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When Did The Church Begin?

wondering said:
Very interesting.
Jesus was even in the Adamic Covenant, which was unconditional.

God had made provision for the sin of Adam and Eve, since man cannot save himself.
Genesis 3:15-17

Genesis 3:21 God made a covering for man by sacrificing an animal.


And I can't remember if you mentioned that Jesus is the seed of Abraham...
Galatians 3:26-29
Click to expand...

Yes. The Seed of Abraham.


And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19


  • It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Throughout the book of Galatians, Paul is teaching these Galatians who were led astray by self proclaimed “Apostles” that came from Jerusalem, to the churches Paul would raise up among the Gentiles, and teach them they must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses, in order to be saved.

Paul returned to Jerusalem to put an end to this matter thinking Peter and James had sent these men, which resulted in the incident of Acts 15.


Here in the passages I quoted, Paul defines the purpose and extent of the law of Moses in duration and scope, using distinct language that clearly shows us the law of Moses was “added” to the Abrahamic Covenant, temporarily until the Seed should come.


By saying “till” the Holy Spirit is indicating the law of Moses was temporary, remaining until the Seed should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Just as Moses was the mediator of the Sinai Covenant, and therefore it was called the law of Moses, so also Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, in which it is called the law of Christ.

I wanted to introduce this understanding by quoting Isaiah 42...


He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Isaiah 42:4


Coastlands refers to Gentiles, who would be apart of this covenant which began with Abraham and always included Gentiles.


As it is written -

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.Genesis 12:3


again


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-8


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,


The law of Moses was the very thing that separated Jew from Gentile and was nailed to the cross, so that there would be
“one new man” in Christ.


Abraham was the pattern being “both” Jew and Gentile as he was the father of many nations, including Israel.


The 10 Commandments did not originate with Moses, as Abraham walked in obedience to them and keep them... “By faith”, 430 years before the law.


  • Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5





JLB
 
Last edited:
wondering said:
Some think Jesus was amoung the Essenes.
But it's not good to speculate....personally I have never read this in the Early Church Father's writings....and so must believe it is not true.
Click to expand...
A good book for you would be Hillel and Jesus... It is an eye opener. It also solves the "last supper" conflict.
 
JLB said:
Yes. The Seed of Abraham.


And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19


  • It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Throughout the book of Galatians, Paul is teaching these Galatians who were led astray by self proclaimed “Apostles” that came from Jerusalem, to the churches Paul would raise up among the Gentiles, and teach them they must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses, in order to be saved.

Paul returned to Jerusalem to put an end to this matter thinking Peter and James had sent these men, which resulted in the incident of Acts 15.


Here in the passages I quoted, Paul defines the purpose and extent of the law of Moses in duration and scope, using distinct language that clearly shows us the law of Moses was “added” to the Abrahamic Covenant, temporarily until the Seed should come.


By saying “till” the Holy Spirit is indicating the law of Moses was temporary, remaining until the Seed should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Just as Moses was the mediator of the Sinai Covenant, and therefore it was called the law of Moses, so also Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, in which it is called the law of Christ.

I wanted to introduce this understanding by quoting Isaiah 42...


He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Isaiah 42:4


Coastlands refers to Gentiles, who would be apart of this covenant which began with Abraham and always included Gentiles.


As it is written -

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.Genesis 12:3


again


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-8


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,


The law of Moses was the very thing that separated Jew from Gentile and was nailed to the cross, so that there would be
“one new man” in Christ.


Abraham was the pattern being “both” Jew and Gentile as he was the father of many nations, including Israel.


The 10 Commandments did not originate with Moses, as Abraham walked in obedience to them and keep them... “By faith”, 430 years before the law.


  • Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5





JLB
Click to expand...
Great post!
:nod

When I met Jesus back in the 70's, I had been going to the Catholic church and the Jews were not mentioned except in readings from the O.T., which were never explained anyway.

So when I went to a Protestant church I began to learn about the Hebrews and Israelites and Jews and was surprised to find that we are originally of the Jewish tribes, and that we are in Abraham's family by adoption.

Thanks for such a great post.
 
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wondering said:
What is the Last Supper conflict?
Click to expand...
I don't want to sidetrack, so you can start a new thread for further discussion.

John has Jesus being crucified as the Passover lambs are being slaughtered at the Temple while Matthew has Jesus eating the Passover with his disciples in the upper room.

You have to understand who the Essens were and the relationship Jesus had with them. At it's core, the Essens used the Hebrew Lunar calendar while the Temple adopted the Babylonian Solar calendar which caused Nissan 14 to fall on different days that week for each calendar.

in summary, Jesus eats Passover in the upper room on the Lunar calendar and dies on the cross on the Solar calendar
Both dates are considered Nissan 14 under their respective calendar.
 
StoveBolts said:
I don't want to sidetrack, so you can start a new thread for further discussion.

John has Jesus being crucified as the Passover lambs are being slaughtered at the Temple while Matthew has Jesus eating the Passover with his disciples in the upper room.

You have to understand who the Essens were and the relationship Jesus had with them. At it's core, the Essens used the Hebrew Lunar calendar while the Temple adopted the Babylonian Solar calendar which caused Nissan 14 to fall on different days that week for each calendar.

in summary, Jesus eats Passover in the upper room on the Lunar calendar and dies on the cross on the Solar calendar
Both dates are considered Nissan 14 under their respective calendar.
Click to expand...
I thought you might be referring to the fact that some believe the church began at the Last Supper.

I understand just a LITTLE about Nissan 14, and, TTYTT, I've stopped thinking about it.

Seems to me the death and resurrection are important...when it happened doesn't matter to me - even if John has the dating a little different.
 
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Reactions: JLB
wondering said:
I thought you might be referring to the fact that some believe the church began at the Last Supper.

I understand just a LITTLE about Nissan 14, and, TTYTT, I've stopped thinking about it.

Seems to me the death and resurrection are important...when it happened doesn't matter to me - even if John has the dating a little different.
Click to expand...
What does ttytt mean?
 
wondering said:
I don't think so.
I've never heard this stated before.
Jesus gave the Apostles many pep talks...I think that night He was probably not in the mood for pep talks. He was also wholly human, remember. Could you just imagine what He must have felt like knowing what was to come...Jesus shed persperation of blood, a real possibility that happens in the face of extreme fear.

Just because they were together, does that mean the church began? I don't think so.

Maybe at the Last Supper?
He said to do THIS in remembrance of Him.
Do what?
Luke 22:19----

Did you consider
Mathew 26:31 ?
Click to expand...

The last supper does make more sense, lol!
 
Edward said:
The last supper does make more sense, lol!
Click to expand...
I'm not sure there's one definite answer.
I've heard different ideas from different churches.
But, yeah, the Last Supper is a good choice.

OzSpen said:
wondering,

Here you can purchase a used copy of Hillel and Jesus.

Oz
Click to expand...
Thanks Oz.
But it's amazon.com
It's really expensive to ship books here because they're so heavy.

This is the site I had checked.

It's not avx on amazon.it

I just thought to try England or Germany.

Hang on...

GOT IT!
amazon.co.uk

Shipping shouldn't be so bad.

I also saw a book titled HOW GOD BECAME JESUS
in response to Bart Ehrman's book:
HOW JESUS BECAME GOD
 
wondering said:
A "clean break" would have to be explained.

Jesus was Jewish and was taught by Rabbi's.
I'm not sure He came to set up a new religion, but to bring spirituality to the existing one.

The Jews did not accept this as Paul states fervently in Romans chapters 9 to 11. They did not accept the New Covenant so the gentiles were brought in, as Abraham had been told. Fulfillment of scripture.

As it happened, it did become necessary to create a new "religion" since the Jews expelled their Christ believing brethren after hardly two generations.

You say there is not an unbroken entity, which means you believe the church goes back to the O.T.

Where in the O.T. do we see the church the way we know it today? I just can't see this....
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Jesus didn't come with a new religion but He sure did make some changes, and in a way they did kind of have to make some new organization because the Jews did not accept it as you say. But I would think that there is an unbroken entity inasmuch as some rolled with the changes Jesus made. Only 12 at first but then grew rapidly. But!!! in no way can we see the church of today in the OT because the church of today is...very corrupted. But of course there is a uh, remnant of sorts within the world who do have it right and (apparently, God has begun pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh, now, in these end times...) because I can see and hear of changes taking place everywhere almost!

The Lord is coming for His Bride, and she will be unblemished. That will necessitate some pretty radical changes from church as usual as we know it. And it will create division and it is creating division! The lines between luke warm Christianity and on fire Christianity will become more pronounced as time goes by...It has already started.
 
wondering said:
I'm not sure there's one definite answer.
I've heard different ideas from different churches.
But, yeah, the Last Supper is a good choice.


Thanks Oz.
But it's amazon.com
It's really expensive to ship books here because they're so heavy.

This is the site I had checked.

It's not avx on amazon.it

I just thought to try England or Germany.

Hang on...

GOT IT!
amazon.co.uk

Shipping shouldn't be so bad.

I also saw a book titled HOW GOD BECAME JESUS
in response to Bart Ehrman's book:
HOW JESUS BECAME GOD
Click to expand...

wondering,

I tried to find Hillel and Jesus on the Book Depository website in the UK as it offers free shipping worldwide. However, it's unavailable. Also, it's a hard cover book from Augsburg Fortress publishers, it's not known for competitive pricing, especially since the book is 500pp.

Because of this free shipping deal, I buy most of my books through Book Depository but the number of books I buy now is very few. It's the old man getting older.

Oz
 
Edward said:
Very interesting. Jesus didn't come with a new religion but He sure did make some changes, and in a way they did kind of have to make some new organization because the Jews did not accept it as you say. But I would think that there is an unbroken entity inasmuch as some rolled with the changes Jesus made. Only 12 at first but then grew rapidly. But!!! in no way can we see the church of today in the OT because the church of today is...very corrupted. But of course there is a uh, remnant of sorts within the world who do have it right and (apparently, God has begun pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh, now, in these end times...) because I can see and hear of changes taking place everywhere almost!

The Lord is coming for His Bride, and she will be unblemished. That will necessitate some pretty radical changes from church as usual as we know it. And it will create division and it is creating division! The lines between luke warm Christianity and on fire Christianity will become more pronounced as time goes by...It has already started.
Click to expand...
Hi Ed,
I have to agree that there is an unbroken entity.
I'd go so far as to say that it goes even beyond the O.T.
As per Romans 1:19-20, I believe God has always manifested Himself to man in some way or another...Jesus being the last, final way and after Jesus there can be no other way. HE is the final revelation of God...If we can't see God in Jesus,,,then where could we possibly see Him??

As far as the church being corrupted...it's in plain sight to all of us.
The catholic church is falling apart...this Pope is creating a schism within the church. I know that many priests are speaking out against his weird ideas --- which are globalist. To say nothing about the cover-ups, both moral and financial...the moral being the worse of the two IMO.

I highlighted your last sentence and will repeat it here: I couldn't agree more! There has always been a remnant and a "true Church", the Body of Christ...that will NOT change.
The lines between luke warm Christianity and on fire Christianity will become more pronounced as time goes by...It has already started.
 
Anto9us2 said:
Peter cut a guy's ear off when they came to arrest Jesus. Only Luke, the physician, among the gospel writers, tells us that Jesus put the guy's ear back on.

The RENT VEIL of the Temple, which happened at the time of crucifixion, should have been a 'clean break' - but it didn't turn out that way. Paul later took part in some VOW at the Temple, with some other guys. Why? Sounds like something James the Just would want.

I don't know that I have any "accepted interpretation" of Matthew 11:11, and I think the thoughts about John the Baptist vs the 'Temple crowd' are interesting.

As far as Peter gettin' skeert, sometime after chopping the guy's ear off he got scared enough to deny knowing Christ.

I think the author of Hebrews writes of the old covenant as 'about to pass away', so maybe the clean break I seek didn't happen at RENT VEIL...
Click to expand...
The way I have always viewed the rent veil was that Jesus's death (to be followed by His resurrection) gave access through Him, our High Priest, to the Holy of Holies. "We can now go boldly before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time need."
 
wondering said:
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
Click to expand...
It began at the beginning.
 
wondering said:
Yes. God gathered a people to Himself.
In a special way and for a specific purpose.
Maybe it had to change after Jesus because the whole world would be included...promise to Abraham and David.

The faith after Jesus was different from the faith before Jesus,,,but we could say it was a continuation, or, a further revelation.
Click to expand...
Like all of us, the Jews are on a collision course with Christ. So until that Day, maybe both a continuation, further revelation?
 
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