by the LORD’S making your thigh waste away and your abdomen swell; and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

However, in NIV:
Here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”


NLT:
At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, “May the people know that the LORD’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel and your abdomen to swell. Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.” And the woman will be required to say, “Yes, let it be so.”

So as you see, the test of the Ordeal of the Bitter Water was definitely meant to test a woman’s faithfulness to her husband and carried with it a threat of disfigurement or worse should she be found guilty. Personally, I don’t think mixing dirt, spit and holy water would have had any effect on a woman, but that’s just me. We’re not here to discuss alchemy, after all.

The vast majority of English translations seem to speak of the woman undergoing some sort of disfigurement if she were guilty. Her thigh would waste away, and her abdomen would swell. We checked over a dozen Bible versions, and only two versions specifically mention a miscarriage in place of the thigh wasting away. The NRSV speaks of the “womb discharging,” and the 2011 update of the NIV states that her womb would “miscarry”—the 1984 edition matches the other versions mentioned above. The NCV offers a different understanding from the rest by stating that God would make her “body unable to give birth to another baby.” ((https://answersingenesis.org/))

~sigh~ In the end, for me personally, it comes down to this: If your religious beliefs are such that these things go against what you have been taught or believe, then it is your privilege and spiritual responsibility to vote in favor of or against laws that clash with your dogmatic principles. I am behind that 100%. I don’t think ANYONE who votes against women’s rights, LGQBT rights or what have you is wrong if their belief structure is one that insists these are sins.

My only argument is when people attempt to push their beliefs upon others in cruelty or pride. You can vote ‘no’ on any law which would strengthen these rights but you have no authority, moral or otherwise, to actively condemn, harass or, even worse, physically abuse someone that supports beliefs contrary to your own.

((please keep in mind I am using a royal “you” and not pointing fingers at anyone specifically))

However, I think we are beginning to stray away from the original topic of “what is the point of the New Testament?” I am still confused on how someone can be a Christian and refuse to follow the teachings of Christ. I raised this with another group and was told, bluntly, that ’we don’t have to follow the parables or anything out of the New Testament. We just have to love Jesus!’

The OT and NT are nearly perfect opposites in terms of teachings. One focuses on wrath and war, death and destruction whereas the other focuses on peace and love, acceptance above all. I can not fathom how one can simple decide which one they’ll follow on a whim, or pick and choose the passages from each to use as justification for their personal beliefs and fears.
 
I don’t fully understand this. God says ‘do not kill’ but then orders His followers to do just that, to kill men, women and children because their naughty.
Naughty? No, they weren't just naughty. They commited and approved very grievous sin And God's just penalty for that is death. But that is a just judgement that only He can make, not us.
 
Naughty? No, they weren't just naughty. They committed and approved very grievous sin And God's just penalty for that is death. But that is a just judgement that only He can make, not us.

From what I understand, the Canaanites were slaughtered because they practiced such things as child sacrifice, incest, adultery, temple prostitution, and various other horrible acts..

That being said, God did demand Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac. Of course, God give him a 'J/K lol' before the deed was done, but the fact still remains that Abraham would have done so without hesitation. However, Abraham wasn't punished for this, but rather rewarded with a promise: I, the Lord, promise that I will surely bless you and give you as many descendants as the stars in the sky. There will be as many people as sand on the seashore. And your people will live in cities that they will take from their enemies. Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

The fact that Abraham did NOT sacrifice his son is irrelevant. The fact that he would have done so unquestioningly is the case here.

Seems a little hypocritical to me...

Incest? Exodus 6:20. Amram took as his wife Jochebed his father's sister, and she bore him Aaron and Moses, the years of the life of Amram being 137 years.

Genesis 19:30-36. Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”

Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father.


Temple prostitution? That depends on the interpretation. For me it is the very reason Jesus overturned the moneychanger's booths in the Temple. The Rabbis and Priests were literally selling favors for God. Yet they were allowed to do so for quite some time without a call to be murdered.

I know we as human beings always find justification for murder. War, race, territories... can we not just admit we are bloodthirsty by nature without bringing God in to it as some sort of calling, or at least admit that the OT God is just as capable of sin as we, His creation, are?
 
I was asked to leave and find another church.
Did you find another church ? I think your former pastor gave you good advice , at least this one time .
 
Did you find another church ? I think your former pastor gave you good advice , at least this one time .
Heh. No. I went to quite a few but they all preached a different shade of the same. So I started studying on my own.
 
The Bible has been used MULTIPLE TIMES as an excuse to preach hatred and bigotry.
Atheism has been used MULTIPLE TIMES as an excuse to preach hatred and bigotry. The whole of the slavery matter was grounded in atheism, that is, the genetic superiority of some races over others, and backed by science at the time.
The following examples are from Rev. Connie Regener, a student at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena.

“Racism was preached from the pulpit during the Civil War when denominational leaders argued from Scripture that slavery was God’s will. Today, descendants of those same religious leaders are preaching that sexism is God’s will (Southern Baptist Convention decision, June 2000).”
And yet the Christians in England defeated slavery precisely on the basis of God creating all men equal. The Christians in America were unsuccessful.
As I understand it, one of the earlier (yet recent) examples of twisting the interpretation of the Bible to impose bigotry is the Mark of Cain. As an outsider to religion, it is clear that the story of Cain being punished for committing the first murder of his brother Abel is that God curses Cain so that no crop he sows can ever be reaped; that any grain he plants will die and wither. A ‘black mark’. Yet there are those today in (thankfully) smaller communities that still hold onto the interpretation that this means he was literally turned Black and that’s why we should hate Black people.
As I understand it, evolutionary biology was used to say that black people were genetically inferior to the point where some said they weren't really humans at all. Evolution was a very strong undergirding for slavery. (You ought to know that slaves in human history were also white. The term "slaves" comes from the Slavic people being forced into servitude....not Africans but Europeans.
Obviously this is nonsense, but never underestimate a person’s wilful ignorance in interpretating Scripture for their own personal gain.
Same with science. Never underestimate a scientist's willful ignorance in interpreting science for their own personal chosen position. You see, what you attribute to scripture is really the sinful mind of man.
” If I Timothy 2:11-12 is interpreted as an absolute prohibition on women teaching and exercising authority in the church, then it would be a de facto elimination of women from using their God-given minds, talents and spiritual gifts. Likewise, I would have to be biblically illiterate to believe that when Paul calls for women to “keep silent,” he is referring to verbal silence,”

Misogyny in the church. Most of us know better these days than to take this at face value, but there are still some who demand this is true.
Women in those days were not educated to read or write. That limits their knowledge. Women were prophets and they led armies in battle, they saved the nation, they were praised. They were never property. They were never to be sold. God hated it when men divorced their wives. You need to read other verses, but find me an example in other religious writings of women leading the nation (Deborah) or saving the nation (Esther and Rahab) and so honored.
These are merely two examples of what can be considered bigotry in the Bible. Of course, it all comes down to interpretation. Ephesians 6:5 was used by many in the early days of the US as proof slavery was A-ok with God. Just ask Thomas Jefferson…
Well, if they had read on (Jefferson was not a Christian but a deist so you need a different example) and read "do to others as you would like to have done to you" and tried to lived it, unless they themselves would have liked to be slaves, they would had to make a different domestic help choice.

Again, I offer you the English Christian Wilberforce who worked tirelessly to end slavery in the UK. He did so soley because he was a Christian. Not a single atheist worked to end slavery.

What you want to attribute to the Bible is actually because man can be quite evil and any excuse will do. As I said, evolutionary theory was very useful for bigots. "Certain races simply are less evolved," was their view and their science helped.
I am not 100% certain what you’re saying here. Are you insisting that diseases like Aids/HIV are higher in the LGQBT community than others, and this leads to suicide, hence ‘don’t be gay’?
No, I am quoting statistics that cite that homosexual people are at higher risk in those areas. That is all. I am not drawing that conclusion.
While it is indeed true that suicide is the second leading cause of death among youths aged 10-24 in the community, studies show it is bullying, abuse, and the passing of discriminatory laws which lead to depression, drug use and eventually suicide.
You need to cite the studies because what I have read had nothing to do with the surrounding response to that lifestyle. There are not studies on trans who reported high incidence of depression after transitioning that had nothing to do with others. Bullying is experienced by many children and has no connection to that. Same with abuse. It is a false excuse. And what discriminatory laws are you talking about? They can marry and adopt children in most western nations. They can openly parade as homosexual to even being butt naked. Where is this abuse or discrimination you speak of?
In areas where such laws are overturned and/or precented, the rate drops dramatically.
I want a study on that because I heard that suicide is up on all levels and those laws were passed years ago.
Bigotry is a hatred or intense dislike for others who are different. Hatred is spawned from fear. Fear always stems from ignorance. It’s not that difficult to draw the line between the dots.
Christians know about this and quite a bit. We are on the wrong end of bigotry and hatred and intense dislike and it is increasing. Still we don't commit suicide in numbers.
As for the ‘who?’ question, in the US alone:
You need to site those bills because what I know is they are not "targeting trans people" but a response to the growing number of people who "transitioned" only to realize their lives were ruined and want to prevent others but blindly being lied to about "transitioning solving all their problems." There are people who think minors ought not to be able to choose to have their genitals mutilated.
I don’t fully understand this. God says ‘do not kill’ but then orders His followers to do just that, to kill men, women and children because their naughty. That doesn’t sound like a benevolent God to me. He sounds cruel. I won’t even get into the cruelty of Poor Abraham being told to murder his own son, or Job who had everything in life violently taken from him on a wager. A wager that, if He is indeed omniscient, already knew the outcome of but had to prove Himself before Satan?
First, you decide to down grade "evil" to "naughty" which shows a prejudice. The law is "do not murder" and killing in war is never murder by the definition of God or man. One of those nations snuck up behind the Israelies as they marched and slaughtered the pregnant women and small children who were at the back...defenseless. These were not honorable people you'd want as neighbors.

end of part 1
 
Last edited:
I am genuinely interested in a conversation, if not debate, on this matter.

What is the point of the New Testament?​

Same as the Old Testament:

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
Sure.

-Abiding Truth Ministries, Springfield, Mass. serves mainly as a launching pad for an international anti-gay campaign. Its founder, Scott Lively, is also responsible for a book, widely cited by gay-bashers, accusing homosexuals of running the Nazi Party.
I want to hear the details of this so-called "anti-gay" campaign. You change the description to paint a picture that you want to have. If you want answers you need to restrain yourself to being honest in your choice of words. There are those who are trying to prevent homosexuals from getting to the children and against the wishes of parents.
-American Family Association. Methodist minister Donald E. Wildmon formed the National Federation for Decency in 1977, changing its name to the American Family Association in 1988. Wildmon was widely denounced as an anti-Semite after suggesting that Jews control the media, which the AFA says “shows a genuine hostility towards Christians.”
Please provide quotes from the man, not those who hate him (and we all know where hate comes from.) The strategy of calling christians nasty names is well known.
-Americans for Truth About Homosexuality was formed as a part-time venture in 1996 by long-time gay-basher Peter LaBarbera, who reorganized it in 2006 as a much more serious and influential, if often vicious, operation.
More name calling. You going to believe the bigot who hate christians and calls them names? You are never going to arrive at understanding christians if you believe those who hate them.
-American Vision: Led since 1986 by Gary DeMar, American Vision is one of the primary exponents of the doctrine of “Christian Reconstruction” — the idea that the U.S. was founded as a “Christian nation” and that its democracy should be replaced with a theocratic government based on Old Testament law. As a practical matter, that means American Vision, which describes its goal as “restor[ing] America’s Biblical foundation,” backs the death penalty for practicing homosexuals.
You need to provide quotes from these people and not reports by those who hate them.
I can go on if you prefer.
Provide what they say. Although you need to know that I can provide quotes from those in the homosexual community who say "sex after 8, too late" which tells us something (and is a quote) or "we're here, we're queer and we're coming for your CHILDREN" which is also a quote. These quotes tell us WHY some Christians are alarmed at that community which if you listen to them, are far from innocently demanding "live and let live."
 
Dorothy Mae - a lot to unpack here.

It is true that 'science' was (mis)used as a means to convince others that there were inferior races to Whites. It is also true that not all who claim to be Christian act in a way contrary to core Christian beliefs such as love, tolerance, etc. This unfortunately proves nothing. We know that tobacco causes cancer but for decades cigarettes were promoted as healthy, that there was no correlation between smoking and cancer. We also know that these studies were paid for by the Tobacco companies in order to continue selling cigarettes.

Evolution teaches not that certain people are inferior to others. It never touches this at all because most, if not all sane scientists know that it's utter bollocks. This won't stop some, even today, from clinging on to archaic beliefs that support these ridiculous theories.

The very same can be said of those who select certain passages of the Bible which support their own personal beliefs. Especially when passages talk about slave ownership. Our Founding Fathers, sadly, used this justify owning slaves. Plenty of good-natured American Christians fought against this as well. It is not unique to Europe.

It all comes down to interpretation. As it seems everything does....
 
Same as the Old Testament:

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Correction? Isn't it a mortal sin to amend the Word of God?

And sorry, this doesn't make sense as the two Testaments contradict one another quite often.
 
Dorothy Mae - a lot to unpack here.

It is true that 'science' was (mis)used as a means to convince others that there were inferior races to Whites. It is also true that not all who claim to be Christian act in a way contrary to core Christian beliefs such as love, tolerance, etc. This unfortunately proves nothing. We know that tobacco causes cancer but for decades cigarettes were promoted as healthy, that there was no correlation between smoking and cancer. We also know that these studies were paid for by the Tobacco companies in order to continue selling cigarettes.
It shows that the problem is the human heart, not the scriptures nor real science. I got the impression you blame Scripture.

“Misuse” is probably more accurately rendered “ignore inconvenient parts of” both for science and scripture.
Evolution teaches not that certain people are inferior to others.
Well, the original title of the Origin of the Species” includes the struggle for survival in favored races.
It never touches this at all because most, if not all sane scientists know that it's utter bollocks. This won't stop some, even today, from clinging on to archaic beliefs that support these ridiculous theories.
It cannot be refuted from Evolution. Racism can be rejected for personal reasons.
The very same can be said of those who select certain passages of the Bible which support their own personal beliefs.
No it cannot. Evolution offers no reason for treating all races equally and could support not doing so since there are obvious genetic differences. Evolution is based on the struggle for survival, that is, one set is inferior, That’s the foundation.
Especially when passages talk about slave ownership.
Well it doesn’t encourage it. Should they have ignored this institution? It was how the whole of the Roman world functioned. And in fact, it warns masters to treat their servants as they’d like to be treated.
Our Founding Fathers, sadly, used this justify owning slaves.
They were deists. They weren’t christians. If they’d been atheists 100 years later they’d have employed evolution and that fits better. There’s no injunction to treat others well at all.
Plenty of good-natured American Christians fought against this as well. It is not unique to Europe.
They didn’t succeed. It wasn’t that important to the Yanks. The Brits eliminated slavery sans war. That says something.
It all comes down to interpretation. As it seems everything does....
No, it comes down to deciding if you want the wrong desires in you to have mastery or if you want God’s ways to have mastery. Scripture is useful for the latter. Anything lie is useful for the former.
 
Correction? Isn't it a mortal sin to amend the Word of God?

And sorry, this doesn't make sense as the two Testaments contradict one another quite often.
Where? Can you be specific? I’ve found it’s usually a lack of understanding the complexities of culture.
 
Correction? Isn't it a mortal sin to amend the Word of God?
Correction is applied to our lives…that our wrong choices need correcting.
And sorry, this doesn't make sense as the two Testaments contradict one another quite often.
I will admit that much of understanding the scripture seems to be hidden from some eyes. I don’t really understand this since it’s obvious to me, but I accept as true.

Derek Prince (Cambridge educated man) tells of reading the Bible and not understanding it until the Holy Spirit transformed his life and then he understood those same passages.

I say I don’t understand this because I find scripture so reasonable. You complain about the OT but you know, God told them that if they found a tool or animal lost by a neighbor, they were to try to ascertain who it belongs to. No only do not steal or even let jealousy grow but no “finders keepers” rule. I find that amazing.
 
Where? Can you be specific? I’ve found it’s usually a lack of understanding the complexities of culture.

There are many discussions and debates going back and forth about 'does the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian New Testament contradict each other?' Far more than I care to list here. It is an age-old debate and one I do not think will be resolved any time soon.

As far as editing the Bible, Deut. 4:2 spells it out pretty clearly. 'Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Despite this, we know the Bible has been edited through translation and modified throughout the centuries under the guise of 'making the Scripture more clear for newer generations'. Which, on the surface, is great. However, as a few conversations above can attest, it has also been modified and edited to lean in a particular direction more aligned with the editor's own beliefs.

All of that aside, I have come to the conclusion that my original question is still valid, although perhaps needs a little refining of its own. I feel it falls more in line with the theological position as presented by the New Covenant Theology, or NCT, recently expressed Christian theological view of redemptive history that claims that all Old Covenant laws have been cancelled in favor of the Law of Christ or New Covenant law of the New Testament. This can be summarized as the ethical expectation found in the New Testament. The NCT claims that all Old Covenant laws have been fulfilled by Christ and are thus cancelled or abrogated in favor of the Law of Christ or New Covenant law. This can be summarized as the ethical expectation found in the New Testament.

Of course, more established theological bases, such as Catholicism, will argue the opposite; that the NT is, indeed, a fulfillment of the promise made in the OT but does not cancel the older for the new. We know that Jesus was Jewish and followed/taught the Torah. In fact, in Matthew 5:19 Jesus demands of His followers to adhere to and teach the Commandments of the Torah. This makes perfect sense given that the New Testament wasn't written until after His death. How could He teach from a book that hadn't been yet written?

That being said, Jesus also calls his followers to follow HIS teachings, not those of the scribes and pharisees. If we consider this, then isn't the NT a collection of His teachings for all who worship in His name to follow?

It's like an ouroboros that just keeps going 'round and 'round.

Perhaps my question is better asked "As a Christian are we expected to follow the Teachings of The Christ in favor of the old teachings when they contradict?" and if we don't, can one truly call themselves a Christian at all?
 
I say I don’t understand this because I find scripture so reasonable. You complain about the OT but you know, God told them that if they found a tool or animal lost by a neighbor, they were to try to ascertain who it belongs to. No only do not steal or even let jealousy grow but no “finders keepers” rule. I find that amazing.

I don't think everything in the OT is "bad". The Ten Commandment's are a pretty good list of things to do in order to be a better Human Being. That being said, I think we have to understand a lot of the OT are epic stories of good v evil, God's triumph over the Devil and a warning to those who decide not to follow the path. Epic stories that were once passed from generation to generation via the spoken word to keep a tribe or group of people both entertained and terrified. Terrified of doing the wrong thing. One day someone somewhere decided to start writing these stories down to share with other tribes, other cities and other people. Stories which sounded familiar to each who heard them, but had a slightly different take on them due to the distance between tribes and the spoken word travelling through generations.

These stories grew bigger and more entertaining (and more terrifying) as decades or centuries went on and a single collection was bound, translated from several different languages into one, and shared in temples everywhere. Insisting that the OT is bad in its depiction of violence, murder, fire, etc. is as ludicrous as insisting Homer's Odyssey and Iliad are bad, the epic poem Beowulf or most books written today. Each have a hero with his or her own obstacles to overcome and monsters to face. Each fight valiantly for what's "right' and each protagonist is usually a 'chosen one'. More importantly, each establish a set of morals to follow, complete with rewards for doing so and punishments for refusing them.

I believe I said in the beginning that religious belief, when used to bring communities together in a sense of family, acceptance and love is a beautiful thing. One I have no ill feelings towards at all. Unfortunately, some would use or abuse a person's faith to achieve their own goals or agendas, twisting a believer's mind away from those sentiments of love and harmony into something akin to hatred and bigotry. How many times have we heard of religious parents turning their back on their own children because they came out as gay or trans? How many of these kids have committed suicide because the people who are supposed to love them no matter what refused to do so because of what they were taught in church?


Scripture *can* be reasonable and straightforward. DO NOT KILL. DO NOT STEAL. DO NOT LIE... however, most of the writings are so subject to interpretation that anyone with an ounce of charisma and presence can manipulate these interpretations into something downright evil.
 
There are many discussions and debates going back and forth about 'does the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian New Testament contradict each other?' Far more than I care to list here. It is an age-old debate and one I do not think will be resolved any time soon.
Well, you know that this is the weakest of answers, right? So the claim that they don’t contradict remains unchallenged.
As far as editing the Bible, Deut. 4:2 spells it out pretty clearly. 'Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Ok, so what’s the problem?
Despite this, we know the Bible has been edited through translation and modified throughout the centuries under the guise of 'making the Scripture more clear for newer generations'.
Well, first, translations are not editing. I have edited and I have translated and they aren’t close. In editing you improve the presentation of ideas in one language and in translation to leave the ideas as stated. You need to drop the “changes over time” because translators use the original language bible, not adjust the latest translation. They all go back to the source.
Which, on the surface, is great. However, as a few conversations above can attest, it has also been modified and edited to lean in a particular direction more aligned with the editor's own beliefs.
Unfortunately this is true in modern translations. The fear of the Lord is absent in many christians and so they have no problem changing things to fit their personal theology. The Greek (or Hebrew) are still available so one can see this clearly.
All of that aside, I have come to the conclusion that my original question is still valid, although perhaps needs a little refining of its own. I feel it falls more in line with the theological position as presented by the New Covenant Theology, or NCT, recently expressed Christian theological view of redemptive history that claims that all Old Covenant laws have been cancelled in favor of the Law of Christ or New Covenant law of the New Testament.
I haven’t heard of this but, of course, one can easily see why some are motivated to cancel any law that requires them to curb their desires. They will answer to Him and their theology won’t be an acceptable excuse
This can be summarized as the ethical expectation found in the New Testament. The NCT claims that all Old Covenant laws have been fulfilled by Christ and are thus cancelled or abrogated in favor of the Law of Christ or New Covenant law. This can be summarized as the ethical expectation found in the New Testament.
Is there any moral imperative they admit to being under? Anything they must do or aren’t allowed to do at all? I’m curious.
Of course, more established theological bases, such as Catholicism, will argue the opposite; that the NT is, indeed, a fulfillment of the promise made in the OT but does not cancel the older for the new. We know that Jesus was Jewish and followed/taught the Torah. In fact, in Matthew 5:19 Jesus demands of His followers to adhere to and teach the Commandments of the Torah. This makes perfect sense given that the New Testament wasn't written until after His death. How could He teach from a book that hadn't been yet written?
Well, we consider Him the book and his life the example to follow. Sacrifices are no longer necessary. There were strong believers long before the information was written down. That wasn’t missing.
That being said, Jesus also calls his followers to follow HIS teachings, not those of the scribes and pharisees. If we consider this, then isn't the NT a collection of His teachings for all who worship in His name to follow?
Well yes but I suspect it’s pretty much impossible without His help. That is, we are called to surrender to Him and walk WITH him. This is best summed up in that Old Testament in my signature.
It's like an ouroboros that just keeps going 'round and 'round.
I don’t see that. I can offer you the end.
Perhaps my question is better asked "As a Christian are we expected to follow the Teachings of The Christ in favor of the old teachings when they contradict?" and if we don't, can one truly call themselves a Christian at all?
Well, you’ve yet to establish contradictions at all let alone any weighty ones. The two pieces are written to two very different times. They address matters important to those eras.
 
I don't think everything in the OT is "bad". The Ten Commandment's are a pretty good list of things to do in order to be a better Human Being.
Again, they are not written for personal self-improvement.
That being said, I think we have to understand a lot of the OT are epic stories of good v evil, God's triumph over the Devil and a warning to those who decide not to follow the path.
That’s too simple…. fairy tales are good versus evil. Biblical characters were real people with failings, unlike good vs evil tales. David, for example, murdered. Not good.
Epic stories that were once passed from generation to generation via the spoken word to keep a tribe or group of people both entertained and terrified. Terrified of doing the wrong thing.
I don’t see that anywhere. And since people DID wrong, it obviously didn’t work. Doubt it was the goal. Terrified people don’t disobey. You read the stories. Are you terrified?
One day someone somewhere decided to start writing these stories down to share with other tribes, other cities and other people.
Well, they were written in Hebrew only the Hebrews could read until it was replaced with Aramaic and Greek.
Stories which sounded familiar to each who heard them, but had a slightly different take on them due to the distance between tribes and the spoken word travelling through generations.
No evidence it was written for outsiders. Other stories from other cultures don’t resemble these accounts in any case except for the Flood. That matched (for obvious reasons as it was in their past too.)
These stories grew bigger and more entertaining (and more terrifying) as decades or centuries went on and a single collection was bound, translated from several different languages into one, and shared in temples everywhere.

Where is there any evidence for this? The Hebrew scriptures were once translated into Greek by 70 scholars in 70 days… that’s it. If they were embellished they would have made the heros perfect instead of deeply flawed. None of this theory matches real life.
Insisting that the OT is bad in its depiction of violence, murder, fire, etc. is as ludicrous as insisting Homer's Odyssey and Iliad are bad, the epic poem Beowulf or most books written today.
Have you read those? Did those characters even resemble real flawed people?
Each have a hero with his or her own obstacles to overcome and monsters to face.
What? That’s not even a close description of the OT.
Each fight valiantly for what's "right' and each protagonist is usually a 'chosen one'. More importantly, each establish a set of morals to follow, complete with rewards for doing so and punishments for refusing them.
Which Bible hero established a set of morals to follow in the OT?
I believe I said in the beginning that religious belief, when used to bring communities together in a sense of family, acceptance and love is a beautiful thing.
So you support the Islamic nations whatever they do to non-muslims?
One I have no ill feelings towards at all. Unfortunately, some would use or abuse a person's faith to achieve their own goals or agendas, twisting a believer's mind away from those sentiments of love and harmony into something akin to hatred and bigotry.
Do you examples of this?
How many times have we heard of religious parents turning their back on their own children because they came out as gay or trans?
Names please.
How many of these kids have committed suicide because the people who are supposed to love them no matter what refused to do so because of what they were taught in church?
Names please. Since about 70% of your raised in the church leave the faith, we’d know if this was true. What is, since a number of “trans” youth deeply regret having body parts cut off they’ll never get back, rejection is not a likely reason for suicide.
Scripture *can* be reasonable and straightforward. DO NOT KILL. DO NOT STEAL. DO NOT LIE... however, most of the writings are so subject to interpretation that anyone with an ounce of charisma and presence can manipulate these interpretations into something downright evil.
It’s do not murder. And it’s not the scripture at all. It’s the evil heart wanting to sin so they need a big fat black marker when they read scripture.
 
Scripture *can* be reasonable and straightforward. DO NOT KILL. DO NOT STEAL. DO NOT LIE... however, most of the writings are so subject to interpretation that anyone with an ounce of charisma and presence can manipulate these interpretations into something downright evil.
Ultimately, that's only a danger to unsaved people.

God's people - those he has saved and set apart for himself through faith in his forgiveness - are protected by God from the destruction of false teachings. We can see the truth about all the things you lament about Christianity, Christians, and the Bible. They are stumbling blocks to the unconverted, not to us, because the Spirit leads us into the truth.
 
There are many discussions and debates going back and forth about 'does the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian New Testament contradict each other?' Far more than I care to list here. It is an age-old debate and one I do not think will be resolved any time soon.
Honestly, that's just not an issue among genuine Christians.
 
"Jesus teaches almost the exact opposite of the laws in the OT."?
 
Back
Top