What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[Bible]

This sounds very cultish to me. My wife was raised within the churches of Christ and many fundamentalist hold the hard line that baptism is a requirement of salvation.

This line of thinking can be toxic as it minimizes the beauty of baptism and converts baptism from a beautiful ceremony where God and man (or woman) are United as one into a legalistic transaction void of any semblance of relationship.

While I believe the Bible teaches that Baptism is normative in the salvistic experience, it’s not as cut and dry as some would make it out.

It is dangerous when any church teaches they are the only one true church and they alone hold absolute truth within their doctrines. That’s a huge red flag that is very apparent to the world, yet blinds the minds of those who support such institutions. Those institutions breed the spirit of division. Point in case, baptism and communion are items to unite the body of Christ, yet they are some of the most controversial subjects within christian cults who claim their doctrine makes them the one true church. How sad.

It’s a covenant not a cult

There is no union without baptism
No communion of the saints
Baptism is only the initiation
That’s how we have union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and his saints
There is only me church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 18/18 jn 10:16 that teaches all nations Matt 28:19 all are only false manmade sects

 

[stovebolts]

It’s a covenant not a cult

According to John L. McKenzie, Jesuit Priest who taught at Notre Dame, Loyola, and De Paul describes, and wrote an OT theology aptly named Cult where he contrasts his theology with modern times. You may enjoy reading it sometime.

Regarding covenant, it is a Covenant between God and those who willing enter into it. Furthermore, it is those who enter into covenant, regardless of ethnicity, social status, wealth, sex nor any other exterior criteria that makes up Gods church. In this way, the church is universal which properly translated is Catholic.

There is no union without baptism
No communion of the saints
Baptism is only the initiation

And if a church tradition teaches this without exception as core doctrine, then they limit the Body of Christ. Furthermore, if these doctrines elevate oneself above a brother in Christ, then how could they be any better than the Pharisees who took a very similar legalistic line on so many other matters?

There is only me church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 18/18 jn 10:16 that teaches all nations Matt 28:19 all are only false manmade sects

Did you mean to say my, as in the Roman Catholic Church?

Please note that Roman takes precedence over Catholic. Thus, it becomes a Roman Catholic Church where it should be the Catholic Church in Rome.

By default, Rome desires to rule over the entire church and it is this sinful desire that split the Catholic Church in 1054. It was Rome who refused to repent.

Protestants are the children of Rome who like the Catholic Church, rebelled against Rome’s authority.

Jesus asked Peter, “Who do they say I am”. Jesus never forced himself on others. Why then does Rome desire to rule over all the church as absolute authority?

 

[Quantrill]

So baptism does not was away sins?
Does not make us a member of Christ and put on Christ?
Not baptized into his death?
Does not make us members of his church?
Does not accomplish justification and regeneration???

Your first sentence is unclear. If you mean to say 'So baptism does not take away sins' then I say yes. Water baptism does not take away sins. Because water baptism is what you are talking about.

No, water baptism does not make us a member of Christ or put on Christ.

No, water baptism does not baptize us int the death of Christ.

No, water baptism does not make us members of the Church.

No, water baptism does not accomplish justification or regeneration.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

So baptism does not was away sins?
Does not make us a member of Christ and put on Christ?
Not baptized into his death?
Does not make us members of his church?
Does not accomplish justification and regeneration???

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

I have already answered your argument in post #(114).

Why repeat it?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

He is already delegating his authority to his church to the apostles

Ok. So?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The church is the ark of salvation 1 cor 12:13 gal 3:27
1 pet 3:21 baptism is the initiation the ark of salvation

(1 Peter 3:20-21) is clear that the 8 souls were saved by water. Not the Ark.

How were they saved? As I said, as it says, by the destruction of the world. The water destroyed the world's influence upon the believer. This is not our being born-again. This is our walk of salvation in this wicked world.

Quantrill

 

[Bible]

Your first sentence is unclear. If you mean to say 'So baptism does not take away sins' then I say yes. Water baptism does not take away sins. Because water baptism is what you are talking about.

No, water baptism does not make us a member of Christ or put on Christ.

No, water baptism does not baptize us int the death of Christ.

No, water baptism does not make us members of the Church.

No, water baptism does not accomplish justification or regeneration.

Quantrill

Scripture says it does
And a sacrament is an outward sign that signifies what it accomplishes washing away sin make is a new creation regeneration justification

Washing away sin!
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Member of Christ and his church

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 regeneration
New creation 2 cor 5:17

 

[Bible]

Ok. So?

Quantrill

The church exercises the authority of Christ until he returns
Apostolic authority continues to the end
Matt 28:19

 

[Quantrill]

Scripture says it does
And a sacrament is an outward sign that signifies what it accomplishes washing away sin make is a new creation regeneration justification

Washing away sin!
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Member of Christ and his church

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 regeneration
New creation 2 cor 5:17

No, Scripture does not as I have already pointed out.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The church exercises the authority of Christ until he returns
Apostolic authority continues to the end
Matt 28:19

The Church exercises the authority of Christ, yes.

It does so through the many gift ministries given by the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't do it through any false claim of some succession to Peter.

Quantrill

 

[Bible]

No, Scripture does not as I have already pointed out.

Quantrill

Paul is the one being baptized here


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:36-38
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And only in baptism do we put on Christ
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And become in union with Christ in the new covenant church


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Now show me in the “faith alone” from the “Bible alone”

 

[Bible]

The Church exercises the authority of Christ, yes.

It does so through the many gift ministries given by the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't do it through any false claim of some succession to Peter.

Quantrill

You don’t believe in apostolic succession?

 

[Quantrill]

Paul is the one being baptized here


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:36-38
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And only in baptism do we put on Christ
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And become in union with Christ in the new covenant church


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Now show me in the “faith alone” from the “Bible alone”

Paul already was a believer by the time he met Ananias. (Acts 9:5-6). Faith alone, before water baptism.

Again, we are not arguing whether or not water baptism exists and is important. We are arguing over whether or not it is necessary combined with faith, to go to heaven. And it is not. Only faith. Faith alone. Then water baptism.

Again, (Acts 8:36-38) is clear. Faith first. Then water baptism.

Again, (1 Cor. 12:13) and (Gal. 3:27) speaks to spirit baptism. Not water baptism. You continue in your confusion.

The verses you have presented show it is faith alone.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You don’t believe in apostolic succession?

Not from Peter...no. The apostle's doctrine, yes.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s a covenant not a cult

There is no union without baptism
No communion of the saints
Baptism is only the initiation
That’s how we have union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and his saints
There is only me church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 18/18 jn 10:16 that teaches all nations Matt 28:19 all are only false manmade sects

Hi Bible
Sorry I haven't been following along.
I remember that there is dispute as to whether the sign of the new Covenant is baptism or communion.

Not to derail....but here is my question:
If baptism is what makes the communion of saints and how we have communion with Christ, does this mean that everyone that is baptized is saved?

Catholics are baptized as infants.
Are these persons all saved?

Also, why don't you explain that there is no such church as the RCC, but only the CC. Roman is a rite within the CC.

Thanks for your reply re the baptism...

 

[Bible]

Paul already was a believer by the time he met Ananias. (Acts 9:5-6). Faith alone, before water baptism.

Again, we are not arguing whether or not water baptism exists and is important. We are arguing over whether or not it is necessary combined with faith, to go to heaven. And it is not. Only faith. Faith alone. Then water baptism.

Again, (Acts 8:36-38) is clear. Faith first. Then water baptism.

Again, (1 Cor. 12:13) and (Gal. 3:27) speaks to spirit baptism. Not water baptism. You continue in your confusion.

The verses you have presented show it is faith alone.

Quantrill

Faith alone is a condemned heresy!
Luther demanded a council to decide on his innovations the council of Trent convened and condemned all his proposals especially faith alone, holy council of Trent by the authority of Christ in his apostles. If anyone says a man may be just by faith alone let him be anathema!
And Christ Mk 16:16 faith and baptism
Scripture Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
Paul condemns faith alone
1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity avails nothing
Phil 1:29 called to suffer for Christ not “faith alone”
In “faith alone” we died with Christ? No in baptism rom 6:3
In “faith alone” we put on Christ? No in baptism gal 3:27
In “faith alone we become members of Christ and his holy church? No in baptism
1 cor 12:13

The holy church is the ark of salvation and baptism is how we enter the ark notice we are sealed by God in baptism just as Noah was sealed by God on the ark gen 7:16
eph 1:13
Sealed by baptism

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith (Catholic) one baptism

 

[Bible]

Not from Peter...no. The apostle's doctrine, yes.

Quantrill

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Mathias succeeded judus

 

[Bible]

Not from Peter...no. The apostle's doctrine, yes.

Quantrill

Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

 

[Bible]

Hi Bible
Sorry I haven't been following along.
I remember that there is dispute as to whether the sign of the new Covenant is baptism or communion.

Not to derail....but here is my question:
If baptism is what makes the communion of saints and how we have communion with Christ, does this mean that everyone that is baptized is saved?

Catholics are baptized as infants.
Are these persons all saved?

Also, why don't you explain that there is no such church as the RCC, but only the CC. Roman is a rite within the CC.

Thanks for your reply re the baptism...

No saved but justified members of Christ and his one true church Jn 10:16
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

See more below

 

[Bible]

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Thru the sacraments!


God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.