Wheat & Tares? Who Believes That These Are Open Sinners?

[mutzrein]

Thanks MEC - I guess it must be the way God made me. I cannot process data very easily, the way JTB presents it. I'm probably bordering on dyslexia or something. Seems like the bible is the only book I can read easily - which I guess is not such a bad thing with all the tripe in written form being presented as truth, by many. I have to rely more on the voice of God rather than the word of man.

Thanks again mate

 

[lovely]

Imagican wrote:

I too have found his method of witness to be confusing at times, BUT, if one 'does' read the quotes that he offers there is USUALLY much wisdom contained. I don't agree with everything that he offers but I must admit that his comments are not as random as they sometimes 'seem' at first glance.

This is very true, MEC. The Lord bless you.

 

[John the Baptist]

JTB - I don’t know what you are saying. You write a few sentences, intersperse it with scriptural references and expect me to understand what you are saying.

What is it that you disagree with what I have written?

____

Mutz said: Thanks John.

Bear with me because I would like to talk with you about this.

Firstly, why does 'certain doctrines' sound odd? Some folks believe that it is necessary to embrace certain doctrines in order to be 'saved' or to have the right 'spirit'. Invariably a particular verse or two are used and these are often applied out of context and without understanding the fuller counsel of scripture.

Do you agree with this or not?

_____

John says: Both yes & no. Matthew 28:20 John 3:3-8 Isaiah 8:20 1 John 2:4 But your posts present nothing but mans words, to back up what is being questioned.

And the no? Burning eternally in hell. But, as you say.
Now, does one build a house without a hammer? Or a 'level'?? Hang a piece of 4'x 8' sheet-rock that way, and you have cracks at both the top & bottom! And will any one look for a post like that even if one claims to be a Christian carpenter?

 

[John the Baptist]

Ok John, ...

"I disagree here. For David was OBVIOUSLY 'special' to God from the beginning of our introduction to him through The Word. I still offer that what 'made' David 'special' was NOT his obedience but how he 'dealt' with his DISOBEDIENCE. KNOWING that it was needed that he offer repentance and NOT simply 'turn his back on God' as so many have done and DO. THIS is what allowed God to experience the love that David had for Him. And THIS is the 'why' David WAS a man after God's own heart. His LOVE, for God and for his people."

****

John here:
You could be right. Perhaps God was seeing David in foreknowledge and having this penned? But I do not think so! :wink:
One reason is because of other examples from the Word, such as the original liar from the start. It it seen by me (right or wrong?) that Lucifer before sinning, must of had been Very Precious to the Godhead from the day that he was created. Even though they knew even before he was created, that he would rebel & even that 'earth' would find much suffering and a huge loss of souls!

OK: Did the Godhead LOVE Lucifer any less while knowing this? Did they hold a grudge all the while that he was Obedient, full well knowing what he would become??? I do not believe that.

One more thought on that. He held the highest position in heaven of the created ones, as I see it. Did God LOVE him, to give him this position?
I look at it this way also. Adam & Eve's first son made mature shipwreck also! Did they love him? How about after the fatal decision was made and he killed Abel? And do you think that they had second thoughts of what their disobedience had caused??

Perhaps here is where there might be some mis-understanding? In the Word of God we see the Word sin. (see 1 John 3:4 for the Eternal Covenant!) But, we do not many times know what the Word teaches about it. Hardly ever does one even see considered 1 John 5:16-17 or James 1:15 because it is above their teachings & understanding. If one fully understood the difference between the the 'start' & the 'ending', they could grasp the study of eternal life better.

David fully understood this as he recorded in Psalms 19:13 in the K.J. If one started with verse 7-13 they will see a required Truth for knowledge. Maturity in Obedience is what Salvation is all about! Christ has supplied all the Tools that are needed! Philippians 4:13 But submission comes from us. Genesis 6:3

Key Words are 'Presumptuous sin' & 'The Great transgression'! THINK! :wink:

 

[Imagican]

Agreed, there is sin that is nothing more than disobedience that 'hinders' one's walk rather than destroy. But this Ultimate sin can be nothing other than COMPLETE disobedience; a refusal to accept Christ OR God. And, there are those that have accepted that BOTH exist and STILL choose to work 'against Them'. These would be that sin which leads to DEATH, NO?

And WHAT IS death? Is it NOTHING more, nothing less than the eternal separation from God? Many teach that it is a 'burning in hell forever'. Is this what 'death' is? I don't think so. There are those that will be punished for their sins but the indication is that God punishes those that He loves. This punishment refered to is punishment HERE, while we LIVE.

Mutz has tried to offer, (and I believe quite eloquently), the punishment for sin. And also that there are certainly those that are deserving of NO punishment, (those that never learn or learned about God), and that these most likely will simply CEASE to exist upon the death of their flesh. That, my friends, is PUNISHMENT ENOUGH when we consider that these too COULD HAVE obtained eternal life instead. Just like Satan, when it is all sorted out he WILL be UTTERLY separated from God AND man in the end. Nothing above, NOTHING below. Abandoned by and empty of light.

No John, I believe it's TOTALLY about the RELATIONSHIP. What God has desired for man AND HIMSELF since creation is a workable and positive relationship with man. But there ARE certain things that MAN MUST learn in order for this to be even remotely possible. The MAIN THING is LOVE. Once we 'begin' to understand LOVE, we begin to understand God. And through this understanding are we able to develope a relationship WITH God. Everything else is simply achedemic. Yes, there is truth that offers a 'deeper' understanding, BUT, what matters MOST is an understanding of LOVE, for without this, there is NO 'deeper' understanding of the 'TRUTH'.

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

Agreed, there is sin that is nothing more than disobedience that 'hinders' one's walk rather than destroy. But this Ultimate sin can be nothing other than COMPLETE disobedience; a refusal to accept Christ OR God. And, there are those that have accepted that BOTH exist and STILL choose to work 'against Them'. These would be that sin which leads to DEATH, NO?

**
Did you read the verses of Psalms 19:7-13? If that can't prayerfully give you your answer, just be faithful until you can understand what SINNING PRESUMPTOUSLY means.
**

And WHAT IS death? Is it NOTHING more, nothing less than the eternal separation from God? Many teach that it is a 'burning in hell forever'. Is this what 'death' is? I don't think so. There are those that will be punished for their sins but the indication is that God punishes those that He loves. This punishment refered to is punishment HERE, while we LIVE.

**
NO: Hell is real, sinneres will be judged and punished according to their works. Ecclestiastes 12:13-14. But it will be a hot hell, where these second death ones are to be blotted from eternity! See Obadiah 1:16
**

Mutz has tried to offer, (and I believe quite eloquently), the punishment for sin. And also that there are certainly those that are deserving of NO punishment, (those that never learn or learned about God), and that these most likely will simply CEASE to exist upon the death of their flesh. That, my friends, is PUNISHMENT ENOUGH when we consider that these too COULD HAVE obtained eternal life instead. Just like Satan, when it is all sorted out he WILL be UTTERLY separated from God AND man in the end. Nothing above, NOTHING below. Abandoned by and empty of light.

**
Quite good reasoning from Mutz on that? Luke 12:47-48 tells who will suffer the longest! Christ's own Words.
**

No John, I believe it's TOTALLY about the RELATIONSHIP. What God has desired for man AND HIMSELF since creation is a workable and positive relationship with man. But there ARE certain things that MAN MUST learn in order for this to be even remotely possible. The MAIN THING is LOVE. Once we 'begin' to understand LOVE, we begin to understand God. And through this understanding are we able to develope a relationship WITH God. Everything else is simply achedemic. Yes, there is truth that offers a 'deeper' understanding, BUT, what matters MOST is an understanding of LOVE, for without this, there is NO 'deeper' understanding of the 'TRUTH'.

MEC

**
The above? I agree with that up to a point. For there is no one that can Love God fully, without being recreated. (BORN AGAIN) Did Adam loose the first Love ? Surely. Did he lose all of the Love for God, NO! Yet, did he have enough love for God, to save himself???

That is the point! Even sinners who are not saved, have love! Many even show much more love for others than do professed Christians. Yet, to be saved, one MUST BE BORN AGAIN WITH THIS [FIRST] UNFALLEN LOVE! And as stated before, this is only the [REQUIRED] starting point! Again, read Revelation 3:16-17's scale of Christ's required LOVE!

--John

 

[Imagican]

Absolutely John, what IS required AFTER 're-birth' IS CONTINUED 'FAITH'. WE MUST remain faithful in order to grow. THAT was my point to begin with. There is NOTHING that we can do on our OWN that IS righteous. NOTHING. For you have pointed out, even those LOST are capable of sharing love in THE manner of the 'flesh'. It IS the 'learning' of 'true' love that makes the difference. And YES, re-birth IS needed in order to BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND IT. But, once re-birth takes place, there is ONLY ONE PURPOSE. I know, there is SO MUCH 'seemingly offered in The Word that it SEEMS like there is MUCH that we need to learn. NOT TRUE. What we NEED to learn for EVERYTHING ELSE to 'fall into place' IS LOVE. Love for God above ALL else, and love for each other at the COST of 'self'.

MEC

 

[John the Baptist]

Absolutely John, what IS required AFTER 're-birth' IS CONTINUED 'FAITH'. WE MUST remain faithful in order to grow. THAT was my point to begin with. There is NOTHING that we can do on our OWN that IS righteous. NOTHING. For you have pointed out, even those LOST are capable of sharing love in THE manner of the 'flesh'. It IS the 'learning' of 'true' love that makes the difference. And YES, re-birth IS needed in order to BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND IT. But, once re-birth takes place, there is ONLY ONE PURPOSE. I know, there is SO MUCH 'seemingly offered in The Word that it SEEMS like there is MUCH that we need to learn. NOT TRUE. What we NEED to learn for EVERYTHING ELSE to 'fall into place' IS LOVE. Love for God above ALL else, and love for each other at the COST of 'self'.

MEC

****
John here: We see this closely alike. Yet, perhaps you might tell me how these who die, or have died in Revelation 3:16-17 get to heaven being spewed out with a sick love for Christ? Or the Luke 12:47-48 ones, who will suffer the most in hell for not living up to the Requirements of their knowledge? But Hosea 4:6 states that 'to reject knowledge' finds Christ rejecting me! And my friend, this knowledge is on past my knowledge of having my Master's 66 Books that you never 'seem' to quote from?

 

[mutzrein]

JTB - I don’t know what you are saying. You write a few sentences, intersperse it with scriptural references and expect me to understand what you are saying.

What is it that you disagree with what I have written?

____

Mutz said: Thanks John.

Bear with me because I would like to talk with you about this.

Firstly, why does 'certain doctrines' sound odd? Some folks believe that it is necessary to embrace certain doctrines in order to be 'saved' or to have the right 'spirit'. Invariably a particular verse or two are used and these are often applied out of context and without understanding the fuller counsel of scripture.

Do you agree with this or not?

_____

John says: Both yes & no. Matthew 28:20 John 3:3-8 Isaiah 8:20 1 John 2:4 But your posts present nothing but mans words, to back up what is being questioned.

And the no? Burning eternally in hell. But, as you say.
Now, does one build a house without a hammer? Or a 'level'?? Hang a piece of 4'x 8' sheet-rock that way, and you have cracks at both the top & bottom! And will any one look for a post like that even if one claims to be a Christian carpenter?

And this is precisely what I am saying about your posts John. I asked you a question and you answered ‘both yes and no’ then listed four scriptures that explain nothing about my original statement. They obviously mean something to you in the context that you are thinking of but to me they don’t. That is why I need to understand what it is you are disagreeing with and what scripture you are using to support your assertions.

Now I did pick up that you have an issue with something I must have said about hell. What is it? I believe in hell so what are you on about?

 

[Imagican]

Absolutely John, what IS required AFTER 're-birth' IS CONTINUED 'FAITH'. WE MUST remain faithful in order to grow. THAT was my point to begin with. There is NOTHING that we can do on our OWN that IS righteous. NOTHING. For you have pointed out, even those LOST are capable of sharing love in THE manner of the 'flesh'. It IS the 'learning' of 'true' love that makes the difference. And YES, re-birth IS needed in order to BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND IT. But, once re-birth takes place, there is ONLY ONE PURPOSE. I know, there is SO MUCH 'seemingly offered in The Word that it SEEMS like there is MUCH that we need to learn. NOT TRUE. What we NEED to learn for EVERYTHING ELSE to 'fall into place' IS LOVE. Love for God above ALL else, and love for each other at the COST of 'self'.

MEC

****
John here: We see this closely alike. Yet, perhaps you might tell me how these who die, or have died in Revelation 3:16-17 get to heaven being spewed out with a sick love for Christ? Or the Luke 12:47-48 ones, who will suffer the most in hell for not living up to the Requirements of their knowledge? But Hosea 4:6 states that 'to reject knowledge' finds Christ rejecting me! And my friend, this knowledge is on past my knowledge of having my Master's 66 Books that you never 'seem' to quote from?

John,

I DO offer quotes when I 'feel' they ARE necessary to an understanding. I usually DON'T if I 'feel' that those that I am discussing issues with have ALREADY studied The Word. I know that this leaves many at a 'loss' as to 'my proof', BUT, I am NOT here to discuss such matters with 'babes'. I am MORE than WILLING to discuss ANYTHING concerning The Word with ANYONE that has a desire to understand NO MATTER their degree of understanding. But I usually attempt to treat others 'as equals'. I know that this is presumptuous of me, but otherwise I would be stuck in 'being saved' mode instead of being able to offer something a 'bit more' substantial, (you know, like the proverbial 'milk-meat' thing).

If you so desire, anytime that you are unsure of the scriptural nature of my posts, please, simply ask and I WILL offer scriptural evidence of what I offered. Otherwise, I will post assuming that those that follow them HAVE read the Bible, (at least once, from cover to cover), and therefore have at least a 'basic reference to scripture in their memory'. But, John, as I'm quite sure you MUST be aware, there is MUCH more to understanding than ONLY The Word. For it is OBVIOUS that if Paul had lived for five hundred years he would STILL have been able to offer MORE than what we have in his epistles. Agreed? And MUCH of what is able to be understood goes BEYOND The written Word. The Word is ONLY the BEGINNING of knowledge. But, through it and with guidance from above we ARE able to understand much that is NOT directly 'STATED' in The Word.

My point, there ARE things that are 'different' NOW than things were five thousand years ago. Some of these things HAVE been mentioned in The Word and SOME HAVE NOT. But that does NOT mean that the answers to such things can NOT be obtained through an understanding of The Word and guidance through The Spirit. Yet the WORDS are NOT in the Bible. Follow me?

And I USUALLY offer quotes without offering quotes. Which is to say, I offer what HAS been stated in The Word without the offering of the book and verse. I think much faster than I can type or look up exact quotes so it may 'seem' at times as if I am offering MY OWN understanding. But, to those that have studied The Word, it MUST be obvious that I am NOT simply offering 'my own' understanding but that which IS offered through the Word and Spirit. For those that are UNABLE to 'see' this, I submit that perhaps a 'bit more' study is in order 'before' attempting to discuss such vital issues. I mean you wouldn't normally discuss advanced mathematics with the average second grader any more than discussing issues of the historical significance of 'trinity' with someone who was introduced to Christ this morning. Most would be simply 'misunderstood' at best.

MEC

 

[lecoop]

****
J/t/B/ here:
Revelation 14:6-10 finds the 3 angels message that the 7th Day Adventist were trusted with in 1844. The world was separated from the ones of Revelation 17:1-5. This was the Remnant of ex/Protestantism.

Now we are seeing the 'ignorant' yet 'sincere' ones from all of these false doctrine ones being called out once again. (yet the folds are not these)

All of this is prophesied in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 to happen again & again! It even happened in heavens first rebellion!
OK: 7th day Adventism has had their shaking, (or falling away) and is still going on! It was the same as old Israel's Midnight Cry of Matthew 25. (not the 70 AD counterpart)

It is very 'Important' to understand who left whom * who it is that stayed put, and WHY!
Anyway, 1 Peter 4:17 tell's who it is that is judged FIRST. Even this confuses folks, because they do not understand that all of these 'works' are recorded in the heavenly record books. (as accurately finished! See 1 John 5:16-17 & James 1:15=Closed door, full cup, the Sin Against the Holy Ghost)

So Adventist are 'separated' as seen in Revelation 12:17. Also, all false church's & Adventist are like Old Israel as far as Matthew 23:15 go. And it is these ones that are REQUIRED BY CHRIST to leave this satanic junk or be PARTAKERS & be lost! God realizes that these 'babes in Christ' are not yet understanding the false doctrines that they have joined, and are partakers of. Even then, if they had died being in ignorance? They still are secure while living the Truth as far as they had acess to it. Romans 1:8 But ALL will know the Truth before Christ comes again, and will be REQUIRED to accept it. See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

These will all be UNITED into the Revelation 3:10 ones of Philadelphia. (v. 7) It is the forced 'mark' of the church/government that will find any of Christ's Own who are 'forced' to either be satan's or willingly be Christ's and face death! Also notice that this was the same as old Israel, except this is the END of it ALL! :fadein:

And who can understand this? Compare the numbers of the ones who understood Noah! :

---John

Revelation 14:6-10 finds the 3 angels message that the 7th Day Adventist were trusted with in 1844.

This is just about the goofiest post I have read on any forum anywhere. Does this poster understand Daniel's 70th week? Does he understand that it is to be a 7 year period divided in two halves by the abomination event? Does this poster realize that these are all future events? The messages of the angels has not happened, and will not happen until after the midpoint of the 70th week. We of the church will not see that happen, for the rapture of the church will have taken place before that. However, those that are on the earth will know when the 70th week starts, for the world's worst earthquake, felt around the world, will shake the world as never before (6th seal). Then when all the grass in burnt up, and 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, they will know that the trumpets have started. When one third of the human race is killed, in a very short period of time, they will know that the midpoint of the week is approaching. To compare this message of the angels to anything of the adventist church is goofy, and shows no understanding of end times at all.

Coop

 

[follower]

Seems like the bible is the only book I can read easily -

which I guess is not such a bad thing with all the tripe in written form being presented as truth, by many.

I have to rely more on the voice of God rather than the word of man.

Good. Hope Shalom Joy Peace Understanding Strength Jesus in your life as the Good Protective Nurturing Shepherd and the Father in Heaven Revealing His Word to you as you have lived trusting Him.