Wheat & Tares? Who Believes That These Are Open Sinners?

[mutzrein]

Hey guys (& Lovely)

We can’t separate ourselves from the world because we are in the world. But not of it of course. But this is not what this is talking about.

This ‘system’, this ‘religion’, this ‘harlot’ is sitting right under our noses. C’mon -think about it for a minute. What is it that distinguishes between those who walk by faith and those who follow a ‘system’. What is it that distinguishes between the wheat and the tares? What is it that distinguishes religion from relationship. What is it that distinguishes the bride of Christ from the harlot? What distinguishes the sheep and the goats? What is it that distinguishes between the righteous and the unrighteous?

Answer: Faith. And I’m not talking about a church or denomination.

You see the deception is this. The genuine and the counterfeit are co-existent, and there is only one way to know the difference. And it is only the genuine that knows the difference. And for this reason we cannot be part of the counterfeit – we must be separate.

The wheat and tares look the same even growing side by side. It is only the fruit that distinguishes them.
Those who walk by faith, are made righteous by their faith and do by nature the things required by the law. However those who I call ‘political Christians’ who believe they are made righteous by following the ‘party line’ are in reality unrighteous.
Those who are the bride of Christ have a real relationship with the bridegroom but the harlot is an imposter and would deceive many – except those who are in reality, the bride.

 

[Imagican]

Hey guys (& Lovely)

We can’t separate ourselves from the world because we are in the world. But not of it of course. But this is not what this is talking about.

This ‘system’, this ‘religion’, this ‘harlot’ is sitting right under our noses. C’mon -think about it for a minute. What is it that distinguishes between those who walk by faith and those who follow a ‘system’. What is it that distinguishes between the wheat and the tares? What is it that distinguishes religion from relationship. What is it that distinguishes the bride of Christ from the harlot? What distinguishes the sheep and the goats? What is it that distinguishes between the righteous and the unrighteous?

Answer: Faith. And I’m not talking about a church or denomination.

You see the deception is this. The genuine and the counterfeit are co-existent, and there is only one way to know the difference. And it is only the genuine that knows the difference. And for this reason we cannot be part of the counterfeit – we must be separate.

The wheat and tares look the same even growing side by side. It is only the fruit that distinguishes them.
Those who walk by faith, are made righteous by their faith and do by nature the things required by the law. However those who I call ‘political Christians’ who believe they are made righteous by following the ‘party line’ are in reality unrighteous.
Those who are the bride of Christ have a real relationship with the bridegroom but the harlot is an imposter and would deceive many – except those who are in reality, the bride.

SEE, now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about. This is exactly what I was trying to say. Mutz to the rescue once again. Amen my brother.

So many have been decieved that THIS has become the NORM in the 'Christian community' today. Not that there hasn't been this SAME deception since Christ died, but it is utterly rampant in our soceity TODAY.

The churches have done NO FAVORS to those that 'seek' the truth. They have offered 'their truth' which is to insist that one MUST be dependent upon THEM. When the 'truth' is that we ARE responsible for OUR OWN RELATIONSHIP and without it we simply follow 'men' teaching 'their own'.

Too many times have I heard it accused that those that DON'T attend 'a church' are NOT following the will of God. The indication being that these have 'bought into' the deception whole heartedly. And ANY TIME someone 'tries' to tell you that you MUST do ANYTHING 'their way' in order to 'be' a Christian, RUN AWAY.

There is ONLY ONE way that is truth and ours is to learn and understand THIS. Not to simply participate in man made ritual for the sake of 'a church' or churches. To join in and participate in the ONE true Church which is NOTHING more than the 'body of true' believers with CHRIST as the HEAD.

And what will actually separate the wheat from the tares is EXACTLY as offered in the quotation above. Faith and following the 'truth' through understanding. And 'what' IS this truth that we ARE able to have a PERFECT understanding of?

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

Hey guys (& Lovely)

We can’t separate ourselves from the world because we are in the world. But not of it of course. But this is not what this is talking about.

This ‘system’, this ‘religion’, this ‘harlot’ is sitting right under our noses. C’mon -think about it for a minute. What is it that distinguishes between those who walk by faith and those who follow a ‘system’. What is it that distinguishes between the wheat and the tares? What is it that distinguishes religion from relationship. What is it that distinguishes the bride of Christ from the harlot? What distinguishes the sheep and the goats? What is it that distinguishes between the righteous and the unrighteous?

Answer: Faith. And I’m not talking about a church or denomination.

You see the deception is this. The genuine and the counterfeit are co-existent, and there is only one way to know the difference. And it is only the genuine that knows the difference. And for this reason we cannot be part of the counterfeit – we must be separate.

The wheat and tares look the same even growing side by side. It is only the fruit that distinguishes them.
Those who walk by faith, are made righteous by their faith and do by nature the things required by the law. However those who I call ‘political Christians’ who believe they are made righteous by following the ‘party line’ are in reality unrighteous.
Those who are the bride of Christ have a real relationship with the bridegroom but the harlot is an imposter and would deceive many – except those who are in reality, the bride.

******
Hay Lovely, you see, he has some of it right, but he still doesn't know what you are not going to tell him, huh? :wink:

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

Mec, You say:
"There is ONLY ONE way that is truth and ours is to learn and understand THIS. Not to simply participate in man made ritual for the sake of 'a church' or churches. To join in and participate in the ONE true Church which is NOTHING more than the 'body of true' believers with CHRIST as the HEAD."

I do not disagree with this? What I see is even more than this, that Christ gave the 'keys' of His kingdom to the Virgin Fold that He established on earth. See the K.J. on the Matt. verse below. (conditional? surely, yet, this is still Truth! Revelation 2:5 & Matthew 18:14-18)

And in Acts 9, why did Christ send the blind Saul to His Church that He had just established & left behind? and for both, to be healed & BAPTISM!

And Christ's Words of John 10:16, Ephesians 4:5 with Revelation 18:4????

NO: To be 'IN CHRIST' of Romans 8:1 means that one has got to submit to His Words of OBEDIENCE! Acts 5:32 What if Saul had reasoned as my three friends here seem to do?

---John

 

[Imagican]

John,

I absolutely agree. But when you say 'submit', this is NOT something that we can DO. We must submit to The Spirit that WILL offer understanding and ONLY at this point will we 'begin' to be 'conformed' to the will of God and His Son.

Many believe that this IS something that we can do 'on our OWN'. Not so. For we ARE flesh and being flesh have NO power of our OWN except to BE what we ARE. It's ONLY through the power of God that we CAN be transformed through UNDERSTANDING into that which God wishes us to BE. Our example? His Son. When we allow Christ into our hearts, THEN we 'begin' to form an understanding of 'what' God wishes for us. And that? To BE His children to love and to RETURN this LOVE to HIM and EACH OTHER.

I want to add that we are NOT commanded to attend a 'denomination'. If so, I would like to KNOW which one. We are OBLIGATED to develope a personal relationship with God through His Son. At this point we are encouraged to 'gather in the BODY'. There is NO body except WHERE The Spirit DWELLS. I am sceptic as to 'where The Spirit TRULY dwells' as far as 'chruches' are concerned. For we are TOLD to 'test' EVERYTHING according to The Spirit. When I subject the churches to this 'test', I MOSTLY find them 'failing'. Not for MY SAKE for I truly WISH that things were NOT so. But I CANNOT and WILL NOT 'hide' from the TRUTH as it IS revealed.

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

I read your post, but I do not think that you understand these verses given in this one?? Christ did establish a 'fold' with keys of the 'heavenly' kingdom! Saul was sent by Christ into its earthly membership by baptism! :wink:

Now: Because it has again gone the way of old Israel, does nothing to negate the Truth that the doctrines are Virgin ones!

All that would mean, and require, is that their Revelation 2:5 candlestick would be replaced! FACT!! :wink:

SO??? On comes a required REPLACEMENT, from Revelation's seventh to Revelation's sixth fold of obedience. See Revelation 3:7-17. Check out verse 10 again and then verse 11. Remember that the 'House of God was judged first'. 1 Peter 4:17 then soon to follow is the 666 mark. Try Matthew 10:23.
*****

Mec, You say:
"There is ONLY ONE way that is truth and ours is to learn and understand THIS. Not to simply participate in man made ritual for the sake of 'a church' or churches. To join in and participate in the ONE true Church which is NOTHING more than the 'body of true' believers with CHRIST as the HEAD."

I do not disagree with this? What I see is even more than this, that Christ gave the 'keys' of His kingdom to the Virgin Fold that He established on earth. See the K.J. on the Matt. verse below. (conditional? surely, yet, this is still Truth! Revelation 2:5 & Matthew 18:14-18)

And in Acts 9, why did Christ send the blind Saul to His Church that He had just established & left behind? and for both, to be healed & BAPTISM!

And Christ's Words of John 10:16, Ephesians 4:5 with Revelation 18:4????

NO: To be 'IN CHRIST' of Romans 8:1 means that one has got to submit to His Words of OBEDIENCE! Acts 5:32 What if Saul had reasoned as my three friends here seem to do?

---John

 

[lovely]

Hey John,

John the Baptist wrote:

Hay Lovely, you see, he has some of it right, but he still doesn't know what you are not going to tell him, huh?

Maybe you are right after all, John. But, then there is this thread...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 20&start=0

and that makes me think that what I suspected from the moment I read this question was true....

mutzrein wrote:

Come out from among who Lovely?

It was a baited question to cause me to enter into vain disputes (Titus 3:9-11) The Word of God not being enough confirms this...

mutzrein wrote:

Wow Lovely - you have posted a lot of scripture. Seems like you have done a 'Solo' on me. I ask a question and you answer with scripture.

But, mutzrein, and I, have had this conversation: Jesus is God, the Son, who came in the flesh, and those who reject this truth are of the spirit of the antichrist. I have said this to him, and Imagican, before...along with you, and others, but they reject it. I thought better than to take the bait, and quoted the Word of God in response, and now there is an anti-Christ thread. A response back?

So, maybe he knew what I didn't tell him right from the first letter in the first baited question that was designed to draw me into vain disputes. He's been told, warned, prayed for, etc...and he remains where he is, along with others here, and I take no pleasure in that. Mutz, you believe it is some form of persecution, but it is actually love, and truth, and plea to hear the One who tells us to come out from among them, but I see continually engaging in this to be wrong. And here is the verse that points to this withdrawal that mutzrein, and imagican, deny...1 Timothy 6:3-5 verse 5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." We are to withdraw from false teachers, and false doctrine, that denies Christ is God and has come in the flesh.

 

[Imagican]

No, NO, PLEASE, not 'trinity' stuff again. I thought we had agreed to 'let that go'. If not, then please tell us, lovely, EXACTLY WHERE did 'trinity' come from? From God Himself, Jesus, or 'somewhere else'. You, YOU are the one that claims that those that deny what YOU believe are offering 'false doctrine'. Now I ask you to offer an answer to the question that I have posed. WHERE did "TRINITY" come from. Or do you even care. Is it something that has been so ingrained in your teaching that you don't even question it's validity?

I have offered NOTHING other than what CHRIST offered. We CANNOT separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters. And I don't mean ONLY IN CHRIST. I mean OUR NEIGHBORS. For one to believe this is to 'buy into' man-made theology for the sake of SELF rather than what we have been commanded to DO.

I have offered NOTHING perverted and I have NOTHING to gain through my offerings except the HOPE that there may be those that DON'T understand what has been revealed to ME that I am able to show even the tiniest bit of truth that may offer them the hope to find the faith in God through His
Son.

What I offer is the 'truth' WITHOUT the man-made crap that the churches have PERVERTED for the last two thousand years or so. We have the words of Christ Himself to show what state the religious order of HIS time had DEGRADED to. Do you 'think' that we have 'bettered ourselves'? Please don't say yes for that will only prove the vanity in such a statement. Fastings and prayer. How many do you suppose now days do this for more than a minute? Total devotion to God through His Son? I doubt that there's anyone here that even knows what that means.

And using such statements to try and avoid what one refuses to even contemplate is a pretty weak way to cast stones. I have attacked NO ONE INDIVIDUAL in my comments on this thread. I have tried to point out to a number of people that seem to think 'differently' than I KNOW the 'truth IS' that we CANNOT separate ourselves EXCEPT through the SPIRIT. The light that shines through those that allow Christ to live within them IS THE SEPARATION. God has NEVER expected us or anyone else to HIDE IN A CAVE and STARVE to death. If ANYTHING we are to 'get out there' and SPREAD The Word. NOT NEEDED for those that ALREADY HAVE IT.

Ours is to EMULATE Christ. What does that mean. EXACTLY what does it MEAN? It means to DO as Christ DID. Offer WHATEVER we CAN to WHOM EVER WE CAN. EVEN if that means to OFFER OUR VERY LIVES for OTHERS. And I DON'T mean those that are simply 'fellow' Christians or our families. IT MEANS THAT EVERY MAN AND WOMAN, EVERY CHILD ON THIS PLANET IS YOUR FAMILY. They are ALL your brothers and sisters. To deny this is to DENY Christ as far as what has been offered us. For He PLAINLY stated that what 'you' do to the least of those on this planet YOU HAVE DONE TO HIM.

This is what I have 'tried' to offer in most threads that I have posted in of late. There seems to be a TOTAL misunderstanding of the Christian community in general as to EXACTLY what 'being' a Christian is all about. The basics START with the understanding that I have offered here. This is what the 'babes' should understand. It gets MUCH deeper, but the basics are what ANYONE claiming to be anything other than a 'Christian through words only' MUST accept to 'grow' any further.

Chist did NOT say to 'love those that believe as YOU do as yourself'. He stated it plainly, 'love your NEIHBOR as yourself'. And I'll just bet that if I accused YOU of offering false doctrine that YOU would be quite hurt and/or upset. See what I mean?

God Bless you lovely and PLEASE, for YOUR sake, don't stop 'trying' to learn simply because it's EASIER to accept things AS YOU UNDERSTAND them 'right now'. There is MUCH to learn and you might be amazed as to WHO God may send to you to offer it. Ask and you SHALL RECEIVE, KNOCK AND IT WILL BE OPENED. We simply MUST be ready to accept that which is offered though. God offers but it's up to US to accept.

I have found many of your replies on these threads to be well thought out and very wise at times. I know that you are 'seeking' the truth for it is OBVIOUS in what you have offered that there has been MUCH revealed to you. But there is MUCH MORE and that is the goal now. And the most important key to understanding is the understanding that we are but 'beginners' in this class. That is WHY there is 'a body'. Each has what they have to offer to the 'whole'. And not a 'single' part is a whole within itself, (try living as an elbow).

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely & JTB

I’m not exactly sure what you folks are talking about in reference to my posts. Supposedly there is something I don’t know that you are not saying. That’s OK I guess coz all I want to do is to reason with you on the elements of the gospel.

I have only just seen your posts in this thread since posting in the anti-christ thread. And I certainly have not intended to bait you in this or that thread which incidentally I have never had any thought of connection as far as your posts are concerned until you mentioned it. It actually mystifies me, the approach that you seem to be taking.

Can we then discuss the issues that have been raised and perhaps without the accusation of false doctrine and being of the antichrist?

If there is something that you believe is wrong with what I have said in this thread PLEASE let me know what it is and if possible offer scripture to support your position.

As far as just quoting scripture is concerned, I appreciate the value of scripture but you cannot surely expect everyone to agree with your every interpretation of it merely because you quote it. Surely this is what reasoning together is about.

But I kind of get the feeling that you think I’m trying to convince you of something that if I were successful, would somehow leave you (or anyone else) vulnerable as far as your salvation is concerned.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know that no-one is made righteous by what they do because Jesus IS our righteousness. And how are we made righteous? Through faith in Christ and this is a gift from God. So if you believe that your righteousness is the righteousness that God requires, how could anything I say persuade you otherwise? I certainly cannot or would not want it otherwise.

UNLESS of course your righteousness is not by faith in Christ but in a certain doctrine.

 

[John the Baptist]

Lovely & JTB

I’m not exactly sure what you folks are talking about in reference to my posts. Supposedly there is something I don’t know that you are not saying. That’s OK I guess coz all I want to do is to reason with you on the elements of the gospel.

I have only just seen your posts in this thread since posting in the anti-christ thread. And I certainly have not intended to bait you in this or that thread which incidentally I have never had any thought of connection as far as your posts are concerned until you mentioned it. It actually mystifies me, the approach that you seem to be taking.

Can we then discuss the issues that have been raised and perhaps without the accusation of false doctrine and being of the antichrist?

If there is something that you believe is wrong with what I have said in this thread PLEASE let me know what it is and if possible offer scripture to support your position.

As far as just quoting scripture is concerned, I appreciate the value of scripture but you cannot surely expect everyone to agree with your every interpretation of it merely because you quote it. Surely this is what reasoning together is about.

But I kind of get the feeling that you think I’m trying to convince you of something that if I were successful, would somehow leave you (or anyone else) vulnerable as far as your salvation is concerned.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know that no-one is made righteous by what they do because Jesus IS our righteousness. And how are we made righteous? Through faith in Christ and this is a gift from God. So if you believe that your righteousness is the righteousness that God requires, how could anything I say persuade you otherwise? I certainly cannot or would not want it otherwise.

UNLESS of course your righteousness is not by faith in Christ but in a certain doctrine.

***
J/t/B/ here:
'certain doctrines' sounds odd??? : 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4

Do you think that all of God's Testings from cover to cover of 'The Book' are not the 'bottom line' of FAITH?? Hebrews 11:13 and that whole book.

Read Hebrews 12:4-8, and this gives direct clear-cut language for who will be saved! See verse 8 & try these in the K.J.

And does not all True & False Faith boil down to James two thoughts about our claim of Faith? James 2:26 or James 2:20. Compare the Bottom line of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the question of anyone having Real Loving Faith 'IN CHRIST'. :fadein:

 

[Imagican]

But John, THESE are works WROUGHT BY The Spirit. For WORKS performed for the 'sake' of 'believing' that one is ABLE to 'be righteous' are FALSE works just as such faith would be 'false faith' or better named 'faith in SELF'.

The works COME as a result of one being conformed BY The Spirit, NOT as something we are able to DO 'in the flesh'.

It's like this: If we 'give' out of 'obligation', (as often the Jews obeyed the law out of obligation), do you truly believe that the 'heart' of the 'giver' is conformed? If we 'love' out of obligation, do you truly believe that the heart of the 'lover' has been conformed?

We ARE flesh, and as flesh, are bound by the 'rules' of the flesh. ONLY when we 'become flesh AND Spirit' are we ABLE to conform to the 'image' of Christ.

So, the scripture IS correct, but NOT in the sense that you 'seem' to WISH it to BE.

Faith without works IS dead. For when works are NOT apparent in those that 'claim' faith, it is NOTHING other than an indication that their 'faith' has waivered or even 'been LOST'. For those that DO have faith will BE conformed so long as their faith remains intact

We ARE a 'work in progress' so long as we live and our faith continues. We WILL grow so long as we 'remain' faithful. And the longer that we live WITH our faith intact, the MORE works we are ABLE to perform 'through' The Spirit. But, as faith without works is DEAD, so TOO would this be true: Works WITHOUT FAITH mean little if NOTHING. For to perform WORKS without there being the 'purpose' of the works, (LOVE), can be NOTHING but 'self' once again. For there ARE many that DO for others in order to BENEFIT themselves. Either by the impression that they leave upon others by doing 'works', or for the simple sake of being able to 'think' that they are righteous, (which we KNOW that we are UNABLE to BE so long as we are in these bodies), therefore making this NOTHING other than 'false pride'.

What I see in this 'misunderstanding' is the 'influence' of the churches RATHER than the influence of The Church. For the churches have taught that we ARE able to BE righteous 'through' our works. TOTALLY contrary to words of Christ Himself in that there is NOT ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. Rings a bit of Catholic influence, huh? Carried over into the major denominations since their 'separation'. And WHY? For this SIMPLE reason: When the 'so called' Protestants separated, they had hundreds and hundreds of years of 'brain-washing' that they were unable to EVEN SEE, that they simply carried WITH THEM, as baggage, when the separation took place. And even to this day MANY are STILL unable to 'see' that there IS a 'better way'. Still stuck, as Paul accused in a number of his letters, in 'babe mode', rather than GROWING UP in Christ. So, if NOT from the churchs, WHERE does this 'false teaching' come from?

I know, I know, the influence of the churches is so ingrained EVEN today that my words are all but LOST on 'deaf ears'. So be it. But, I HAVE made the effort to 'offer' this understanding. NOW, are we willing to listen? Probably NOT. For THIS IS the nature of the flesh.

Love and Blessings my brothers and sisters,

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

But John, THESE are works WROUGHT BY The Spirit. For WORKS performed for the 'sake' of 'believing' that one is ABLE to 'be righteous' are FALSE works just as such faith would be 'false faith' or better named 'faith in SELF'.

The works COME as a result of one being conformed BY The Spirit, NOT as something we are able to DO 'in the flesh'.

**
Ha! But the spiritual nature tell's the flesh what to do,huh?
Who is dis/agreening with that??
**

It's like this: If we 'give' out of 'obligation', (as often the Jews obeyed the law out of obligation), do you truly believe that the 'heart' of the 'giver' is conformed? If we 'love' out of obligation, do you truly believe that the heart of the 'lover' has been conformed?

**
You mean that those saved there (in Heb. 11) were saved another way, or any different way than us'ins? No way! Hebrews 11:13! Even see what faith Cain passed up. Genesis 4:7 and the heart of these Heb. ones?? There is no other way to be conformed than by 'this' Faith, Act 4:12 & then only by Acts 5:32. You think that Christ Words of John 3:3-8 had a beginning??? Again see Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 where the Godhead answered before 'we' could botch the question up! :wink: Christ's asks simply, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." And of course the only ones who have [ever] Loved Christ, are the ones Born Again! If one had this love from some other sourse, there was no need for Christ to die.
**

We ARE flesh, and as flesh, are bound by the 'rules' of the flesh. ONLY when we 'become flesh AND Spirit' are we ABLE to conform to the 'image' of Christ.

So, the scripture IS correct, but NOT in the sense that you 'seem' to WISH it to BE.

***
What have you r-e-a-d into my post?? See Philipians 4:13, 2 Corinthians 12:9. Are you saying that I do not believe this????
***

Faith without works IS dead. For when works are NOT apparent in those that 'claim' faith, it is NOTHING other than an indication that their 'faith' has waivered or even 'been LOST'. For those that DO have faith will BE conformed so long as their faith remains intact

We ARE a 'work in progress' so long as we live and our faith continues. We WILL grow so long as we 'remain' faithful. And the longer that we live WITH our faith intact, the MORE works we are ABLE to perform 'through' The Spirit. But, as faith without works is DEAD, so TOO would this be true: Works WITHOUT FAITH mean little if NOTHING. For to perform WORKS without there being the 'purpose' of the works, (LOVE), can be NOTHING but 'self' once again. For there ARE many that DO for others in order to BENEFIT themselves. Either by the impression that they leave upon others by doing 'works', or for the simple sake of being able to 'think' that they are righteous, (which we KNOW that we are UNABLE to BE so long as we are in these bodies), therefore making this NOTHING other than 'false pride'.

What I see in this 'misunderstanding' is the 'influence' of the churches RATHER than the influence of The Church. For the churches have taught that we ARE able to BE righteous 'through' our works. TOTALLY contrary to words of Christ Himself in that there is NOT ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. Rings a bit of Catholic influence, huh? Carried over into the major denominations since their 'separation'. And WHY? For this SIMPLE reason: When the 'so called' Protestants separated, they had hundreds and hundreds of years of 'brain-washing' that they were unable to EVEN SEE, that they simply carried WITH THEM, as baggage, when the separation took place. And even to this day MANY are STILL unable to 'see' that there IS a 'better way'. Still stuck, as Paul accused in a number of his letters, in 'babe mode', rather than GROWING UP in Christ. So, if NOT from the churchs, WHERE does this 'false teaching' come from?

I know, I know, the influence of the churches is so ingrained EVEN today that my words are all but LOST on 'deaf ears'. So be it. But, I HAVE made the effort to 'offer' this understanding. NOW, are we willing to listen? Probably NOT. For THIS IS the nature of the flesh.

Love and Blessings my brothers and sisters,

MEC

***
Mec, you will need to tell me clearly what my 'posts' misunderstanding is! :wink:
**

 

[Imagican]

Maybe it's 'just my misunderstanding' of your posts John.

Let's see if we can clear up the misunderstanding, if there is any.

I take it from your posts that you 'believe' that to follow Christ 'in Spirit', that we MUST abide BY the commandments of Christ. Is this true? Is this an 'accurate' representation of your understanding?

If so, then I contend that THIS is where the misunderstanding lies. For we are NOT able to abide BY the commandments of Christ. We MUST abide by the commandments THROUGH Christ. For to even 'think' that we are able to live by law or commandment is to invalidate the gift that has been offered.

I'll explain;

Christ need NOT have even come to this Earth and die if we were ABLE to abide by law or commandment. He came and died so that THROUGH this death we NOW have The Spirit which was 'left behind'. ONLY through The Spirit are we able to Plaease God by allowing His Son to LIVE IN US.

Once this 'takes place', (the acceptance of Christ into one's heart), at this POINT ONLY are we able to 'begin' to conform to the will of the Father, Our God.

Our effort? Little as far as controlling our NATURE, which IS to sin. MUCH concerning faith and the desire to develope a relationship with the Father through His Son.

Now, where do we 'start'? We start by accepting. We continue through faith. We grow ONLY as the relationship grows. I am UNABLE to resist my nature on my own. I am powerless to BECOME what God wishes for me to be ON MY OWN. I can do NOTHING that pleases God ON MY OWN. ONLY through Christ living within my heart am I able to be seen as ANYTHING other than WHAT I AM. A lowlife sinner. An ENEMY of God. A follower of the WORLD and through the world, SATAN.

One thing has been purposely left out so far. It is the beginning of understanding what ALL this means. Can you offer what is missing John? You will probably offer 'obedience'. I think that this is WRONG. For obedience ONLY comes through understanding. Now WHAT is the understanding that I have left out so far? It's a simple question, really, to ANY that choose Christ over death. I'll await your response.

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

Maybe it's 'just my misunderstanding' of your posts John.

Let's see if we can clear up the misunderstanding, if there is any.

I take it from your posts that you 'believe' that to follow Christ 'in Spirit', that we MUST abide BY the commandments of Christ. Is this true? Is this an 'accurate' representation of your understanding?

John here: Surely, a Born Again Mind Loves Christ! And the opposite is seen in 1 John 2:4 Mind is now over body with the provided Grace of Christ. Philipians 4:13

If so, then I contend that THIS is where the misunderstanding lies. For we are NOT able to abide BY the commandments of Christ. We MUST abide by the commandments THROUGH Christ. For to even 'think' that we are able to live by law or commandment is to invalidate the gift that has been offered.

I'll explain;

Christ need NOT have even come to this Earth and die if we were ABLE to abide by law or commandment. He came and died so that THROUGH this death we NOW have The Spirit which was 'left behind'. ONLY through The Spirit are we able to Plaease God by allowing His Son to LIVE IN US.

Once this 'takes place', (the acceptance of Christ into one's heart), at this POINT ONLY are we able to 'begin' to conform to the will of the Father, Our God.

Our effort? Little as far as controlling our NATURE, which IS to sin. MUCH concerning faith and the desire to develope a relationship with the Father through His Son.

Well now, just perhaps we are saying something of the same thing? Not quite maybe. The 'Holy Spirit Strives with all mankind' if need be. See Genesis 6:3. Yet, we need to know that Romans 2:14-15 finds Gentils even saved who never knew Christ or the Holy Spirit as we understand them! Yet, these ones had the Covenant of the Godhead written in their hearts! Born Again by the Masters creation, and got there by some understanding of 'His' Nature. You know, even birds have more morality than some humans.

Now, where do we 'start'? We start by accepting. We continue through faith. We grow ONLY as the relationship grows. I am UNABLE to resist my nature on my own. I am powerless to BECOME what God wishes for me to be ON MY OWN. I can do NOTHING that pleases God ON MY OWN. ONLY through Christ living within my heart am I able to be seen as ANYTHING other than WHAT I AM. A lowlife sinner. An ENEMY of God. A follower of the WORLD and through the world, SATAN.

We agree on this. That is why one requires the new Birth from above. Yet, we need to know that mankind has not lost all of the willpower, talent & brainpower yet. Case in point is for any to quite smoking lets say? And the party is not a Christian. All good things come from God! Yet, the individual still has this power to quite the habit, even though he gives no credit to God for creating him with this power that even 'some' of sinful mankind still has! He might even boast and say that I quite this habit? And the same power is still ours to make in accepting Christ in the first place. Only now, we have all, & any extra additional Grace needed when needed.
I do not buy into the thought that Christ will give me power where no effort is made on my own when He already has supplied me these essentials! (and that I still retain) Got that?? :wink:

One thing has been purposely left out so far. It is the beginning of understanding what ALL this means. Can you offer what is missing John? You will probably offer 'obedience'. I think that this is WRONG. For obedience ONLY comes through understanding. Now WHAT is the understanding that I have left out so far? It's a simple question, really, to ANY that choose Christ over death. I'll await your response.

Obedience? What was the question to Cain in Genesis 4:6-7? No one will have the Holy Ghost without fully 100% submission to Him in the first place! This is the Covenant agreement! Who can get to first base without Christ? It is impossible! But the power does not come until the faith step is taken. The ones of Hebrews 6:1-5 KNOW (the positives only) this Faith! Yet, not until they were Born Again did they know except by faith! OK? ---John

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Perhaps we ARE more in agreement than I first assumed. It was the 'way' that you offered the scripture concerning faith and works that seemed to be offering that 'WE' are able to perform these works 'on our own'.

And John, let me offer this:

The most IMPORTANT 'works' that we are capable of is learning WHO God and Christ ARE and what they desire of us. This is; that God WANTS us to KNOW Him and His Son and to offer in return WHAT HAS BEEN OFFERED. That being the MOST important thing that we CAN know. It is THIS understanding that is capable of 'transforming us' from a 'carnal state' into an 'holy one'.

I truly believe that the MAJORITY of the 'works' refered to in The Word are NOT so much 'obeying' ANY commandments but TWO. The two that God and Christ have been trying to convey since Adam and Eve. For we know that Christ stated that ALL the law and ALL the prophets hang on THESE TWO. And what do I refer to? Love. THAT is EXACTLY what we are commanded to develope a PERFECT understanding of. For once this IS accomplished, EVERYTHIING else FALL into place.

But John, what I witness is the FACT that many seem ONLY to have a 'love' for themselves and those that they CHOOSE to love. Is this what we were commanded? Not hardly.

Now, concerning sin and separation. Yes, sin is capable of 'obstructing' the quickness of the relationship that IS possible without sin. But sin does NOT have to be eliminated from ones walk in order to walk the walk. What we DO NEED to do is RECOGNIZE the sins in our lives and accept the power of God to 'change them'.

A case in point:

David, King David, was a 'man after God's own heart'. Now, how could this be? For David was a prolific SINNER. Disobedient, willful, prideful, adulterer, murderer, etc..... We have the story of his life and many of the ATROCIOUS sins that he committed against man AND GOD HIMSELF. So, how could it be that THIS was a 'man after God's own heart'? The answer,
HE LOVED GOD REGARDLESS. Each time that we know that he committed grave sins, he dropped to his knees and begged God to forgive him.

So what, many may think. Hardly, my friends, for this is the KEY to offering God what He desires. Understanding is the begining of ones ability to 'offer ANYTHING'. For IF we are unaware of what is NEEDED, then it is next to IMPOSSIBLE for us to offer ANYTHING of consequence.

Why offer this? For the simple sake of those that 'don't seem' to understand it. It is MUCH more important that we offer to GOD what IS God's than ANYTHING else that we are 'capable of DOING'. For once we DO this, we WILL begin to understand. And through this understanding be able to be 'formed' into that which we are SUPPOSED TO BE.

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

A case in point:

Mec posts:
"David, King David, was a 'man after God's own heart'. Now, how could this be? For David was a prolific SINNER. Disobedient, willful, prideful, adulterer, murderer, etc..... We have the story of his life and many of the ATROCIOUS sins that he committed against man AND GOD HIMSELF. So, how could it be that THIS was a 'man after God's own heart'? The answer,
HE LOVED GOD REGARDLESS. Each time that we know that he committed grave sins, he dropped to his knees and begged God to forgive him."

John here:
I question if David was Born Again before he wrote the Psalm? Regardless, it is not his words, but Christ Word of 'Inspiration'. I do not see that David was much different than King Saul in his youth. (see 1 Samuel 9:21, 1 Samuel 10:6-9, 1 Samuel 10:21-24. And yes, I know that this was the starting of Saul's kingship!) But both started out in good shape in humility.

The Goliath thing found David mocked by his brothers. Something like the brothers of Joseph. I find that David was not Joseph! 2 Samuel 12:12-14. Yet, regardless, one never knows how close both David & even Saul of Acts 9 in the N.T. came to committing the 'Great transgression'?? It took time for David to be Born Again as I see it. And King Saul matured in the opposite direction. 1 Samuel 28:3 on. (1 Samuel 16:14)

I find lessons in all of these studies! Even Joseph's brothers in later years learned to weep the tears of repentance! :wink: And David? When confronted with your facts? Notice Psalms 19:13 (read from Psalm 19:7-14) in the K.J. He (David) tells all... that sin is dangerous, but presumptuous sinning leads one on towards the 'Great Transgression'! Compare James 1:15 with 1 John 5:16-17.

And even Peter and the twelve needed (were required to be) to Be Born Again! Notice the K.J. in Luke 22:31-34. Zero in on verse 32 and the Masters Words of 'and when thou art CONVERTED, strengthen the brethren.'

And when was that to take place? See Matthew 26:69-75. And zero in on verse 75! 'And Peter went out and WEPT BITTERLY.'! Again in Acts 7 & 8 we see Saul (later on Paul) the Christian murderer. And Acts 9:1-6 we see a Born Again change take place! :wink:

Notice Acts 9:6 Christ told him what he was to [DO]!! The decision was up to him to make! (like Cain, David, King Saul, Peter, and himself) Notice what the Master required of him in Acts 9:17-18!

Now: One more, most all of the Revelation 17:5 ones are passing their probational time period as did their Mature Fold! I say [most], because there is still 'some' time found for 'individuals' as seen in Revelation 18:4.

---John

 

[mutzrein]

***
J/t/B/ here:
'certain doctrines' sounds odd??? : 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4

Do you think that all of God's Testings from cover to cover of 'The Book' are not the 'bottom line' of FAITH?? Hebrews 11:13 and that whole book.

Read Hebrews 12:4-8, and this gives direct clear-cut language for who will be saved! See verse 8 & try these in the K.J.

And does not all True & False Faith boil down to James two thoughts about our claim of Faith? James 2:26 or James 2:20. Compare the Bottom line of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the question of anyone having Real Loving Faith 'IN CHRIST'. :fadein:

Thanks John.

Bear with me because I would like to talk with you about this.

Firstly, why does 'certain doctrines' sound odd? Some folks believe that it is necessary to embrace certain doctrines in order to be 'saved' or to have the right 'spirit'. Invariably a particular verse or two are used and these are often applied out of context and without understanding the fuller counsel of scripture.

Do you agree with this or not?

 

[John the Baptist]

***
J/t/B/ here:
'certain doctrines' sounds odd??? : 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4

Do you think that all of God's Testings from cover to cover of 'The Book' are not the 'bottom line' of FAITH?? Hebrews 11:13 and that whole book.

Read Hebrews 12:4-8, and this gives direct clear-cut language for who will be saved! See verse 8 & try these in the K.J.

And does not all True & False Faith boil down to James two thoughts about our claim of Faith? James 2:26 or James 2:20. Compare the Bottom line of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the question of anyone having Real Loving Faith 'IN CHRIST'. :fadein:

Thanks John.

Bear with me because I would like to talk with you about this.

Firstly, why does 'certain doctrines' sound odd? Some folks believe that it is necessary to embrace certain doctrines in order to be 'saved' or to have the right 'spirit'. Invariably a particular verse or two are used and these are often applied out of context and without understanding the fuller counsel of scripture.

Do you agree with this or not?

*****
John here: I will await your response to what I was refereing to? :wink:

"Mec posts:
"David, King David, was a 'man after God's own heart'. Now, how could this be? For David was a prolific SINNER. Disobedient, willful, prideful, adulterer, murderer, etc..... We have the story of his life and many of the ATROCIOUS sins that he committed against man AND GOD HIMSELF. So, how could it be that THIS was a 'man after God's own heart'? The answer,
HE LOVED GOD REGARDLESS. Each time that we know that he committed grave sins, he dropped to his knees and begged God to forgive him."
_____

John asks: Are you suggesting in this that God did not mean what He said in Exodus 4:24-26 to Moses??? Compare Genesis 17:12-14. It seemed in Exodus 2:21-25 that Moses was to be Obedient to the Covenant of Circumcism! (or be rejected)

NO: As with David's conditional 'Decision', Moses also would have been rejected as was King Saul, if either of them had not been 'IN LOVE ENOUGH WITH THEIR MASTER'!
(compare Revelation 3:16-17's degree of professed LOVE, and this is the whole candlestick!! ) And this Master was even then God/Christ! See Acts 7:37-38!!

So, was Moses not a man [like David], 'man after God's own heart'? This is true of all of the ones that are OBEDIENT as I see it! Or is God a 'respecter of persons'? Not hardly. 'If' Moses had of stayed persuaded by his wife Ziporah, and had not followed through with the
covenant that he accepted from God, he too would have went the way of Cain and others! Genesis 4:7 (or us!) All of the LORD'S COVENANTS are CONDITIONAL ones between He & us, (our agreement only can fail) and only He can altar them! (sure, the Bible would have recorded it differently if that had been the case)

OK: Who was the anti/Christ in Genesis 4:7, and why was this so?

---John

 

[mutzrein]

JTB - I don’t know what you are saying. You write a few sentences, intersperse it with scriptural references and expect me to understand what you are saying.

What is it that you disagree with what I have written?

 

[Imagican]

Ok John,

You contend that David was 'special' to God for his obedience. Yet we see NUMEROUS examples of his DISOBEDIENCE. You seem to be of the understading that David 'grew out' of this somehow. Perhaps this IS true. For each of us MUST grow in order to become what is desired for us.

I disagree here. For David was OBVIOUSLY 'special' to God from the beginning of our introduction to him through The Word. I still offer that what 'made' David 'special' was NOT his obedience but how he 'dealt' with his DISOBEDIENCE. KNOWING that it was needed that he offer repentance and NOT simply 'turn his back on God' as so many have done and DO. THIS is what allowed God to experience the love that David had for Him. And THIS is the 'why' David WAS a man after God's own heart. His LOVE, for God and for his people.

Mutz,

I don't think John has really addressed your questions yet. I too have found his method of witness to be confusing at times, BUT, if one 'does' read the quotes that he offers there is USUALLY much wisdom contained. I don't agree with everything that he offers but I must admit that his comments are not as random as they sometimes 'seem' at first glance.

Blessings Bros,

MEC