What is the point of the New Testament?

[Jethro Bodine]

if I, in my heart, follow the lessons laid out in the parables and sermons of the Christ not because I wish to call myself a Christian but because in my soul I feel it is simply the *right* thing to do, can that not be interpreted as me 'answering the door'?

No.
Because that has nothing to do with the matter of the guilt of your sins and you receiving the forgiveness of sin offered to you to wash it away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God, Allah, Elohim, Abba, Thor, Odin, Marduk, Set... to insist that the Christian God Can't be any of these is akin to saying a lake or river can't be wet because the great ocean is wet.

Christianity is the only religion in which man is redeemed by God's grace in the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of His righteousness to a person, not redeemed by one being good as you are suggesting and which all other religions suppose.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those waters are of course muddied by "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" So there *are* other gods out there. God is jealous and wants to keep humanity to Himself.

No, there are no other gods:

4...there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6

 

[RLKIII]

[quote[
No.
Because that has nothing to do with the matter of the guilt of your sins and you receiving the forgiveness of sin offered to you to wash it away.[/quote]

Seems like pettiness to me. If doing good for the sake of just doing good isn't enough, then what's the point of doing good at all? For fear of retribution? Can we honestly say any deed is 'good' if it comes with a price tag?

Christianity is the only religion in which man is redeemed by God's grace in the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of His righteousness to a person, not redeemed by one being good as you are suggesting and which all other religions suppose.

Hmmm.. not quite. Islam teaches that people who die disbelieving in God do not receive salvation. It also teaches that non-Muslims who die believing in God but disbelieving in His message (Islam), are left to His will.

In Judaism, salvation is closely related to the idea of redemption, a saving from the states or circumstances that destroy the value of human existence. God, as the universal spirit and Creator of the World, is the source of all salvation for humanity, provided an individual honors God by observing his precepts.

But both of those faiths have very close ties to Christianity so it makes sense they would carry a similar message. What about religions not founded on the Torah, the Quran or the Bible?

Hindus believe that salvation comes in realizing that everything is one, everything is in union with Brahman and one's soul is the same as the universal soul.

In Shinto, a religion indigenous to Japan, the concept of salvation is based on the belief that all living things have an essence, soul or spirit known as "kami."

Salvation for Taoism is a matter of participation in the eternal return of the natural world, a yielding to chaos followed by spontaneous creation, in a never-ending cycle.

Egyptian religious beliefs say that Shen, called 'The Saviour' represents the concept of salvation

To insist that Christianity is the only religion to offer salvations is, in effect, just wrong. Of course, those following the Christian faith demand this is true because it is true for them. There's nothing wrong with that. Different heavens for different religious beliefs. I don't expect a devout Christian to accept any other form of salvation than what they are taught, just as I don't expect any devout follower of any other religion to do so as well.

Where problems often arise is when the followers of one religion make demands on those of other religions, or those adhering to no religion at all. We've seen it over and over again throughout history. The Holy Crusades (Christian), the Spanish Inquisition (Catholic), Jihads (Muslim). In fact, nearly ALL of the faiths which adhere to the OT in some way or another have been / and still are / guilty of this.

Jews, on the other hand, have never made such demands. At least none that I can find in my research. Perhaps in the light that Jesus was a Jew and taught from the Jewish Torah we can take something from this?

No, there are no other gods

Again, a Christian belief and I respect that. Attempting to demand that of other religions who worship other gods is kind of imperious, however.

I am not here with any ulterior motive to persuade anyone to doubt their own religious beliefs. If one starts to ask questions and seek out answers, answers which may only strengthen their belief, then great. I applaud them. I even envy them.

Again, being an Atheist myself I find the concept of an all-powerful God keeping us in check a fascinating ideology. The fact that so many people from so many backgrounds can come together in a single place with a single belief and support one another is amazing. But... if we are compelled to do good not for goodness sake but, rather, in hopes of reward - or fear of retribution - what does that say about us? That without some guiding figure and threat of punishment we'd just do whatever we wanted without thought? We'd all be rampant rapists and murders?

I know I wouldn't, and I don't need the fear of any god to keep me in check. What about you? For just one moment think about how you would act if not for the reward or punishment for your actions?

 

[Free]

There are three 'truths' about God. He is omnipresent. He is Omniscient. He is ineffable.

To insist there is only one aspect of God is to place limitations upon the limitless. God, Allah, Elohim, Abba, Thor, Odin, Marduk, Set... to insist that the Christian God Can't be any of these is akin to saying a lake or river can't be wet because the great ocean is wet.

Not really. You would have to define what you mean by "God," "Elohim," and "Abba," as to Christians those are all three the same God, but as for the gods of other religions, they simply cannot be any of the others because they are irreconcilably different at the core. Any similarities are superficial.

Those waters are of course muddied by "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" So there *are* other gods out there. God is jealous and wants to keep humanity to Himself.

In one sense, there are no other gods, because there is no other living god:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

So, clearly God doesn't think there is another actual god. So, what does the Bible mean by other gods?

Psa 96:4 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; he is to be feared above all gods.
Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the LORD made the heavens.

Isa 42:17 They are turned back and utterly put to shame, who trust in carved idols, who say to metal images, “You are our gods.”

This is why Paul refers to these as "so-called gods" in 1 Cor 8:5.

In another sense, there are gods but they're worthless. However, even today, there are numerous false gods. Anything can be a god, even things like money, power, fame, work, sexuality, self, etc., in the sense that people ascribe some sort of power to it and place it above God; anything that is worshiped is god.

This has always struck me as revealing that God, by any name we wish to call Him, is not infallible but is just as prone to sin as any of us.

Greed: as seen above; wanting to keep all of us to Himself

Envy: Exodus 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God..."

Should a husband want to keep his wife to himself? Should he be jealous if another man is trying to woo her? What kind of husband would he be if the answers are "no"? Be careful in assuming definitions of words.

Sloth: for the past 2000+ years He has been absent, unwilling or unable to involve Himself directly with Humanity.
Wrath: We've seen plenty of examples of God's wrath called out by name.

That clearly isn't the case. Jesus is the most obvious example, but numerous Christians have attested and will attest to God's clear work in their lives.

Pride: An entire war in Heaven began because God thought none of his firstborn creations deserved the adulation He himself basked within.

You would have to explain what you mean by this.

That really only leaves Lust and Gluttony. Lust is a very close cousin to Envy, so that's debatable. Gluttony runs parallel with greed.

And, actually, the above assumption, that God is as fallible as the rest of us (just with a LOT more power than we have) makes me *like* God a little more. Appreciate, even. Relate to a little more. I have more respect for anyone who is willing to admit his/her/their own weaknesses than anyone who would demand they are perfect.

But maybe that's just me...

Yes, it's just you. God doesn't demand he is perfect, he just is perfect. Any god that isn't perfect simply isn't God.

 

[RLKIII]

That's the result of sin, not God's punishment.

We live in a fallen world. A world turned over to sin and decay because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. And so we live an existence separated from the beauty and perfection of heaven. But which God will restore us to if we admit our sin and ask forgiveness, and receive the Holy Spirit as a down payment and guarantee of the glory to come. But most people reject his offer of forgiveness and restoration and prefer the pleasures of sin instead.

So an innocent must suffer a short life of horrendous pain and fear because of something their mother of father might have done in the past? What if the family isn't Christian? Is the child doomed to even more torment in hell having done nothing wrong? If so, God's an asshole, sorry.

Adam adn Eve. This story has never made sense for a lot of reasons and I have put a lot if thought into one particular aspect: The apple and the serpent.

God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He created the garden, everything in it, including both Adam and Eve. So how did the serpent gain access to the garden without God's knowledge? Why would God put anything forbidden in the garden to tempt Adam adn Eve if He already knew the outcome (being omniscient)? If He was truly all-knowing then surely He knew the serpent was in the garden, knew that it would tempt Even into eating the forbidden fruit and knew what would happen from the onset?

All of that would make sense *IF* it was part of God's plan as a means to create Humanity. But if it was, why not just create mankind already flawed? Why put them through this ordeal and then punish them after? In fact, if it was God's plan to send Adam and Even out into the wilderness, why create the garden at all?

Either God is cruel and takes enjoyment in that cruelty (hence giving cancer to children) or he didn't know what the outcome was going to be and was powerless to prevent it.

Which is it? Can't have both.

 

[Free]

So an innocent must suffer a short life of horrendous pain and fear because of something their mother of father might have done in the past? What if the family isn't Christian? Is the child doomed to even more torment in hell having done nothing wrong? If so, God's an asshole, sorry.

Adam adn Eve. This story has never made sense for a lot of reasons and I have put a lot if thought into one particular aspect: The apple and the serpent.

God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He created the garden, everything in it, including both Adam and Eve. So how did the serpent gain access to the garden without God's knowledge? Why would God put anything forbidden in the garden to tempt Adam adn Eve if He already knew the outcome (being omniscient)? If He was truly all-knowing then surely He knew the serpent was in the garden, knew that it would tempt Even into eating the forbidden fruit and knew what would happen from the onset?

All of that would make sense *IF* it was part of God's plan as a means to create Humanity. But if it was, why not just create mankind already flawed? Why put them through this ordeal and then punish them after? In fact, if it was God's plan to send Adam and Even out into the wilderness, why create the garden at all?

Either God is cruel and takes enjoyment in that cruelty (hence giving cancer to children) or he didn't know what the outcome was going to be and was powerless to prevent it.

Which is it? Can't have both.

False dichotomy. God created man perfect but man rebelled. God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree because he knew precisely what would happen if they did, but he also knew they would. The result of their sin is death, decay, sickness, and separation from God. He knew what would happen but he wasn't powerless to prevent it. He let it happen, just as he lets planes crash, ships sink, young and old get cancer, people starve, etc. The question is: why?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Every now and again an atheist comes on the site for a short time to complain about and accuse God and Christians. Their criticisms are usually born of ignorance but not just that, it is most often a willful ignorance. That is, when logical rational answers are given (which is pretty easy as the atheist position is full of holes), they do not learn. They do not receive them but ask the same questions and bring out the same accusations. One detects no progress in understanding which shows a desire to accuse and not a desire to learn. They are not questions asked to gain understanding. This is the most common type of atheist.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's keep politics out of this as much as possible if we can. There *is* corruption in politics, on both sides, some far, far worse than others but that is the very nature of politics itself.

Why? You unfairly accuse believers of the same thing. It’s not true. And it’s men who WORK in politics. Man is dirty, and not just in politics.

As for everything else, I do not believe in God as a singular all-powerful intelligence. Or, more accurately, I *do* believe in a cosmic consciousness and, to an extent, a form of life after death as it were, but not that any of this is overseen and controlled by a single superentity.

The force…taking all the pleasing but out of a Supreme Being leaving the justice (which is what judgement is.)

My greatest hope and my greatest fear as the same thing, however. That I am wrong.

Why is that a hope?

I am quite happy to spend life in eternal purgatory if it comes down to merely saying some words.

There is no purgatory

I'd also have a beef with God about why He would see fit to give kids terminal cancer, among other things. A truly benevolent God wouldn't punish innocent children like that, and if it's to punish the parents for something, then God's just an ass.

But enough on that....

Once again, He is not micromanaging the world. Some cancer comes from MAN.

Your post reminds me of a quote from CS Lewis. “They judge lest they be judged.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To insist that Christianity is the only religion to offer salvations is, in effect, just wrong.

That's not what I said.

I said it is the only religion that says you are saved by being forgiven your sins and given the righteousness of God. All other religions are works salvation religions where, through the tenants and teachings and practices of that religion, you live a good life that earns and deserves salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So an innocent must suffer a short life of horrendous pain and fear because of something their mother of father might have done in the past?

It's called 'consequence'.
God has not spared us the horrors of sin. But in his mercy he has mitigated it.
Mankind has yet to receive the full consequence of it's sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if the family isn't Christian? Is the child doomed to even more torment in hell having done nothing wrong? If so, God's an asshole, sorry.

Why are you equating a child getting cancer with them going to hell? That was quite a leap, lol.

Children sometimes suffer in this life as a consequence of the sins of their parents. Children do not go to hell for the sins of their parents. Children go to hell for their own sins if they live to an age when they become accountable for their sins.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But... if we are compelled to do good not for goodness sake but, rather, in hopes of reward - or fear of retribution - what does that say about us?

What it says about us is that we are becoming wiser:

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom Proverbs 9:10

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If doing good for the sake of just doing good isn't enough, then what's the point of doing good at all? For fear of retribution? Can we honestly say any deed is 'good' if it comes with a price tag?

Just to be clear. You don't do good as payment for a ticket to enter the kingdom of God. That ticket can only be secured through faith in God's forgiveness and receiving an imputation of His righteousness. That's not rational to the natural mind, but that is the only way you'll ever be qualified to enter the kingdom of God. You can never be righteous enough to merit entry into the kingdom of heaven. The righteousness required to enter the kingdom of God can only be secured as a free gift of God's love and grace given to those who are sorry for their sins and don't want to live that way anymore. By the way, the consequences of sin help us to not want to live that way anymore.

 

[Exeter]

Correction? Isn't it a mortal sin to amend the Word of God?

And sorry, this doesn't make sense as the two Testaments contradict one another quite often.

It means Scripture is useful for correcting people who are out of alignment with the Will of God. Confirmation bias is an obstacle that needs correcting as it blinds sceptics and naysayers to the Truth of God's Word and they are like blind guides stumbling in darkness,

The Old Testament shows the wrath of God against sin, while the New Testament shows the grace of God toward sinners. The New Testament builds on the foundation of the Old Testament with further revelation from God, and encourages a personal relationship with Jesus Christ1.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It means Scripture is useful for correcting people who are out of alignment with the Will of God. Confirmation bias is an obstacle that needs correcting as it blinds sceptics and naysayers to the Truth of God's Word and they are like blind guides stumbling in darkness,

I agree.

The Old Testament shows the wrath of God against sin, while the New Testament shows the grace of God toward sinners.

Did some preacher tell you this? It’s an insult to God. Let us substitute an actual sin and see if you still like it. The old testament shows the wrath of God against raping children while the new testament shows the grace of God to pedophils. Or the OT shows the wrath of God towards murder but the NT shows the grace of God towards murderers. Do you see what’s wrong?

We, ourselves, have wrath towards murders in both and so does God. But we can have grace and mercy towards murderers even now in NT covenant last days IF THEY CEASE TO MURDER. So God’s attitude in either testament can be understood if we put in a real sin.

The New Testament builds on the foundation of the Old Testament with further revelation from God, and encourages a personal relationship with Jesus Christ1.

Yes although a relationship is required not merely encouraged.

 

[Exeter]

The old testament shows the wrath of God against raping children while the new testament shows the grace of God to pedophils. Or the OT shows the wrath of God towards murder but the NT shows the grace of God towards murderers. Do you see what’s wrong?

Not wrong, merciful.

 

[Exeter]

Just to be clear. You don't do good as payment for a ticket to enter the kingdom of God. That ticket can only be secured through faith in God's forgiveness and receiving an imputation of His righteousness. That's not rational to the natural mind, but that is the only way you'll ever be qualified to enter the kingdom of God. You can never be righteous enough to merit entry into the kingdom of heaven. The righteousness required to enter the kingdom of God can only be secured as a free gift of God's love and grace given to those who are sorry for their sins and don't want to live that way anymore. By the way, the consequences of sin help us to not want to live that way anymore.

Amen.

Different sources suggest different steps and conditions to be forgiven by God. Some common elements are confessing sins to God, showing remorse and repentance, and believing in Jesus Christ as the only solution. Some sources also mention fasting, receiving the Holy Sacraments, and making things right with others as part of the process. One source warns that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin that will never be forgiven¹.

The Bible says that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)³. We know it because of Jesus Christ³. If you really know God's Word, no matter how you feel, you can speak scriptures over your life and pretty soon your feelings have lost their authority². [Sourced with help from Bingo the Chatbot]

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not wrong, merciful.

It’s not merciful to be kind and gentle and forgiving to child rapists who appreciate the understanding so they can continue.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Amen.

Different sources suggest different steps and conditions to be forgiven by God. Some common elements are confessing sins to God, showing remorse and repentance, and believing in Jesus Christ as the only solution.

I agree. There are conditions.

Some sources also mention fasting, receiving the Holy Sacraments, and making things right with others as part of the process.

Not sure about fasting for forgiveness since Jesus. I’m protestant so we don’t have holy sacraments only holy people.’

The Bible says that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)³. We know it because of Jesus Christ³.

That’s written to believers who have already repented and are following Jesus.

If you really know God's Word, no matter how you feel, you can speak scriptures over your life and pretty soon your feelings have lost their authority². [Sourced with help from Bingo the Chatbot]

What happened to the conditions?