When Did The Church Begin?

[Anto9us2]

Oikodomeo
Tense: Future
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative

That was the PARSING info for oikodomeo in that verse on BlueletterBible.org

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

D A Carson has written an article on this issue in which he states:

'So what do the two camps—those who think the church began at Pentecost, and those who think the church stretches back in time and ultimately includes all of God’s elect—make of such exegetical phenomena? Transparently, different interpretive choices are tied up with each position' (When Did the Church Begin?)​

Oz

Great article Oz,,,,thanks.
As I said to JLB,,,,it all hinges on what one means by "church".

I hope he saw your article.
It's very interesting....

 

[Anto9us2]

In Ephesians chapter 3, Paul writes of the MYSTERY that had been HIDDEN for ages, writing of the plan of God for including the Gentiles in one body, the Church

Does an entity have to already EXIST to be hidden, or can the plan of God be hidden from men, even the OT prophets who were writing to US?

I feel the plan was for the entity the Church to begin at Pentecost, if they were going to be first called Christians at Antioch, that doesn't mean the entity the Church began at Antioch

A plan, hidden from men for ages - boom, at Pentecost, a beginning - opens to Gentiles also a little later

 

[Anto9us2]

Matthew 11:11 indicates a watershed of some sort - no one born of women greater than John the Baptist, yet least in this NEW ENTITY is greater than John the Baptist

 

[Anto9us2]

Hey, Wondering, you're GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST!

Hey, JLB, you are too!

Me too - all of us!

Let's all feast on locusts and wild honey!!

My point is, if there is an unbroken entity going back through time, the words of Jesus in Matthew 11:11 don't make too much sense.

But if a new entity was established, we can make sense of it.

 

[JLB]

Hey, Wondering, you're GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST!

Hey, JLB, you are too!

Me too - all of us!

Let's all feast on locusts and wild honey!!

My point is, if there is an unbroken entity going back through time, the words of Jesus in Matthew 11:11 don't make too much sense.

But if a new entity was established, we can make sense of it.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 11:11

Let’s examine the first thing Jesus said here.


Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:

This is simply a true statement.

it will not change.

John came in the spirit and power of Elijah.

John baptized Jesus Christ.

John preached the gospel of the kingdom and was definitely part of the kingdom of God Himself.


The second thing that Jesus said is not going to change the first.

There is only one born among women, who is greater than John the Baptist.


Here’s a hint.

Read Matthew 18:1-4

Who is the most humble in the kingdom of heaven?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Well it was all about to come down and that was the last time before the crucifixion that they were all together. And Jesus knew it was coming and time was at hand. So they prolly talked more than was recorded. And Jesus asked them to pray and watch with him, and it's like they couldn't or whatever.

It all turned out ok, from today's perspective, but it was like, the last pep talk before they were out on their own so to speak, without Jesus. So it kind of sort of began that night, right?

I don't think so.
I've never heard this stated before.
Jesus gave the Apostles many pep talks...I think that night He was probably not in the mood for pep talks. He was also wholly human, remember. Could you just imagine what He must have felt like knowing what was to come...Jesus shed persperation of blood, a real possibility that happens in the face of extreme fear.

Just because they were together, does that mean the church began? I don't think so.

Maybe at the Last Supper?
He said to do THIS in remembrance of Him.
Do what?
Luke 22:19----

Did you consider
Mathew 26:31 ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey, Wondering, you're GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST!

Hey, JLB, you are too!

Me too - all of us!

Let's all feast on locusts and wild honey!!

My point is, if there is an unbroken entity going back through time, the words of Jesus in Matthew 11:11 don't make too much sense.

But if a new entity was established, we can make sense of it.

What does Mathew 11:11 mean to you?
Honestly, I don't understand your point.

By entity, do you mean the church?

I understand JLB's point very well and agree that we all make up the Body of Christ; but that is not what this thread is about.

Do you think there is NOT an unbroken entity?

 

[Anto9us2]

Matthew 11:11 means to me a clean break between the old and new covenant. Yes, by entity I mean the church, and yes, there is not an unbroken entity

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 11:11 means to me a clean break between the old and new covenant. Yes, by entity I mean the church, and yes, there is not an unbroken entity

A "clean break" would have to be explained.

Jesus was Jewish and was taught by Rabbi's.
I'm not sure He came to set up a new religion, but to bring spirituality to the existing one.

The Jews did not accept this as Paul states fervently in Romans chapters 9 to 11. They did not accept the New Covenant so the gentiles were brought in, as Abraham had been told. Fulfillment of scripture.

As it happened, it did become necessary to create a new "religion" since the Jews expelled their Christ believing brethren after hardly two generations.

You say there is not an unbroken entity, which means you believe the church goes back to the O.T.

Where in the O.T. do we see the church the way we know it today? I just can't see this....

 

[Anto9us2]

No, I DON'T believe the Church goes back to OT

I don't see the Church as we know it today in the OT

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I DON'T believe the Church goes back to OT

I don't see the Church as we know it today in the OT

I agree A...sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Anto9us2]

Yay!! We agree!!

 

[daninthelionsden]

Ed, I wonder what you mean by the Garden of Gethsemane...the night before the passion? That would be interesting to hear,,,I never have before.

The Apostles were a mess...fearful and hiding. Peter even denied knowing Jesus out of fear.

Is this when you mean?

Did the Lord allow the spirit of fear to run through them so they'd live to preach another day?

 

[GodsGrace]

Did the Lord allow the spirit of fear to run through them so they'd live to preach another day?

What a great question!
I never thought of this.
Just off the top of my head (or on my two feet, as they say here)
I THINK that if the Romans or the Sanhedrin really thought they'd be a problem they could have found them any time they wanted to.

I believe that once Jesus,,,the leader,,,was out of the way, they all thought the "movement" would end.

As it turned out...the Apostles were never sought at that time.

Thoughts?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Matthew 11:11 indicates a watershed of some sort - no one born of women greater than John the Baptist, yet least in this NEW ENTITY is greater than John the Baptist

I don't agree with the accepted present interpretation of Matt 11:11. Both John and Jesus railed against the Temple crowd and called them every vile name as evidenced in the very next verse, Matt 11:12. Jesus was a Jew at this time. He had not yet been crucified. The curtain had not yet been torn in two at the Temple. The Temple crowd were still administering the Kingdom at that time. John was qualified to be among the Temple crowd, but he refused their authority and they considered him to be the least among them(Temple crowd) This is why Jesus called him the least in the Kingdom....least in the Temple administered Kingdom and Not in the Christ administered Kingdom....that was yet to come.

 

[daninthelionsden]

What a great question!
I never thought of this.
Just off the top of my head (or on my two feet, as they say here)
I THINK that if the Romans or the Sanhedrin really thought they'd be a problem they could have found them any time they wanted to.

I believe that once Jesus,,,the leader,,,was out of the way, they all thought the "movement" would end.

As it turned out...the Apostles were never sought at that time.

Thoughts?

I think if Peter had not the spirit of fear they'd have grabbed him right then and there?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think if Peter had not the spirit of fear they'd have grabbed him right then and there?

Peter was standing right next to Jesus when He was arrested.
They didn't care about Peter and they got who they wanted.

Peter denied Jesus those 3X because he was humanly so afraid.
I don't even think it was necessary for him to deny Jesus.

I wonder if someone else would like to express an opinion?
This is very new to me.

 

[Anto9us2]

Peter cut a guy's ear off when they came to arrest Jesus. Only Luke, the physician, among the gospel writers, tells us that Jesus put the guy's ear back on.

The RENT VEIL of the Temple, which happened at the time of crucifixion, should have been a 'clean break' - but it didn't turn out that way. Paul later took part in some VOW at the Temple, with some other guys. Why? Sounds like something James the Just would want.

I don't know that I have any "accepted interpretation" of Matthew 11:11, and I think the thoughts about John the Baptist vs the 'Temple crowd' are interesting.

As far as Peter gettin' skeert, sometime after chopping the guy's ear off he got scared enough to deny knowing Christ.

I think the author of Hebrews writes of the old covenant as 'about to pass away', so maybe the clean break I seek didn't happen at RENT VEIL...

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for your response.

However simplistic or subjective your answer, I was hoping to hear what you thought, from the scriptures and not necessarily from another person’s writings.


‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’
Acts 2:17-21


This quote from Joel, indicates the name of YHWH is to be called on in order to be saved, which refers to Jesus being YHWH, as Paul also writes...


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13


I see this calling on the name of the Lord to be saved occurring before Pentecost.


Here is a scene after the resurrection-


Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:14-15


Also, John’s version of that event -


Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:19-23


Here after the resurrection they received the Holy Spirt, and were commissioned, and had been baptized (assumed) as well as they had baptized others.


What more in your opinion would need to have been done to be qualified as part of the Church?



JLB

So you want me to agree with you?