When Did The Church Begin?

[JLB]

I agree A...sorry for the misunderstanding.

I see see the Church “as we know it today” in the OT.

I do it see having begun with Abraham as the covenant people of God, and that we Gentiles are grafted into that natural olive tree, whereby the root supports us all.

The “New” covenant is the restored or refreshed covenant, which flows with the original meaning of “I am building and restoring” from Matthew.


Abraham made covenant with Christ, and had the Spirit of Christ within Him.

He belongs to Christ the way we are today.

He was justified by faith, looking forward to the cross, as we are justified by faith looking back.


The New (Refreshed) Covenant is indeed a better covenant based on better promises, however that doesn’t mean it’s a brand new different covenant.


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:13-14

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

Peter cut a guy's ear off when they came to arrest Jesus. Only Luke, the physician, among the gospel writers, tells us that Jesus put the guy's ear back on.

The RENT VEIL of the Temple, which happened at the time of crucifixion, should have been a 'clean break' - but it didn't turn out that way. Paul later took part in some VOW at the Temple, with some other guys. Why? Sounds like something James the Just would want.

I don't know that I have any "accepted interpretation" of Matthew 11:11, and I think the thoughts about John the Baptist vs the 'Temple crowd' are interesting.

As far as Peter gettin' skeert, sometime after chopping the guy's ear off he got scared enough to deny knowing Christ.

I think the author of Hebrews writes of the old covenant as 'about to pass away', so maybe the clean break I seek didn't happen at RENT VEIL...

Yes. Peter the brave somehow became Peter the panic. Something swept over him as foretold by Christ. The crowd pointed Peter out. I feel they would've grabbed him too. Many times Christ saves us from ourselves. Jesus wanted Peter alive.

 

[Anto9us2]

John the Baptist HAD THE CREDENTIALS to be part of Temple crowd, his father was a Temple priest. But John rejected that crowd, and was out in the desert places - some think he was among the Essenes.

Pharisees and Saducees get some pretty bad press in the NT, Essenes are never mentioned as far as I know.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see see the Church “as we know it today” in the OT.

I do it see having begun with Abraham as the covenant people of God, and that we Gentiles are grafted into that natural olive tree, whereby the root supports us all.

The “New” covenant is the restored or refreshed covenant, which flows with the original meaning of “I am building and restoring” from Matthew.


Abraham made covenant with Christ, and had the Spirit of Christ within Him.

He belongs to Christ the way we are today.

He was justified by faith, looking forward to the cross, as we are justified by faith looking back.


The New (Refreshed) Covenant is indeed a better covenant based on better promises, however that doesn’t mean it’s a brand new different covenant.


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:13-14

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

JLB

I agree with all,,,,
My problem is that you spelled church with a capital C...

meaning the Body of Christ.

Everyone that believes in Christ, including those that believed in God in the O.T. (since there is only one God and Christ is "part" of that God) are indeed a part of the Body of Christ.

Only One Body is going to heaven,,,not two.

But, as Anto9us2 said:
HE cannot find anything in the O.T. that resembles the N.T. church (small c)....
I'm sure you can't either.
Or can you??

 

[GodsGrace]

John the Baptist HAD THE CREDENTIALS to be part of Temple crowd, his father was a Temple priest. But John rejected that crowd, and was out in the desert places - some think he was among the Essenes.

Pharisees and Saducees get some pretty bad press in the NT, Essenes are never mentioned as far as I know.

Some think Jesus was amoung the Essenes.
But it's not good to speculate....personally I have never read this in the Early Church Father's writings....and so must believe it is not true.

 

[Anto9us2]

Hebrews 8:13
In that he sayeth, a new covenant, he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I am lost on how we just have a 'refreshed' covenant and not a brand new one, JLB.

 

[JLB]

I think the author of Hebrews writes of the old covenant as 'about to pass away',

The old mosaic covenant did pass away, however that’s not the eternal covenant the Lord made with Abraham, the covenant we as Gentiles are grafted into.


The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, temporarily until the Seed should come.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The law of Moses (Sinai Covenant) was nailed to the cross, and the original covenant that The Lord made with Abraham, was restored and called the New Covenant.


The Israel of God, the called out Holy nation of God, began with Abraham and the Lord Jesus before He became flesh.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel. Exodus 19:6


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Galatians 6:15-16


Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:11-13



JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

Yeah, I think we have to reject Essenes as claiming Jesus or John

 

[Anto9us2]

You got heavy stuff here, JLB

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 8:13
In that he sayeth, a new covenant, he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I am lost on how we just have a 'refreshed' covenant and not a brand new one, JLB.

The word “New” in New Covenant says it all.


Try studying that word “New” in New Covenant.

The word is neos.

The other word for New is Kainos.


The New Testament or New Covenant is not some brand new, different Covenant, but is the renewed Abrahamic Covenant.


Which is why we are called sons of Abraham -

• only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-8


And that the blessing of Abraham has come upon the Gentiles -

• the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:13-14



JLB

 

[JLB]

You got heavy stuff here, JLB

It’s nothing to debate or argue about.

I mean no disrespect.


I just share because I’m passionate about see God’s people blessed with health, and blessing and eternal life and protection from our enemies the way Abraham was.


If your not wanting to discuss this topic, I’ll just drop it.


God bless you sir.




JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

HEBREWS 10:9b
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second

 

[JLB]

Everyone that believes in Christ, including those that believed in God in the O.T. (since there is only one God and Christ is "part" of that God) are indeed a part of the Body of Christ.

Amen.

 

[Anto9us2]

No, you don't have to DROP IT
JLB

it's interesting, just a new idea to me that the new covenant is a refreshed covenant

 

[JLB]

HEBREWS 10:9b
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second

Please understand that what He took away was the law of Moses, which was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, temporarily.


The context of Hebrews 10 is about the law of Moses.


I totally agree and teach the law of Moses was abolished in His flesh being nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.

The dividing wall and enmity between Jew and Gentile was the law of Moses.

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, you don't have to DROP IT
JLB

it's interesting, just a new idea to me that the new covenant is a refreshed covenant

Ok.

Hold me accountable then brother.

Fire away any scripture you like.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree with all,,,,
My problem is that you spelled church with a capital C...

meaning the Body of Christ.

Everyone that believes in Christ, including those that believed in God in the O.T. (since there is only one God and Christ is "part" of that God) are indeed a part of the Body of Christ.

Only One Body is going to heaven,,,not two.

But, as Anto9us2 said:
HE cannot find anything in the O.T. that resembles the N.T. church (small c)....
I'm sure you can't either.
Or can you??

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:1-3


“I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless


This is the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh.

He is our covenant.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6


I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,


The Lord Jesus is our covenant as He was with Abraham.



JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

It is true that Hebrews contrasts the new covenant with the Mosaic covenant.

When I say I don't know who wrote Hebrews, that also means that I don't know that PAUL did NOT write it.

But we don't know.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 8:13
In that he sayeth, a new covenant, he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I am lost on how we just have a 'refreshed' covenant and not a brand new one, JLB.

Hi A,

If you study the Covenants, you'll find that no covenant abolished the preceeding one but only changed it in some way or made it better.

The New Covenant did not abolish the Mosaic Covenant because we still must keep the 10 commandments and obey God....this was not abolished.

The METHOD in which we are able to keep the commandments and obey God is what has changed. Also, the New Covenant is everlasting because there will be no further agreements between God and man....Jesus is our last chance for salvation.

In this way the N.C. can be understood as a "refreshing" of the Old Covenant...it is not "brand new".

 

[GodsGrace]

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:1-3


“I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless


This is the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh.

He is our covenant.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6


I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,


The Lord Jesus is our covenant as He was with Abraham.



JLB

Very interesting.
Jesus was even in the Adamic Covenant, which was unconditional.

God had made provision for the sin of Adam and Eve, since man cannot save himself.
Genesis 3:15-17

Genesis 3:21 God made a covering for man by sacrificing an animal.


And I can't remember if you mentioned that Jesus is the seed of Abraham...
Galatians 3:26-29