When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[jasoncran]

Sorry, that temple will be built. 9 chapters which you say is a draft version, and not gonna happen. Sorry, don't agree.

so why did God tell zeke go to the elders then and show them the patter and see if they are ashamed if they weren't the ones that must build it? and show me and why the word prince isn't capitalized, in context.
the prince takes the offering to the levites and they offer to the Lord.

no messiah there is listed nor mentioned.well unless one says the prince that sits before the Lord is the messiah but that is odd because he must atone for himself too and isn't worshipped.where are these that went astray?
ez 44
[QUOTE ] But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments [/QUOTE]

now the prince is mentioned there but let see

46 Thus saith the Lord God; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons.

 

[About the Son of God]

There's no reason to think the outer shell of worship could not have continued because the old temple system was not just for atonement of sin, but for the worship of God through fellowship, peace, and freewill offerings, too

After being heavily side-tracked....
The freewill offerings are something that gets forgotten in all the theological debating over the sins.
Given that there is no Aaronite high priest, and that even Kings like David weren't allowed the privilege I see no reason to consider (as part of the O.P.) a full restoration of the temple system; But freewill offerings are (as you note), a different issue...

I know that there are Samaritans, who draw their linage from Levi (not Aaron) and who still practice animal sacrifice upon the mountains; And there is a reference to an altar which was permitted to stand for a future time, should the communion between tribes be broken: Joshua 22:24-28

Now, I'm shifting the topic a bit, a point I'm curious about from the book of Hebrews: this difficult passage is the main one which indirectly concerns the Levitical as well as the Aaronite priesthood;

Hebrews 10:3-9
In 10:5 it says "A body you have prepared for me"; ( σῶμα but not sarks/flesh )

A manuscript with a non-christian reading was chosen by the Jews of the early centuries, as they didn't want Christian sensibilities in Jewish scriptures -- So we don't have all the original renderings in Hebrew of Psalm 40; ( and there was more than one variant Hebrew manuscript even in the time of Jesus, I discovered; but Masoretic Hebrew manuscripts are all much later A.D. writings with poynting that was not on the original, etc. )

However Paul's version of the Psalm is still found in the Greek LXX of the Old Testament, which has been in the Hands of Christians since the time of Christ; and is still used in all the Eastern Churches. ( as an aside: I think a syriac version called ?? P_e_s_h_i_t_a ?? still exists, and that one is directly related to Jesus' tongue, Aramaic. )

The LXX was translated for exiled & Egyptian Hebrews near the time of Alexander the Great (300 years before Christ), and most of it comes from times around 200 years or more before Jesus; with some history books from about 50 years before him. But all of it is prior to Jesus, and contains the texts he would have known about.

So Back to the psalm's variant word: Ear vs. Body.

If it meant "Ear" then I think it refers to understanding and obedience.
If "body" it would be a reference to a fit sacrifice.

Paul's meaning is the "Body" of Christ, I would think; but if the KJV family of translation is correct, then God didn't "require" a sacrifice after the body was made; and no mention is made of the body being a sacrifice.

It's a problem to interpret it -- so I wanted to see if another psalm preserved the sense of that passage:
( eg: psalms of great importance are generally found chopped up and copied into other psalms, the idea or theme being repeated. A good example is psalm 14 "The Fool hath said..." and psalm 53 )

The closest I have found so far is Psalm 51:15 - 19
It has the same three fold change as well:
No sacrifce --> what God wants [including spirit ear/listen/obey NOT pride ] --> sacrifices of righteousness.
I don't see a "sin" offering there... but evidently, these sacrifices are the ones God delights in (but depending on translation, are not required).

Holocaust is included.

No, not an end date. In the context of our discussion, 'limited' was referring to the sin that only remained forgiven (of the sin that could be forgiven under the old system) until you sinned again

I'm not sure what to think about that -- for Paul says some things very difficult to understand; but perhaps with more time to think and pray about it, I will be granted some inspiration and guidance -- and be able to articulate some subtleties that I can't resolve.

Thanks, Jethro...

 

[Ryan]

so that means I can go the local Chassidic temple say chabad.org and learn?

im sorry that doesn't help your case. remember in those days law and grace coincided. but not anymore.


show me where he has says jews that go the temples. why would the gospel be read in the temple. this same temple that killed Christians?

Acts 13:15-16 15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, “Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.†16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said,“Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen...

Acts 13:26 “Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:42-45 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

How could any Gentile convert learn any of Adonai's word unless they were in the synagogues?

Acts 15:21 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.†is a strange verse unless you realize Gentile converts did not know any of the Lord's word, and this was a minimum set of guidelines to live out his faith.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm. so they went to the temple.lol

really to the same jews that in the Talmud say that gentiles were for the fires of sheol(hell).I find that hard to believe when it says go unto the word and well galatians is where and where and what are the churches.
I find it hard and really hard that any orthodox jew of that day would invite any gentile to the temple.sorry

paul went to the jews. remember that. they didn't meet there. greeks in the temple? pork eating greeks eating and dining with jews. hardly. remember the hatred of hellinistic jews and Hebraic jews.

sorry. the church went to them. no gentile would be allowed into the temple. I know that today. I cant go into the temple unless im invited. some do and some wont

 

[Ryan]

so why did God tell zeke go to the elders then and show them the patter and see if they are ashamed if they weren't the ones that must build it? and show me and why the word prince isn't capitalized, in context.
the prince takes the offering to the levites and they offer to the Lord.

no messiah there is listed nor mentioned.well unless one says the prince that sits before the Lord is the messiah but that is odd because he must atone for himself too and isn't worshipped.where are these that went astray?
ez 44
[QUOTE ] But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments

now the prince is mentioned there but let see[/QUOTE]
Scripture does not specifically state who this Prince is; some scriptures indicate that it might be King David (Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:25), others suggest that it might be Messiah (Hebrews 3:1, 4:14, 6:20).

I don't have an answer to your question.

Now I am beginning to understand how you have 30000+ posts :crazy

 

[jasoncran]

then it cant be the man david since he has sin. so god raised men to be sin?

and on that temple thing

acts 5

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

house where they were invited. I seriously doubt the jews of that era under the pharisectal law would allow gentiles in. sheesh. even the gospels show the jew -gentile hatred. look at the syro-phoneican woman and also how the samaratians are treated.

 

[jasoncran]

the high priest whom did what?

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

im sorry. he atoned at the cross and you say he comes back once again to atone? remember the chapters I posted mention that he has to worship. so how can God worship the father and only enter the temple on shabat?that God that needs men to atone for him as he cant offer for himself.

 

[Ryan]

uhm. so they went to the temple.lol

really to the same jews that in the Talmud say that gentiles were for the fires of sheol(hell).I find that hard to believe when it says go unto the word and well galatians is where and where and what are the churches.
I find it hard and really hard that any orthodox jew of that day would invite any gentile to the temple.sorry

paul went to the jews. remember that. they didn't meet there. greeks in the temple? pork eating greeks eating and dining with jews. hardly. remember the hatred of hellinistic jews and Hebraic jews.

sorry. the church went to them. no gentile would be allowed into the temple. I know that today. I cant go into the temple unless im invited. some do and some wont

Yes the temple was off limits to Gentiles. Won't disagree. But what was Galatia about? Gentiles being told by weak of faith Jews to get circumcised. How could they be telling them that at any other place then a synagogue?

And don't forget Paul's rebuke of Peter.

 

[jasoncran]

Galatia is a region. being part celtic I know of that side of me. its the origin of the celtic race in one theory.

there was no one church. that is my point paul wasn't writing to the jews in their temple that fell under the high priest.

 

[Ryan]

the high priest whom did what?



im sorry. he atoned at the cross and you say he comes back once again to atone? remember the chapters I posted mention that he has to worship. so how can God worship the father and only enter the temple on shabat?that God that needs men to atone for him as he cant offer for himself.

Do you think for one second that is what Ezekiel's temple is for? It's for a memorium. Don't forget Paul continued to sacrifice at the temple to complete the Nazarite vow. Sacrifices do not have to be about sin.

You say he atoned at the cross, but the blood of bulls cannot take away sin. So what was the purpose of the temple and Levitical system then?

 

[jasoncran]

jews followed them to get them under the law. I have been taught that judaisers did that.

Judaizers

• 
  
  
• 
  
  

Judaizers Those who adopted Jewish religious practices or sought to influence others to do so. TheGreek verb ioudaizo [Ioudai?zw] ("to judaize") appears only once in theSeptuagint ( Esther8:17 ) and once in the New Testament ( Gal 2:14 ). In theSeptuagint this verb is used in relation to the Gentiles in Persia who adopted Jewishpractices in order to avoid the consequences of Esther's decree ( Esther 8:13 ), whichpermitted Jews to avenge the wrongs committed against them. The Septuagint not only uses ioudaizo[Ioudai?zw]to translate the Hebrew mityahadim ("to become a Jew"), but adds thatthese Gentiles were circumcised.
In Galatians 2:14 it means to "live like Jews" (RSV, neb, NASB, Phillips),"follow Jewish customs" (NIV), or "live by the Jewish law"(Barclay). The context for this reference is the episode in Antioch when Paul condemnsPeter's withdrawal from table fellowship with Gentile Christians. Peter's actions areviewed by Paul as a serious compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faithalone, lending support to the position that sought to impose Jewish ceremonial law on theGentiles. Thus, Paul interprets Peter's withdrawal in terms of its effect in compellingGentile Christians to live like Jews.
The term "Judaizer" has come to be used in theological parlance to describethe opponents of Paul and Barnabas at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and those who soughtto preach "another gospel" in the churches of Galatia ( Galatians 2:4 Galatians 2:12 ; 6:12 ; cf. Php 3:2 ). In thissense, "Judaizers" refers to Jewish Christians who sought to induce Gentiles toobserve Jewish religious customs: to "judaize." It appears that theseindividuals agreed with much of the apostolic kerygma but sought to regulate the admissionof Gentiles into the covenant people of God through circumcision and the keeping of theceremonial law. Insisting that "Unless you are circumcised … you cannot besaved" ( Acts15:1 ), these "believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees" ( Acts 15:5 ) posed aserious threat to the gospel of grace and the uNIVersality of the Christian mission.
Paul's Galatian epistle portrays the Judaizers as having come from the Jerusalem churchto his churches in Galatia, stressing the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and keep thelaw, both for full acceptance by God (legalism) and as the basis for Christian living (nomism[novmisma]).They understood keeping the law not only as the means by which the blessings of theAbrahamic covenant could be appropriated, but also as the regulative guide for Christianlife within that covenant relationship. Although the Judaizers appear to be concerned withbringing the Galatian Christians to perfection through the observance of the law, Paulcharges them with being motivated by a desire to avoid persecution ( Gal 6:12-13 ).Amidst the rising pressures of Jewish nationalism in Palestine during the mid-firstcentury, and increased Zealot animosity against any Jew who had Gentile sympathies, itwould appear that these Jewish Christians embarked on a judaizing mission among Paul'sconverts in order to prevent Zealot persecution of the Palestinian church

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/judaizers.html

 

[Ryan]

Galatia is a region. being part celtic I know of that side of me. its the origin of the celtic race in one theory.

there was no one church. that is my point paul wasn't writing to the jews in their temple that fell under the high priest.

There was no temple outside of Jerusalem. Look at the book of Galatians. Believers were mixing with non believing Jews. Explain to me how that could occur if they were not meeting in a synagogue?

 

[jasoncran]

Do you think for one second that is what Ezekiel's temple is for? It's for a memorium. Don't forget Paul continued to sacrifice at the temple to complete the Nazarite vow. Sacrifices do not have to be about sin.

You say he atoned at the cross, but the blood of bulls cannot take away sin. So what was the purpose of the temple and Levitical system then?

show me where in word it says this is for a memoriam when in context it mentions polluted offerings?

or to teach what is profane and holy?

it also mentions clearly the sons of zadok and also the recent diaspora. how can that be when zeke was told to go to the elders of isreal?

 

[Ryan]

jews followed them to get them under the law. I have been taught that judaisers did that.




http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/judaizers.html

Judaizing and teaching Gentiles to follow the Law Of Moses in obedience and servitude to God are two completely different things.

 

[jasoncran]

There was no temple outside of Jerusalem. Look at the book of Galatians. Believers were mixing with non believing Jews. Explain to me how that could occur if they were not meeting in a synagogue?

the word synagogue is a greek word not a Hebrew word

I drive by this temple everday

VERO BEACH (INDIAN RIVER)

TEMPLE BETH SHALOM OF VERO BEACH (R)
365 43rd Ave Vero Beach, FL 32968
(772) 569-4700 | Fax: (772) 569-4701 | Map...
Rabbi Michael Z. Birnholz.

notice it says temples not synagouges. raised in temple is a common saying. sheesh for a messianic jew you seem to not know the basics of jewry.

and to show you that nonly reformed do that

TEMPLE BETH SHOLOM (C)
5995 North Wickham Rd Melbourne, FL 32940
(321) 254-6333 | Website... | Map...
Rabbi Richard Margolis

my family is consertive not reformed. they do the torah but not as like the chassidics.

 

[jasoncran]

Judaizing and teaching Gentiles to follow the Law Of Moses in obedience and servitude to God are two completely different things.

not really. they are the same. both do the same. if you think that judaiser didn't say if you believe in the messiah then also revere the law and what you just said isn't the same then I cant help you.

show me in the torah where gentiles that didn't join the exodus were part of the covenant?

if I taught the law your way I would be ran out of my jewish loving gentile church.

 

[Ryan]

show me where in word it says this is for a memoriam when in context it mentions polluted offerings?

or to teach what is profane and holy?

it also mentions clearly the sons of zadok and also the recent diaspora. how can that be when zeke was told to go to the elders of isreal?

Sorry, memorium is not in the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel. What is its purpose then?

Ezekiel 45:17 It shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel.”

Is it to make reconciliation then?

 

[jasoncran]

a conditional promise for the time of exekiel. your verse there fails to take in account that the gate is open only shabat. hmm the law mentions daily sin offerings.

Thus saith the Lord God; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons'; it shall be their possession by inheritance.
17 But if he give a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his to the year of liberty; after it shall return to the prince: but his inheritance shall be his sons' for them.
18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people's inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.

jesus has sex and marries a woman and has son's?

wheres that in the tanach or brit chadosh?

And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

you missed that one above.

so the Lord sins???

But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord God

I try not cherry pick. the priest need to atone before they do what? entire the sanctuary.

the modern saint need not this.

 

[jasoncran]

it gets even better ..

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the Lord, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord God.

are we not accepted Now at the cross when we repent? hmm

notice in that section it mentions now uncircumcised of heart or flesh gentile that is polluted may enter the sanctuary.

And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel

so is iseal doing that now?

 

[Ryan]

the word synagogue is a greek word not a Hebrew word

I drive by this temple everday



notice it says temples not synagouges. raised in temple is a common saying. sheesh for a messianic jew you seem to not know the basics of jewry.

and to show you that nonly reformed do that



my family is consertive not reformed. they do the torah but not as like the chassidics.

Now now, don't get testy. Temple in biblical times solely meant Jerusalem temple. Nothing but.

not really. they are the same. both do the same. if you think that judaiser didn't say if you believe in the messiah then also revere the law and what you just said isn't the same then I cant help you..

Gentiles were taught to follow the Torah. Nothing ever said they had to convert. Is that not what some of the Epistles is about?

show me in the torah where gentiles that didn't join the exodus were part of the covenant?.

Moses father in law, Jethro, the Midianite priest became a believer. Would he not be granted invitation to the Abrahamic covenant by way of his believe? Sojourners and aliens were always included in the Sinai covenant.

if I taught the law your way I would be ran out of my jewish loving gentile church.

And what exactly does that look like? The Torah or Law has been indoctrinated in the Christian church, as being a 4 letter word or curse when the exact opposite is the truth.