what needs to happen for the end times to arrive ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Someone, somewhere, is always in the "end times". It depends on how you define it.

I think “latter days” is a better term and it started on the day of Pentecost as Peter said Joel said. We are in the latter days, the new covenant.

As far as Israel goes, it’s worth mentioning that Israel is barely mentioned in Revelation by name. It’s called other terms, but rarely “Israel.”

 

[ezrider]

Well I personally believe we are in the end times since Israel became a nation and a nation in one day as it was written foretold.

Someone, somewhere, is always in the "end times". It depends on how you define it.

As far as Israel goes, it’s worth mentioning that Israel is barely mentioned in Revelation by name. It’s called other terms, but rarely “Israel.”

Much of what is written concerning the end times, especially the words of Jesus, had to do with the judgement of Jerusalem and Israel, and the scattering of her peoples to the four corners. Israel as a nation was no more.
So as far as Israel becoming a nation again, what would be it significance? I would tend to see it closer to that of Satan being released from the pit at the end of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Stormcrow, I for one have appreciated your posts over the several threads on the book of Revelation and the clarity with which you present it. Thank you. I was curious as to your thoughts on Rev 20 and the end of the thousand years.

 

[Stormcrow]

I was curious as to your thoughts on Rev 20 and the end of the thousand years.

Thank you, EZrider. The milennium is a very complex topic and my daughter and granddaughter are coming in from Germany later today. Need sleep. Will have to get back to you on this one.

 

[Stormcrow]

@Stormcrow, I for one have appreciated your posts over the several threads on the book of Revelation and the clarity with which you present it. Thank you. I was curious as to your thoughts on Rev 20 and the end of the thousand years.

OK, ezrider, I'm going to do the best I can to explain this very difficult passage in Revelation 20. I think the easiest place to start is with the information we know:

​

The identity of the deceiver.​

The prophetic use of the number 1,000.​

​

If we can establish these, I think we can begin to make sense of the rest of the text.

​

In all of these, I think's best to let scripture interpret scripture, since "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." Timothy 3:16.

The identity of the deceiver.

Revelation 20:1–3, 7 (NKJV)
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth,

First, what did Jesus say of the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees of His day?

John 8:44 (NKJV)
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

1 John 3:10 (NKJV)
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Jesus and John are comparing the works of the religious rulers of their day with their father, the devil. And we can see that this "devil" is instrumental in the persecution of the saints:

Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Recall that it was the Sanhedrin - the body of religious rulers of that time - that gave Saul (Paul) letters to hunt down and destroy the saints:

Acts 8:3 (NKJV)
3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Acts 22:4–5 (NKJV)
4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, 5 as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

To recap: the deceiver, the "devil" and Satan (literally "adversary") is embodied in the religious leaders of Christ's day, those He called "murderers and liars." We also see that this "devil" is instrumental is the persecution of the early saints.

And now we see that this "devil" is synonymous with "the harlot":

"...for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her [the harlot] was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:23-24

And the harlot is (again): Matthew 23:29-32.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets."

Now, one last identifier is needed. Recall that the "deceiver" is locked up for 1,000 years, "that he should deceive the nations no more." But when the deceiver is released, the first thing he does is "go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth" (Revelation 20:8) See the connection to Revelation 18 above?

Finally, we have this example from Acts of Paul confronting one of these "deceivers" who opposed the gospel:

Acts 13:6–12 (NKJV)
6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? 11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.” And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

Peter, Paul, Silas, and Barnabas had many such encounters in Acts when they would come into Greek cities, where the Jews there would stir up the passions of the crowds against the apostles. These, too, were deceivers doing the work of their father, the devil.

I'm going to stop here because this is a lot to take in, and it has taken me a lot of time to put just this post together.

In closing this post, I think we can safely say that these references to "deceivers", "devils", "sons of devils", "murderers", and "the harlot" are all referring to 1st century Jerusalem and its old covenant religious leaders, as 1st century Jerusalem is the only city in which "the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth" was found.

So then, is the 1,000 years a literal 1,000 years, or is it prophetic hyperbole? I'll address that in my next post.

 

[ezrider]

So then, is the 1,000 years a literal 1,000 years, or is it prophetic hyperbole? I'll address that in my next post.

I look forward to it.

As to the deceiver, there is a common theme that stands clear to me, and it is a connection between Satan, the Law, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In Rev 12, Satan, called the Devil, is referred to as the accuser of the brethren. But in John 5 it is written of Jesus who said you have one accuser, even Moses in whom you trust. It is the strength of the law that is our accuser. Jesus came to free us from the strength of the law, that we might live according to faith.

The words of the scripture and the law gives to us the knowledge of good and evil. It sets before us the same temptation as Adam.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

We are in essence told that the scriptures are full of wisdom, many hunger for its fruit, and we desire its knowledge. The temptation is that we take this knowledge for ourselves so that we might be as gods, judging between good and evil. Paul speaks to this same temptation in 2 Thessalonians 2 for the man of sin and the working of Satan.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

With the knowledge of the law, the man of sin shows himself that he is god, judging between good and evil.

Genesis 3:22-23-25
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Jesus on the other hand taught us to judge not.. but rather to forgive. We know that it is written of Jesus that he is the way, the truth, and the life. Through his death and resurrection, he became the way back to the tree of life, but few there be that find it. In Revelation 22, we see again the tree of life inside the garden, the new Jerusalem with the throne of God.

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

But we also see in Revelation 22 those who remain on the outside; those who are cut off.... those who loveth the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and maketh a lie.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


One thing that does stand out to me, is that in this past generation, the Scriptures have been made available to everyone at an individual level. It has been translated into many different languages and many different versions. It is written in books and available digitally on line. With a Strong's concordance among other tools, one can not only judge between good and evil, but they can also judge the word of God itself.

When we look out in the world today, when we look at the political and religious discourse, do we see a spirit of judgement at work? The workings of Satan? Brother standing in judgement of brother, neighbor standing in judgement of neighbor. The right calling people on the left evil, the left calling out the hypocrisy of people on the right. Both sides, left and right, the brother and neighbor, they each use the Bible and the writings of the Scriptures to justify their judgement of one another. Or what about the sister who mocks another for their Bible doing nothing but collecting dust on a shelf?

It didn't always used to be this way. Stormcrow, you are way more familiar with the writings and the early church history than I. I know you said the millennium was complicated, but how might the scriptures play into it. For much of history, the manuscripts were held by few, the scribes among them. The first printed Bible, the Gutenberg Bible, was printed in 1455, in the middle of the 15th century. By the 17th century, we entered the age of enlightenment, and a newly printed 1611 King James Bible. But through it all, through the enlightenment, as in ancient Israel, only the scribes and priests, along with the learned men, had access to and could read for themselves the words of the scripture; but as for the rest, they only had faith. It is only now, in this generation, where everyone in the modern world can be an educated and learned man with the scriptures in their hand!

 

[Jason_hoovah]

We are already in the end times. Possibly the 7 year great tribulation. Where have you been. You know the first temple could have actually been the first temple. I seriously doubt they are going to tear down the dome of the rock. The disciples said that Jesus was coming back very soon. Jesus said within their life time. And he told the judge you will see me come down from the clouds with the angels. It has been 2000 years. And that is not a short time from back then. There is a record of Jesus coming down from heaven with the angels and they attacked the romans. The Jews ran to the hills just like he said. And after that Jesus said he is not coming back but sending another advocate the holy comforter. The end of the world by the destruction of fire is the next event and it could be very soon. It is very serious and super violently destructive. Hope in God's mercy and give your heart to the Lord. very very few may be saved from his wrath

 

[Jason_hoovah]

Typo the first temple could have been the tent in the wilderness

 

[Stormcrow]

I look forward to it.

I have some errands to run with my daughter and granddaughter today, so it will be sometime later when I can get back to this.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure how it fits with what I was addressing. Paul said the Law was good. Moses stood as the accuser of those who broke the covenant. I'm not sure where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or 21st century politics fits into this, so I can't really respond.

Anyway, that's all I have for now. Real life calls.

Peace. Out.

 

[miamited]

Hi grumix8

As far as I am aware, the only event that must happen is the revelation of the lawless one. Personally, I'm not convinced that a new temple will be built prior to the return of Jesus, or after. There is actually, right now, one who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”. That would be the dome of the rock. It sits where once the wing of the temple stood and opposeth and exalteth Islam above God. It makes blasphemous boasts of its power over the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

From what I've come to understand, that's the only new covenant passage that makes any such reference that a 'temple' may exist in the last days. And right now the dome of the rock sits right on the wing of the temple.

God bless,
Ted

 

[ezrider]

There is actually, right now, one who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”.

Hi Ted, If you read that passage carefully, and strip away all that you know and believe, who does the man of sin try and show that he is God?

Hint: It's not the world

 

[ezrider]

I have some errands to run with my daughter and granddaughter today, so it will be sometime later when I can get back to this.

No rush

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure how it fits with what I was addressing. Paul said the Law was good. Moses stood as the accuser of those who broke the covenant. I'm not sure where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or 21st century politics fits into this, so I can't really respond.

In your post you stressed the importance of understanding the deceiver. While it is true that Paul said the law good, Paul also said that by the law he was deceived.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In the beginning Adam received a commandment too, Do Not Eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, or you will die. Do you supposed sin took occasion by the commandment and deceived Adam too?

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Again, if we are to understand the deceiver, then we must understand what strength it is the devil uses to deceive, and that strength comes from the law, our tree and the source of our knowledge of good and evil, that he who sins shall surely die.

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another

James reminds us that there is but one judge and lawgiver, but the man of sin is deceived, sitting in the seat Moses, showing himself that he is God. The man of sin, who picks up the book and reads a verse, thinking to himself he speaks the words of God as if he were God.



As to the 21st century, I don't think it can be ignored. I think you have done a great job in your posts on the book of Revelation and demonstrating with the words of Jesus, along with citing the works of Josephus (I've never read them), rightly dividing the word of truth, that much of its fulfillment came in the 1st century. For this someone labeled you as a preterist. While truth knows no labels, there is a truth that we still must acknowledge; We live in the 21st century, and while they may be misplaced, many believe, and many have believed, that they themselves are living in the end times, and look for prophecy to be fulfilled to legitimize their faith.

As I have stated above, it is the commandment, it is the strength of the law that Satan uses to deceive. We began our conversation when I asked you about the end of the thousand years, when Satan is loosed from the pit to go forth to deceive the nations. How does he deceive the nations? Through the commandment, and the strength of the law, all found in the scriptures. And now, 2000 years later, for the first time in history, every man of sin has a Bible of their own. The scriptures are real, God is real, and the times we live in are real.

The end of the age 2000 years ago ended the old covenant nation state relationship with Israel. We see now in our own time here in the 21st century a rise in Christian Nationalism, who have taken the constitution for a covenant, using the Bible as their justification, showing and believing that they will rule as God. Nevertheless, with the end of Israel began the times of the gentiles. But when are the times of the gentiles fulfilled?

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It seems as though most become consumed with the end times. For more than a century men have been using the scripture to predict the end of time, in their time. It's like Groundhog Day, but instead it's the end times....for each generation in their turn. But for each, there is a sense of finality of some sorts; at the end of the thousand years, when they are cast into the lake of fire.

Did the all consuming fire that appeared in Egypt and led the children of Israel into the wilderness, or when the all consuming fire descended upon the mountain so that he could write his laws into their hearts, or when the all consuming fire appeared at the dedication of Solomon's temple; When the temple was destroyed in 70AD, does Josephus or any other writings of antiquities describe the all consuming fire appearing?

What is the 1000 years? Is there an end to the times of the gentiles? What is the end of the 1000 years?

Peter said a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and thousand years as a day. Was Peter talking about a 1000 years? Or was it 2000 years? The scriptures in Revelation 20 dealing with the end of the thousand years also make mention of a resurrection. In the prophets we find it written....

Come, and let us return unto the LORD:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD:
his going forth is prepared as the morning;
and he shall come unto us as the rain,
as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Anyway, that's all I have for now. Real life calls.

Okay, I've played hooky long enough. One of the perks with working from home. But now I've got to get some work done.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say concerning the end of the thousand years.

Have a good day!

 

[grumix8]

We see many things needed to everyones description but time will tell in the end . We hope we have more time before comes but we will celebrate when Jesus descends from the clouds !

 

[Stormcrow]

Revelation 20:3 (NASB95)

3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Are the thousand years of the millennium of Revelation 20 a literal thousand years, or is it “prophetic hyperbole”?

The answer to this question – as others relating to Revelation – can be found elsewhere in the Bible.

The short answer is “No, the thousand years of Revelation 20 are not a literal thousand years”. Here’s why.

We see this number “1,000” used often in prophetic language. For example,

Psalm 50:10 (NASB95)

10 “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

Does this mean that the cattle on only a thousand hills are God’s, or that there are only a thousand hills on earth? Do the cattle on hills numbered 1,001 and more belong to someone else? The answer is no, of course not. The Psalmist makes this clear just two verses later:

Psalm 50:12 (NASB95)

12 “If I were hungry I would not tell you, For the world is Mine, and all it contains.

So we see that 1,000 is used metaphorically to represent something much larger than 1,000: the world and all it contains.

One other example of this is also found in Psalms, which Peter quotes in his letter:

Psalm 90:4 (NASB95)

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.

It’s hard for people of any age and culture to understand the concept of God’s eternal nature. The Psalmist uses the number 1,000 metaphorically and poetically to help people grasp this idea. He is not rigidly and literally speaking of 1,000 years.

So when we see 1,000 years of Satan’s bondage, or Christ’s millennial reign in Revelation, we can see that neither of these are a literal 1,000 years in duration.

Ok, I’m tired. That’s all for now. I'll explain reasons why in another post.

 

[miamited]

Hi ezrider

Well, here's the passsage:

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?…

I'm not sure that I follow your thought here. 'Who' is the lawless one trying to show that he is God? The Scriptures themselves don't really say 'who' but the assumed subject would be mankind.

I'm not sure why that makes a difference in my proposition that the dome of the rock could be what is being referenced here as being seated in the temple of God. The NASB makes it a bit more clear:

...who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

However, I'm not particularly dogmatic about it. I just am not convinced that the mention of the temple in this passage intends to portray to the reader that the temple will physically exist. The Romans tore down and burned the temple in 70 A.D. The land, however, is still the place of the temple of God and as far as God may consider it, still the holy place of His temple.

My point was a response to the OP's question as to what is the next thing that we can know that we will see before Jesus returns. The OP references it as the 'end times', but quite honestly, the 'end times' can be understood as all the days since Jesus ascended to the Father. The exact phrase 'end times' is nowhere found in the Scriptures, but there are a lot of mentions of 'last days'. But the new covenant writers speak of the 'last days' as pretty much the span of days since Jesus' ascension. The writer of Hebrews writes: "...but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." He seems to obviously consider the 'last days' as the very days at the time of his writing. Peter writes to us that we must understand that "...in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires." Those scoffers are here now. According to that Scripture we are also living in the 'last' days'.

So, I'm assuming that the question concerning the 'end times' is really a question of what needs to happen before Jesus returns. The 'end times' are already upon us and have been for quite some time now. Paul writes to the Thessalonians that the return of Christ will not happen until the lawless one is revealed. I'm going with Paul giving that warning because that is the last thing we are going to see before the imminent return of our Lord.

For the record, for anyone to scrape their mind clear of all that they know and understand is a fairly impossible task for most humans.

God bless,
Ted

 

[ezrider]

Hi @ezrider

Well, here's the passsage:

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?…

I'm not sure that I follow your thought here. 'Who' is the lawless one trying to show that he is God? The Scriptures themselves don't really say 'who' but the assumed subject would be mankind.

Perhaps I can remove some of the mystery from it.

I AM the man of Sin. It is why I am in need of Salvation, because I am a man of sin.

Before Christ came into my heart, I was a Christian, living under the schoolmaster, the law, which gave to me the knowledge of good and evil, of sin, and of my need for salvation; But I was still a Man of Sin. I was a son going into perdition. I was a lawless one, becoming a law unto myself, justifying in my heart which laws to follow and those which I could ignore. In my heart, I lifted myself above God. This is the workings of Satan. With the knowledge I now possessed, I could judge as if I were God, and I had the scriptures, the very words of God himself to prove it. In my heart, I could cast down every idol, for it is written thou shalt not worship idols. Yes, all the Catholics with their statues and every one with a picture of Jesus on the wall or a cross around their neck, they are all guilty of idol worship; they must repent!

As the man of sin, it was not my own sins that I looked too, for they were forgiven me, but it was the sins of others that I saw instead. Now with the workings of Satan, and the strong delusion that comes with the lie, the sins of others were increased, and in my heart I felt more justified in standing up and calling it out, like I was the prophet Elijah, or John the Baptist; Repent! Repent!

It was not until I realized that I was the man of sin, that I was a son that was going into perdition, like Adam, deceived by the knowledge of good and evil, deceived by the knowledge of Sin; that my heart was truly humbled. With the law as my schoolmaster and the knowledge of good and evil, I was deceived, and the nature of Sin had blinded me. I knew my own sins to be forgiven, but the sins of others still blinded me as my eyes remained open yet to sin: And I, standing in the temple of God, and from my heart, showing myself that I am as God, by proclaiming to YOU and to MYSELF what is and is not a sin and what currently offends God because I read a few words in a book written thousands of years ago.

With the workings of Satan, I was deceived by sin, for the law justified my position. As Adam and Eve in the garden my eyes were open to sin, so I took for myself a covering. But with my eyes wides open to sin, sin deceived me and by it blinded me; and kept me from seeing that in my heart, I had lifted myself up as equal with God, proclaiming as God the words of God out of a book; And in my heart casting down every idol and god imaginable (Zeus, Thor, Ra, Baal, Ishtar........). Yet Jesus said unto man, all manner of sins in the flesh shall be forgiven you, but there is one sin that shall not be forgiven.

I hope you get my picture. The workings of Satan, it is a very personal thing for each of us. It is why Paul tells us to put on the armor of God, to fight against the wiles of the devil. It is a spiritual warfare, but beware lest the devil use your armor against you. And when the man of Sin is destroyed at the brightness of his coming, a man of Faith arises with Christ and the Father rightfully sitting in the temple of God and reigning in his heart. The man of Faith with Christ in his heart needs no more armor to wear, and is fitted with a new garment, one suitable for a wedding. Amor may be suitable for a warfare, but it is not the garment of a bride.

We have seen many publicly, and there are certainly many more privately, who hold some sort of Jesus complex, or an Elijah complex thinking themselves to speak on behalf of God.

I findeth a scripture when Jesus and his disciples had been turned away from a certain city, and when they had left, the disciples turned to Jesus and asked if they should call down fire from heaven as did Elijah. And Jesus turned to his disciples and cautioned them; know you now what spirit you are of?


When the people asked Jesus what would be the sign of his coming, he said there would be no sign given except that of the sign of Jonah. Who happened to be another prophet of God. Do you know what the sign of Johan the prophet is?

 

[miamited]

Hi ezrider

Certainly a well thought out treatise, but I'm not convinced that's what the passage of Scripture in question here is intending to convey to us.

First of all, we are all the 'man of sin' that you are explaining. So that would have not been of any use to the new believers to explain to them about the return of Jesus, which is what the statement seems to be answering. What sense would it have made for Paul to write to the new believers in Thessalonica about an event that must happen before the return of the Lord, if that event was happening every day the sun came up.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Paul is referencing a particular event that is going to occur, that must happen. People were being deceived and their theology tickled concerning 'when' Christ would return. Paul answers their questions concerning the return of Christ with a statement that something must happen first. That first event is the revelation of the 'man of lawlessness'. Now, according to your understanding, that 'man of lawlessness' was being revealed every day as the new believers expressed their faith and hope in Jesus. It was themselves!!!

Doesn't fit the Scriptures, as I read it.

God bless,
Ted

 

[ezrider]

Hi @ezrider

Certainly a well thought out treatise, but I'm not convinced that's what the passage of Scripture in question here is intending to convey to us.

Well, I'll tell you what Ted, I am no longer looking for some antichrist. I no longer search the scripture so I can point to some antichrist. I am free to focus on Christ.

Now, according to your understanding, that 'man of lawlessness' was being revealed every day as the new believers expressed their faith and hope in Jesus. It was themselves!!!

The man of lawlessness is being revealed every day, as we see in Romans 1.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


New believers still find themselves under the schoolmaster first. As Paul said, the seed of grain must first fall to the ground and die, before it is raised up a new plant.

 

[miamited]

Hi ezrider,

Well, I'll tell you what Ted, I am no longer looking for some antichrist. I no longer search the scripture so I can point to some antichrist. I am free to focus on Christ.

While I applaud your heartfelt desire for Christ, the Scriptures tell us about a lot of events that have now happened and are yet to happen as we march inexorably towards the final days. I am also free to focus on and worship the Lord, but I also have a brain that works fast enough that I can also be aware of the 'whole' counsel of God. I would caution care though.

Throughout the old covenant God had given testimony of a coming Messiah who would deal with the sin of mankind. Over the years, God's people began to focus more on what they believed to be the true worship of God rather than studying the prophecies of the coming Messiah. They missed it! So, you're free to dismiss the words of God that speak of events other than just 'who' Jesus is, but Paul cautions us to study the Scriptures to show ourselves approved, and I believe he was speaking of the 'whole' of the Scriptures. Paul is also the one who wrote these words to us and I just don't see that God has ever really spent a lot of time having His prophets talk about unimportant things of no matter. Maybe I'm wrong.

The man of lawlessness is being revealed every day, as we see in Romans 1.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

That isn't what that says, but you're free to interpret it as such. Of course, if you want to get into a discussion concerning the reality, or not , of a final Antichrist, then we have a lot more Scripture than just this one place that speaks of his being revealed before the end of days, as it refers to 'what' must happen before the return of Jesus. There are a number of other Scriptures that speak of the Antichrist and the 'man of lawlessness'.

I hope that your devotion and worship of Jesus is true, and I applaud you for such a nature. But that isn't the end all be all of what the Scriptures reveal to us.

God bless,
Ted

 

[ezrider]

It’s hard for people of any age and culture to understand the concept of God’s eternal nature. The Psalmist uses the number 1,000 metaphorically and poetically to help people grasp this idea. He is not rigidly and literally speaking of 1,000 years.

So when we see 1,000 years of Satan’s bondage, or Christ’s millennial reign in Revelation, we can see that neither of these are a literal 1,000 years in duration.

Ok, I’m tired. That’s all for now. I'll explain reasons why in another post.

I understand the point you're trying to make about the length of the thousand years. It doesn't mean that is actually a literal thousand years, or even two thousand years... BUT it has an end, and this is what you have not addressed as of yet from the scripture: When the thousand years are expired.

No matter the length of the thousand years, there still appears to be an ending to it, when Satan is released to go forth and deceive the nations. So this period the scripture describes as a thousand years would appear to be finite.

 

[Stormcrow]

and this is what you have not addressed as of yet from the scripture: When the thousand years are expired.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was beholden to your timetable. I have a life away from the keyboard and have been living it with my daughter and granddaughter, whom I flew in to see me from Germany. I may not get back to addressing this for awhile, as I'm about to undertake a long road trip to see my other daughter and grandchild in another state.

Thanks for your understanding. I have not forgotten about this, it's simply not high on my list of things to do right now.