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When did the Church begin?

Do you believe the Church began on the day of Pentecost?

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    Votes: 10 62.5%
  • No

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    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16

Randy

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How does this contradict Hebrews 1 ?



Here is what Hebrews 1:8-10 says —


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10



Here is what Zechariah 12:1 says —

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



  • Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, Zechariah 12:1

  • But to the Son He says: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:10



JLB
Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

The creation that was made according to the Fathers will and at His command was made through Jesus.

"Let us" make man in our image.

The power and wisdom for Jesus to do so was gifted to Him. The deity in the Son is the Fathers.
"The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

Hebrews 1 states who spoke through the prophets and its the same God who has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. It also states what He made was made through Jesus.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Again its from the Father given through the Son in ALL things.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

And again I will post the words of the host of heaven about the one who sits on the throne in heaven. The one Jesus calls His God and the only true God.
The twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
 

JLB

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The creation that was made according to the Fathers will

Amen.


However, Jesus expressed the will of the Father by speaking creation into existence by His word.


His word comes into manifestation by the Holy Spirit.



JLB
 

JLB

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11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

This is the Godhead functioning as One.

The Father expresses His will through the Son who speaks the word and the word has its being (manifestation) by the Spirit.


JLB
 

JLB

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That contradicts Hebrews 1.

But the Father also states He is Jesus's God. The apostles also noted the Father was Jesus's God.
Jesus would call the Father His God because the Father is His God.

Yes the Father is greater than the Son, and gives all authority to the Son.

JLB
 

WIP

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That contradicts Hebrews 1.

But the Father also states He is Jesus's God. The apostles also noted the Father was Jesus's God.
Jesus would call the Father His God because the Father is His God.
Sounds like the conundrum we have in understanding the Trinity.
 

JLB

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Sounds like the conundrum we have in understanding the Trinity.

He is asking good questions and using scripture, so I’m greatful to be engaged in this conversation.


I’m ready to open up the next level of conversation about Jesus being YHWH, God’s Son, The great I AM, from the scriptures.


This should come next if he addresses my post.




JLB
 

Randy

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This is the Godhead functioning as One.

The Father expresses His will through the Son who speaks the word and the word has its being (manifestation) by the Spirit.


JLB
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.

How is it any different then the Son of Man who stated it was the Father in Him doing His work?
 

JLB

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How is it any different then the Son of Man who stated it was the Father in Him doing His work?

If you could, please include the chapter and verse you are referring to.
 

Randy

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If you could, please include the chapter and verse you are referring to.
John 14:8-10
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
 
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Randy

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Yes.


The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit, dwells in the Man Jesus Christ.
Rather it is the Father who was stated to be living in Jesus. That would have to be by His Spirit which we call the Holy Spirit. Jesus is a being not a word and has His own spirit as He stated from the cross. John referred to the Jesus who was from the beginning as the word of life. The one they touched, heard. In other words Jesus was still depicted by John as the word of life.

So perhaps you can provide scripture to what you stated.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. - Jesus is all that the Father is.

And I would state the Son who was, His spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. And the Father was still living in Him. Whatever was emptied it was not the presence of the Father in Jesus. - And they are one in that manner.
 

JLB

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Rather it is the Father who was stated to be living in Jesus. That would have to be by His Spirit which we call the Holy Spirit. Jesus is a being not a word and has His own spirit as He stated from the cross. John referred to the Jesus who was from the beginning as the word of life. The one they touched, heard. In other words Jesus was still depicted by John as the word of life.

So perhaps you can provide scripture to what you stated.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. - Jesus is all that the Father is.

And I would state the Son who was, His spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. And the Father was still living in Him. Whatever was emptied it was not the presence of the Father in Jesus. - And they are one in that manner.

The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one.
 

Randy

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God has been described as to have the figure of a man. So I assume God has form, a body, and such a body in the order of Spirit. Which follows Genesis let us create man in our image (form)
Let us would mean Jesus also had the figure of a man before He became the Son of Man. I also assume the body would be in order of Spirit. But as in the resurrected body I don't know anything about such bodies. God was never a man rather He created man in His form but mans body is of the dust of the earth. Gods isn't.

Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This would suggest God has form
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Again A figure of God sitting down on His throne - even has hair on His head
As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.

Jesus is described in like manner
The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.


But Jesus told His accusers at His trial in the future they will see "The Son Of Man" coming on the clouds of heaven which we read in Daniel.

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

"I Am who I Am" already has all those things He blessed Jesus with and has not received from any other being. Father-"From whom all things come"
 
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