When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[childeye]

It is impossible to avoid semantics. Two can only dance well together after first learning why they step on each others toes. You make good points and clearly you have knowledge. Please pardon my brothers and sisters on this forum, for they have good things to say just like you, but alas they don't always say them well.

 

[Mitspa]

The Laws of Gods Kingdom were here from the beginning.

They were even seen in His punishment of the angels that sinned in the days of Noah.

Gods kingdom laws are [partially] seen in the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic covenant Temporarily, as it is written -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made... Galatians 3:19

You will not find a clearer answer in scripture concerning the OP, with the exception of - ... He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.Hebrews 10:8-9

and possibly -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

However what remains is Gods Kingdom Laws that are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was added until the Seed came.


JLB

This very well may be the most clear and evident truth of scripture, that the law has passed away. It is said in so many ways and in so many places "including the Old Testament itself" that I can not understand how so many seem to be unable to accept what is written in such clear terms? I can only look to the scriptures themselves for the answer to this blindness.
2 Cor 3 Says that even until this day, at the reading of the Old Testament and moses, a veil is upon the heart and mind of those who look to the written code. That they can not see the end of that which is passing away.

There really is no need for all the debate? This issue is cut and dry for those who believe the Word of God.
Heb 7:14-19

Now, we have the testimony of the Old testament that God would make a New Convenant, not based upon that which was given to mose. We have The Living Word made flesh, God that died for mans sin. We have all the New Testament epistles and the gospel that all agree to this very truth. THAT CHIRST CAME TO SAVE US FROM THE JUDGEMENT OF THE LAW. This is the gospel, and there is no other!

If any man or even an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel, they are cursed.

 

[childeye]

The Laws of Gods Kingdom were here from the beginning.

They were even seen in His punishment of the angels that sinned in the days of Noah.

Gods kingdom laws are [partially] seen in the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic covenant Temporarily, as it is written -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made... Galatians 3:19

You will not find a clearer answer in scripture concerning the OP, with the exception of - ... He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.Hebrews 10:8-9

and possibly -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

However what remains is Gods Kingdom Laws that are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was added until the Seed came.


JLB

This very well may be the most clear and evident truth of scripture, that the law has passed away. It is said in so many ways and in so many places "including the Old Testament itself" that I can not understand how so many seem to be unable to accept what is written in such clear terms? I can only look to the scriptures themselves for the answer to this blindness.
2 Cor 3 Says that even until this day, at the reading of the Old Testament and moses, a veil is upon the heart and mind of those who look to the written code. That they can not see the end of that which is passing away.

There really is no need for all the debate? This issue is cut and dry for those who believe the Word of God.
Heb 7:14-19

Now, we have the testimony of the Old testament that God would make a New Convenant, not based upon that which was given to mose. We have The Living Word made flesh, God that died for mans sin. We have all the New Testament epistles and the gospel that all agree to this very truth. THAT CHIRST CAME TO SAVE US FROM THE JUDGEMENT OF THE LAW. This is the gospel, and there is no other!

If any man or even an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel, they are cursed.

Hence no one owns the Truth but rather the Truth owns him. Moreover The Word is a person and so is the truth a living Truth and the Gospel a living Gospel. The bible is a testimony to the Word not the Word His Self. Therefore Jesus says, go look in your precious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal Life, for they all testify to me. Having said that, I would like to add that when I read the bible when I first began earnestly seeking answers, I can almost sware that I heard him talk as I read what he said.

 

[About the Son of God]

Hi Francis, this is quite rambling; It's more of brainstorming than a focused commentary; It proably is best to skim it, think about it, and then re-read it; and pick out one or two points...

On the other hand,
Jerimiah merely shows a "new" covenant will come, it does not deny the existence of the old; nor prove it passed away from all existence; nor even does it say that all things of the old law are abolished when a new priesthood arises. (Laws have *many* statutes...) The words "change" in law can be satisfied by the new priesthood changing even one statute; whether or not it changes the others. (Again, To be clear: I don't advocate returning to the Mosaic law)

"Son",

I am enjoying your responses. I thought I might add a bit of input into "new covenant" and what it may mean - just tossing ideas around.

What is new is not that the old would go away, as you note - but a new means of obeying it and having the law close at hand (heart!).

This is the post I've been putting off... but mulling over, slowly.
When you say "means of obeying it"; I am struck by the idea of "power" and "angels" and "demons";
whom are all under Jesus' feet; This is a topic not yet discussed, and I'd like to do a little synthesis later....

Jeremiah was not having a problem with Jews not performing cultic service, Josiah's reforms had kicked in, but that this service was all for show. Hypocritical. No inner conversion.

I was just speaking about this showing up in the psalms, which are primarily prophecy like Jeremiah -- Even though Paul calls them "law"; These Psalms are not "law" in the sense of Torah or prefigurement; but they are prophecy and "law" in the sense that prophets were sent to turn people's hearts back to the "law" of Moses and it's proper observance (from the heart).

In one way, the prophets that God sent to return people to Moses law ended with John the Baptist;

At that point in history: God allowed both a new/renewed law, and simultaneous blindness for Israel; eg: a prophetic hiatus for Israel (not us).
Luke 16:16, Matthew 5:18

The Mosaic Law "written on stone tablets" was neutral. It did not have the power to move people to obey it from the heart. One could obey as God intended - following God with one's heart, or one could obey it legalistically, without any conversion within. The "New" Covenant would grant the People of God a NEW impetus, a new principle, the Holy Spirit, Who would write that law on the hearts of men (as Paul talks about in Romans 2). This Spirit would be poured out lavishly upon the people, as Peter noted in Acts immediately following the Spirit coming to them.

The pouring was prophecy from Joel, "I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh" Acts 2:17 Joel 2:28
Though, oddly, Joel doesn't speak of it in terms of empowering -- only in terms of prophecy; unless I take Joel 2:32 to mean that "calling" (klesis) is done by air (symbolic of spirit) ( The Spirit groaning within us ). But that hardly seems to indicate our new-found ability to obey laws / overcome the weakness of the flesh. Matthew 26:41
(and I mean, Holy Spirit is God, God is Love, love fulfills the law: Obey in Latin is ob-adura = to listen and take into ones heart; ... etc. )

Jethro commented on the water washing the body, and the Holy Spirit being a purifying fire; and I'm trying to see how that might fit with your comments.

Now I'm thinking (Pentecost, 7x7=49 + 1 = 50 --> pente=5 cost=?) That's also called the feast of weeks (a week of weeks), which is the delay time between the harvest of barley and wheat; (the final harvest);

Pentecost, then, I suppose would be understood as when the grain fields/and/or/weeds were burned to prepare for the next year's crops; and the processing (threshing floor, flour milling ) happens.

The fire, simultaneous with field burning, came upon the twelve Luke 3:16-17, Acts 2:2-5; although there isn't much indication it was poured out on all flesh directly. (All is undefined as to what flesh represents, eg:individual or groups.
There was a harvest of 3000 people, though, whom were of different nations. )

Jethro tied the Holy Spirit's purification to man's Spirit; yet Joel ties it to flesh. It's something I'm still pondering...

What is especially new (besides there no longer being a need to be Jewish to be saved) is that God would send His Holy Spirit to help us obey the Divine Law.

It clearly cleanses, and is power from on high, but:
Matthew 12:44, Luke 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

Power to sweep or burn the weeds isn't quite all of the message...
Matthew 12:45, Luke 11:26

Something to think about. This is a complex subject, and I certainly don't have all the answers on this topic.

Regards

Nor do I, but I know you and Jethro are focused in the proper direction; One first cleanses the heart, opens the ears (prepares the body), and then (the threshing floor is clear, the grain is ready -- bread can be made) sacrifices pleasing to God are possible.

Welcome offerings, thanks-giving (charist), well-praising ( eu - logia ), heave offerings, etc. Link:

...

There is a point (locus), however that I'm sure is intimately tied to the subject, that no one has talked about; The absolute inability of man to throw out the angels of Satan (possession) permanently. AKA: Exorcism.

I can find no reference anywhere in the old testament, or in a selection of historical texts (extra-biblical) of a human being capable (by themselves) of throwing out demons;

But this power is given to the apostles and disciples in the new testament; with additional prayer and abstinence, not Just Jesus' name. The power to subject Satan's angels is acquired.

Hebrews 2:5-8 ; Psalm 8:5; You might be interested to note the context of the Psalm also includes infants at the breast, Psalm 8:2. When it comes to powerlessness, the highest contrast is between infants and devils of power. Infants are the most powerless of all.

All the texts I can find of the O.T. and contemporary works of Hebrew origin, (diaspora works), indicate that the devils could only be cast out/ or prevented from harassing man by the power of another angel. Rather than post those, I'd just reference Jude 1:9 as a solitary example.

Psalm 51:5 (and others I could cite) speaks to potential possession of infants on account of their parents sin;
I would have to trace the Greek carefully to explain this.

But it seems to me, that the Holy Spirit is involved in exorcism of devils from access to the flesh.

There's too much to bring up, and I'm still trying to organize my thoughts; but here's a few scriptures to look at, although -- if we could avoid jumping the gun on them -- I'd like a chance to meditate on them before discussing them. There are bound to be more...

Genesis 5:32, 6:1-3 (my spirit).
1Peter 3:18-22 (Noah, Spirit, angels subjected )
Romans 9:11 (done neither good nor evil)
1Corinthians 7:14-15 ( children )
Acts 2:38-40 (Parallel to Noah's preaching, including Noah's children's children)

Another loosely correlated thought:
The strong man not only must eject the demons out of the house, he must *bind* them, which is something that men could never do: Mark 5:4, Mark 5:12-15 (The swine returned to the "sea" but did not leave the country, so could arise again.) As a loose correlation: Compare Daniel 7:3-4 and note eagle's are the flags raised by Rome's "Legions". (Possessed).

Final thought:
If the new covenant gives the power to obey the law, then it appears to have something to do with freeing us of someone who is stronger than us; so that we may decide.

 

[francisdesales]

Final thought:
If the new covenant gives the power to obey the law, then it appears to have something to do with freeing us of someone who is stronger than us; so that we may decide.

I agree, but because we still sin, to a lesser degree, one must wonder about some who talk about "flesh" v "spirit" as if one is wholly one or the other. I see it as more "grey" while we walk this earth.

There is no mathematical formula in Scriptures on how the Spirit of God and our own desires and the influence of satan all interact in an individual's life. It would be difficult to rule out Satan entirely from the picture of even the most holy of saints, since he continues to prowl the flock, looking for opportunities to throw us off track. And of course, God's Spirit is involved, as Phil 2:12-13 states so elegantly. How "much" does God's Spirit influence us when we are faced with an ethical decision? How much of the 'old man' resurfaces? The fact that we may occasionally sin tells us that the 'old man' is not entirely out of the picture. No, we are not subject to him, enslaved to his whims, but he is still there. I don't agree with Luther's idea that man is a beast, ridden by God or satan. It is not so black and white, nor is man in such an unhappy situation, as you posted several citations on the dignity of man.

It would appear that in the Old Covenant, the Spirit of God was not as lavishly doled out among the people (that is the implication of Joel's prophesy for the new 'day'). So how did people follow the Law? Fear of God? The first step of wisdom. Legalism? Cultural indoctrination? It does appear that the prophets constantly were calling for inner conversion - they wouldn't make this call if it was not possible. Or were just the priests and kings, the anointed - were just they addressed?

With the New Covenant, the Spirit is given to more people at a different level. Maybe in the OT, God gave everyone 1 amp of the Spirit and now, 5 to 10 amps, depending upon His will. (LOL, the 'engineer' coming out). The one amp was sufficient to move the will to do good, but it was very weak and did not overcome the selfish desires of men too often. The 5 or 10 amps is greater force, but still, not enough to always enough to turn on the light bulb. Someone keeps adding a big resistor to our circuit! It is a variable resistor. It appears we have some control of it, but the devil is also allowed to put his grubby hands on that resistor. Maybe he is adding another series resistor and I am the variable resistor!

A crude attempt to turn this into an electronics class, probably not entirely accurate. But from self examination, I know that sometimes, I crank up the resistance and the light stays off. Other times, I recognize God's Spirit working on my desires and I reduce the resistance... From this, I know that I am not always walking in the light, while other times I am. In other words, sanctification is an ongoing process of changing that variable resistor to a smaller size, so over time, I am more often able to light the light bulb.

How about that?

Regards

 

[eddif]

The subject title says it all. I have had different answers to this question from people I know. What does this forum think?

First, people need to understand that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews alone. If one is going to argue that non-Jews of our day are to follow the Law of Moses, one would need to make that case. I think that would be hard to do - although Paul does sometimes talk of the Church as the true Israel, he is otherwise quite clear that the Law of Moses was "retired" at the cross (strictly speaking, shortly after the cross).

I believe that no one - neither Jew nor Gentile - is supposed to follow the Law of Moses.

Let me deal with a huge conceptual problem that many stumble over: Yes, the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses. But it is simply not correct logic to argue that if the Law of Moses has been set aside, that this would mean its ok to commit murder, commit adultery, etc.

Let me explain by analogy. Suppose you live a country with a "law" that says "don't kick puppies". Suppose, that for some technical reason, that law is set aside. Does that mean its morally acceptable to kick puppies?

Of course not.

The point is this: No one is under the Law of Moses in the sense that it is not the source, or grounds, for our actions. But that does not mean we are free to do as we please.

Paul explains that we have been given the Holy Spirit to replace the Law as the basis for how we live.

Please do not fall for the mistake of presuming that laws - written codes of conduct - are the only basis for moral behaviour. This is clearly not the case. In fact, no one ever told me that its illegal to kick puppies. And maybe it is not illegal. But that's hardly the point - I do not need a written code to tell me its morally wrong to kick puppies.

I used to think about like you. Now folks just believe I am strange.

At least two groups get the law, but it seems in different ways.
Romans 2:13-16 and surrounding text.
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Jewish persons got the physical written law (had a little trouble following it, but they physically received it). According to the Jewish author above the Gentiles have the meaning of the law written in their hearts (the Law is not written on stone, but in stony hearts made flesh).

The Jewish author even stated the Gentiles do at least some of the law.


Let us go on to the puppies.

I Corinthians 9:10-11
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
(The Oxen stand as a type and a shadow of Preachers / Teachers/ Church workers today----people are the thing God wants most to help).

If the puppy law writers had really been thinking when the law was written, then they would have had baby Christians in mind.
"don't kick puppies". Would actually mean do not kick young baby Christians. Now a baby might be a literal baby or a 55 year old Christian that is a babe in his thinking. Even as I write this I see myself kicking someone (I hope the kick is gentle / correctional and leads to good). I do not believe in kicking puppies as a rule, but I am not tender toward dogs and kick people with feet or words.

We think of the physical written on stone Law, but we really need to be thinking of Jews and Gentiles both having the Law written on our hearts of born again flesh (so we can do the works of the Law). I am probably the most in need of all this. I may can talk it, but can I walk it?

The Mississippi jerk
eddif

 

[Drew]

As posters who know will already know, and as per an earlier post in this thread, I believe that the Bible teaches that the Law of Moses was "retired" at around the time of the cross. I strongly suspect that many believe that the Law of Moses is "eternal" in it applicablility. Well, I would challenge that on at least two grounds.

First, in respect to Old Testament passages which appear to assert that the prescriptions of the Law are eternal: If you look at the original Hebrew, you will find that the word that gets translated as "forever" really means something like "for an age".

Second, there is a compelling argument that the Law of Moses served a very specific, "dark" role in redemption: It served to harden Israel in the very specific sense that it drew the sins of the world onto her, so that these sins could then be transferred to her representative Messiah, Jesus, and dealt with on the cross. This is, admittedly, an "unusual" model that is not familiar to many. But, in its defence, it is attributable to highly respected theologian NT Wright. If this notion is correct, once sin had been dealt with on the cross, the Law was no longer needed and hence "retired".

 

[francisdesales]

As posters who know will already know, and as per an earlier post in this thread, I believe that the Bible teaches that the Law of Moses was "retired" at around the time of the cross. I strongly suspect that many believe that the Law of Moses is "eternal" in it applicablility. Well, I would challenge that on at least two grounds.

Yes, retired, in the sense that the curtain in the Temple was torn in two (by God - from top to bottom)...

The law of Moses is not eternal, it is done. However, the dictates of what I call Torah - the eternal law of God, God's Wisdom, that remains. You shall not kill is one such law, always in existence. Related even to Cain on his heart, known by every Gentile and Jew and later codified on the Decalogue. The Mosaic law has no legal force. The Church continues to teach this.

Now, an analogy would be like considering the Magna Carta and the Constitution. There are some human rights in the Magna Carta listed that are later taken up by the Constitution many years later. The Magna Carta has no legal force on any American. However, rights once listed in the Magna Carta are now listed in a document that IS binding upon us, the Bill of Rights. Same with Christianity viz a viz the Mosaic Law. "Thou shall not kill" remains in force, not because it is part of the Mosaic Law, but because Christ and the Church binds us to the Law of Christ, which includes a more stricter version of "Thou shall not kill".

It is a judicial issue, not an ethical one.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Same with Christianity viz a viz the Mosaic Law. "Thou shall not kill" remains in force, not because it is part of the Mosaic Law, but because Christ and the Church binds us to the Law of Christ, which includes a more stricter version of "Thou shall not kill".

I will go along with that as long as we agree that the "source" of this "new law" is no written code, but rather the informing action of the Holy Spirit. In short, I beleive that no human being needs to "tell" a spirit-filled Christian that its wrong to commit murder.

 

[Sparkey]

May I say without fear of contradiction what all believers understand?

That we all know and understand by our very experience that the law, which was written into stone, is now written and being written into our hearts, the very fleshly "tablets" of our hearts? This is the promise that was given first to the woman known by us as Eve (and to her seed). These are the workings that was pointed to, referenced by the "law" that was delivered to the then saints of God known as the Hebrews and "Children of Israel," the one who prevailed with the Lord and whose very name was changed even as his walk was effected. This is indeed what they (even the Prophets) pondered, what manner of thing is this? When they too considered the actions of the Holy Spirit in them and in their lives. And this is also what was shown to them, that it was not directly for their benefit, but for ours, the saints that would come after.

This is the word that show us who God is, that was seen by the only begotten Son of God (and none other) who clothed himself in flesh and walked among us, delivering the message as purely as it was spoken into His heart to "all who would listen". This is the very law that was spoken of by all the prophets and in every book of the Bible that is being formed within us now as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit who was given to Gentiles on that day, 49 days after the celebration of the Wave offering when Jesus rode that last time into Jerusalem. This is the word that confirms that it was his body that he was speaking about during that Last Supper. This is the word that includes more than the written law, that includes the richness and abundance of blessing that we inherit, for the exchange that each has made, our shame for His Righteousness.

And this is the word that is engrafted into each of us and able to save us as we call upon the Name of the Lord and speak the word of truth, trusting that He is the Son of God and knowing that He came in the flesh, was sacrificed, and has purchased for us such a heritage. This is the cause for our baptism, asking God for a conscience that is able to stand before Him as sons, running to the throne of Grace with such expectancy as one runs to his/her Abba/Father. And this is the very word that joins us together, in our desire to be conformed, reformed and molded, joining in death, sanctifying us unto the rising in newness of life. And this is the life, the very life of our Master as each submits to His command, "If you love me, obey me." It is no longer out of fear for consequence but now from hope for promised consequence and continued blessing that we go to Him who is God. For who may approach Him unless it is with hope for reward?

And it is now that we may approach together, our Father in heaven, joined together in the promise spoken into our hearts, with the anticipation of another promise, that of becoming the "nation" who speaks the same things and is seen by others as "born in a day". This is why our tongues are controlled and harnessed, it is because we agree with James who declared that if this is not the case, our religion is in vain. No longer do we look about seeking difference, no longer are we merely dry bones in that valley spoken of by the Prophet Ezekiel, but now He has entered us and cause us to breathe. There are ligaments joining muscle to bone; flesh has appeared and skin on that flesh... there was a moment when there was no breath, but the Lord has provided life as we go before Him when we see our brothers sinning and ask (as John has declared). The Prophecy, the very word of God that we speak here today continues to heal and to cause us to join together as we walk toward the New Jerusalem promised and described in the Reveal that Jesus gave to John on that isle not that long ago, for we know that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise but that he is unwilling that any be lost and says, "not much longer" to each here.

May I say this without fear of contradiction? Well, maybe no. I may have made some slight error in typing and would appreciate correction, but even as I ask for this, may I also encourage those who read critically to read well the heart felt cry. It is not my own.

"You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor 3:2-3

 

[childeye]

Sparrowhawke. I just read your heartfelt post. I am afraid to speak.

 

[About the Son of God]

A crude attempt to turn this into an electronics class, probably not entirely accurate. But from self examination, I know that sometimes, I crank up the resistance and the light stays off. Other times, I recognize God's Spirit working on my desires and I reduce the resistance... From this, I know that I am not always walking in the light, while other times I am. In other words, sanctification is an ongoing process of changing that variable resistor to a smaller size, so over time, I am more often able to light the light bulb. How about that?

This is obviously not a general purpose reply....
I don't how closely you studied the history of electricity; But: An electron is invisible, it can't be put under a microscope, and just like theology different theories sparked considerable controversy.
I'd sum it up like this: Ampere crossed Voltaire, and in the scuffle nobody knew Watt they were talking about.

So, How about that?

I agree, but because we still sin, to a lesser degree, one must wonder about some who talk about "flesh" v "spirit" as if one is wholly one or the other. I see it as more "grey" while we walk this earth. There is no mathematical formula in Scriptures on how the Spirit of God and our own desires and the influence of satan all interact in an individual's life.

:yes

I like going back to etymology (word study); and studying spirit/flesh from a large number of examples.
The point of using spirit, (Heb: "ruah", Gk: "pneuma") in scripture is that everyone can identify empirically what it means. (And we've forgotten... because in English we generally say Breath -- not Spirit)

A person who breaths is alive; they can "ex-spire", "in-spire", catch "pneum-onia", and speak "from the heart"; (In ancient medical theory -- they thought the heart acted like the vocal cords.... -- and we still use the idiom. That was "spoken from the heart" )

A man, then, is body (earth,water) and spirit; He is composed of three "elements" of the four assumed in the ancient world; the four "substances" are "Earth, water, wind, and Fire." ; So the only one man lacks, is "fire";

There is much to say on this point, which shows up in scripture (Noah,etc.) if you start looking carefully: 2Peter 3:5 ; but let's set that aside for now....

I think you are correct, there's no "formula" we know of which explains how much of one spirit, (or another) moves a person; but we do know, for example, that when a man breathes his last and God withdraws his spirit (the spirit is gone) he dies. (eg: Genesis 6:3 it's as if we are loaned "spirit" to live on.)

But there are many ways spirit, demons, and body, flesh could interact... and I think we ought to explore this a bit more, (since the law is somewhat based on it...)

In electronics, I'm not sure if you are familiar with a thing called "black box" analysis -- so I'm sorry if this is redundant; but this is kind of the idea I have...

Black box analysis is a method for determining what (linear) circuit will copy the actions of an unknown circuit in a hidden box that you aren't allowed to look inside of. All the information comes strictly from the boundary of the box, where it meets the outside world, and which can freely be inspected or manipulated.

The resulting (linear) model is guaranteed a perfect operational replica of the mystery item in the black box; (Caveat: there may be many ways of doing the *exact* same thing. SO it's a copy, not clone.)

Just so, we can't put the spirit under a microscope (it's invisible), but we know many things about the boundaries from scripture. So, it seems the best way to study it is by playing "what if" using the facts we know, and eliminating possibilities that *won't* work.

We know, for example, that spirit is not flesh; and that without spirit, flesh dies. Hence, flesh *alone* is useless -- it is elementally just dust, or earth, ... ( Remember man you are dust, and to dust you shall return; & to the serpent, -- you will eat dust... )

We know that Angels are spirits, and since they are spirits they don't have fleshly genitals; which is supported (not proved) by Matthew 22:30

Which, we can then make a hypothesis/conjecture; Spirit is what animates flesh and forms it, and makes it do things.
When a man is possessed, it is the evil spirit which opens the mouth: Luke 4:33-35.

And from all Jesus' discourses -- It's apparently the spirit which gives the life *itself* to the flesh and makes it alive.
OTOH: Blood, is that which carries air (spirit/breath) throughout the body.

I might have missed something, but I think the exact phrasing of scripture is that "life is in the blood" rather than "blood is the life." ?

So, that's a thumbnail sketch....

one must wonder about some who talk about "flesh" v "spirit" as if one is wholly one or the other

:yes
I would also go beyond saying it's a gray area; for it's true even after the resurrection that body and spirit must be together. I am perhaps answering more to what you said, than what I think you meant -- eg: that evil spirits are what I think you meant; whereas I am just talking about spirit in general.

If a person were only spirit, they would have no body/flesh; if they were only body/flesh, they would be dead.
A spiritual person, then, is the person who's body is fully under control of their spirit; not a bodiless ghost.

Eg: Even in the resurrection (of the body), then we will be "like him", we will be both body and spirit like him::
Luke 24:37, Luke 24:42-43,
So that it is clear the spirit (which gives life) still can mold the things of earth (even after resurrection) into one's own body (fish,honey,bread...); but it is also clear that the spirit is more powerful than before, being able to form the body in such a way as to pass through locked doors. etc. which we can't do.

It's a natural power to be able to make bread, food, water into one's body by eating and drinking; but there is evidently more that a spirit can do -- if not interfered with by Satan, or weakness.

-------- sidebar -------
And, notice, when doing this kind of study -- how little scriptural comments speaking to the O.P. just naturally get stumbled over where I hadn't noticed it before?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus is speaking, I think, about the ONLY two places where these words are said in scripture -- eg: the topic of the thread; and yet -- he is telling us, those sayings refer only to him (here). Luke 24:45-47

---- end sidebar ----


I think you'll have followed my sketch, so far;
These are tentative conclusions I've come to .... unless someone has a good objection:

1) Man is water, earth, spirit -- But: The holy spirit is fire; completing the rest ; (allegorical reasoning)
2) Spirit itself is scriptural equivalent to life, alive
3) Spirits don't have bodies intrinsically, and therefore no natural genitals
4) Spirits do not necessarily have the ability to take over another person's soul, but they can take over the body.

That leads to children, and being born with a "sin nature".
The ideas of children, offspring, and possession -- is clearly scriptural:
John 8:44, Psalm 51:5, Genesis 6:2

I also know that the title "sons of God" is applied to angels, devils, and to the sons of God by anointing (like Cyrus, Moses, etc.) -- Our inheritance of the title will be at least as valid as theirs, if not considerably more.

They are spoken of like this: Psalm 82:6-7

So, going back to Genesis 6:2, again,

Some scholars (against my opinion) do claim that angels themselves attempted to mate directly with women in violation of God's edict (cf: Matthew 22:30 )

But If "son of God" is an angel, then Genesis 6:2 could also be about people whom God anointed, marrying people of a wicked bent (possessed) -- eg: they accepted devils into their marriage.

I say this because I don't see how it's possible for spirits to "mate" without DNA, flesh, and so fourth -- which angels clearly don't have of their very own

Another opinion I've read is that "sons of God" refers to Seth's children (holy ones) and the daughters of "men" refers ("men" taken pejoratively as arrogant) to Cain's daughters, who were beautiful -- but vain, and sinful & already polygamous; Yielding troublesome/stubborn children.

Even with us, today, and no miraculous angels....
We call many children's activities the "terrible two's", and so forth (eg: toddlers) -- and we often push them away, or attempt to pen them up (cry rooms..) for the same reason.

But Jesus is able to bind demons.... casting them out, upon faith; so what of children with no mental/visible faith?

Matthew 18:2 And Jesus called a little child (GK: paidion,== toddler ) unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3-5 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I can't find the other verse, but I am sure there is a place -- where children (toddlers) to young to even walk are being brought to Jesus, and the disciples don't like the fuss the kids are making; but Jesus says something to stop them .... what was it?

 

[francisdesales]

A crude attempt to turn this into an electronics class, probably not entirely accurate. But from self examination, I know that sometimes, I crank up the resistance and the light stays off. Other times, I recognize God's Spirit working on my desires and I reduce the resistance... From this, I know that I am not always walking in the light, while other times I am. In other words, sanctification is an ongoing process of changing that variable resistor to a smaller size, so over time, I am more often able to light the light bulb. How about that?

This is obviously not a general purpose reply....
I don't how closely you studied the history of electricity; But: An electron is invisible, it can't be put under a microscope, and just like theology different theories sparked considerable controversy.
I'd sum it up like this: Ampere crossed Voltaire, and in the scuffle nobody knew Watt they were talking about.

So, How about that?

Yes, I like it! I thought you would appreciate it. Of course, electricity, like the work of the Spirit, is "invisible" and we can only measure its effect. Our "meter" in the spiritual life is how we love our neighbor, according to St. John.

I like going back to etymology (word study); and studying spirit/flesh from a large number of examples.
The point of using spirit, (Heb: "ruah", Gk: "pneuma") in scripture is that everyone can identify empirically what it means. (And we've forgotten... because in English we generally say Breath -- not Spirit)

A person who breaths is alive; they can "ex-spire", "in-spire", catch "pneum-onia", and speak "from the heart"; (In ancient medical theory -- they thought the heart acted like the vocal cords.... -- and we still use the idiom. That was "spoken from the heart" )

A man, then, is body (earth,water) and spirit; He is composed of three "elements" of the four assumed in the ancient world; the four "substances" are "Earth, water, wind, and Fire." ; So the only one man lacks, is "fire";

There is much to say on this point, which shows up in scripture (Noah,etc.) if you start looking carefully: 2Peter 3:5 ; but let's set that aside for now....

I think you are correct, there's no "formula" we know of which explains how much of one spirit, (or another) moves a person; but we do know, for example, that when a man breathes his last and God withdraws his spirit (the spirit is gone) he dies. (eg: Genesis 6:3 it's as if we are loaned "spirit" to live on.)

But there are many ways spirit, demons, and body, flesh could interact... and I think we ought to explore this a bit more, (since the law is somewhat based on it...)

OK. I'll try to follow.

In electronics, I'm not sure if you are familiar with a thing called "black box" analysis -- so I'm sorry if this is redundant; but this is kind of the idea I have...

Black box analysis is a method for determining what (linear) circuit will copy the actions of an unknown circuit in a hidden box that you aren't allowed to look inside of. All the information comes strictly from the boundary of the box, where it meets the outside world, and which can freely be inspected or manipulated.

I operate on the 'repair' side of electronics, so I am unfamiliar with this at my job, but I am following along!

Just so, we can't put the spirit under a microscope (it's invisible), but we know many things about the boundaries from scripture. So, it seems the best way to study it is by playing "what if" using the facts we know, and eliminating possibilities that *won't* work.

No, but like electricity, it is "measureable" by its effect. That is how theologians like Thomas Aquinas describe such matters. The effect tells us what spirit is influencing us at the moment (or at least which spirit "won" to become the catalyst for the action). This is the Scripture I have in mind in how the Spirit's effects can be measured:


Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, [then] we have confidence in God; and whatsoever we ask, we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he has commanded us. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.: 1 John 3:21-24

John commented earlier that those who talk about walking in the spirit but hate their neighbor is a liar. We can't trust the measurement that uses the mouth! No "mouth-meters". We must use a different way of measuring the Spirit's presence - and that is the good deeds that He leads us to do. We know that we can do NOTHING good without Jesus, we can't even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit, so that eliminates us as force behind the work. We do participate, and that is the unknown, but we judge a tree by its fruit, so I am thinking that the Spirit is "measureable" to the degree that one loves others. Not how much they talk the talk...

We know, for example, that spirit is not flesh; and that without spirit, flesh dies. Hence, flesh *alone* is useless -- it is elementally just dust, or earth, ... ( Remember man you are dust, and to dust you shall return; & to the serpent, -- you will eat dust... )

We know that Angels are spirits, and since they are spirits they don't have fleshly genitals; which is supported (not proved) by Matthew 22:30. Which, we can then make a hypothesis/conjecture; Spirit is what animates flesh and forms it, and makes it do things.
When a man is possessed, it is the evil spirit which opens the mouth: Luke 4:33-35.

And from all Jesus' discourses -- It's apparently the spirit which gives the life *itself* to the flesh and makes it alive.
OTOH: Blood, is that which carries air (spirit/breath) throughout the body.

I might have missed something, but I think the exact phrasing of scripture is that "life is in the blood" rather than "blood is the life." ?

So, that's a thumbnail sketch....

one must wonder about some who talk about "flesh" v "spirit" as if one is wholly one or the other

:yes
I would also go beyond saying it's a gray area; for it's true even after the resurrection that body and spirit must be together. I am perhaps answering more to what you said, than what I think you meant -- eg: that evil spirits are what I think you meant; whereas I am just talking about spirit in general.

In my "flesh" v "spirit" comment, i am not speaking of invisible beings, but the Pauline idea that distinguishes between works of the flesh v works of the spirit - which would mean following after our own desires v God's desires (works of the spirit here cannot be evil desires, since there would be no distinction between the two).

If a person were only spirit, they would have no body/flesh; if they were only body/flesh, they would be dead.
A spiritual person, then, is the person who's body is fully under control of their spirit; not a bodiless ghost.

Here, under spiritual control doesn't help much, as above comment. There are good and evil spirits, so a "spiritual person" could refer to someone totally under control of satan. I don't believe that the Scriptures denote a spiritual man as one following the devil. I believe a "spiritual" person refers to one following the Spirit of God.

Eg: Even in the resurrection (of the body), then we will be "like him", we will be both body and spirit like him::
Luke 24:37, Luke 22:42-43,
So that it is clear the spirit (which gives life) still can mold the things of earth (even after resurrection) into one's own body (fish,honey,bread...); but it is also clear that the spirit is more powerful than before, being able to form the body in such a way as to pass through locked doors. etc. which we can't do.

It's a natural power to be able to make bread, food, water into one's body by eating and drinking; but there is evidently more that a spirit can do -- if not interfered with by Satan, or weakness.

-------- sidebar -------
And, notice, when doing this kind of study -- how little scriptural comments speaking to the O.P. just naturally get stumbled over where I hadn't noticed it before?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus is speaking, I think, about the ONLY two places where these words are said in scripture -- eg: the topic of the thread; and yet -- he is telling us, those sayings refer only to him (here). Luke 22:45-47

I think Jesus had His death in mind when He mentioned that He would not change the Law until fulfillment. Thus, the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom - the end of the Mosaic Law. Hebrews backs up the idea that Mosaic cultic practices are over because of the event at the Cross. Acts speaks about the end of dietary laws. And of course Paul says that the works of the law do not justify, which doesn't leave much left for it.

I think you'll have followed my sketch, so far;
These are tentative conclusions I've come to .... unless someone has a good objection:

1) Man is water, earth, spirit -- But: The holy spirit is fire; completing the rest ; (allegorical reasoning)
2) Spirit itself is scriptural equivalent to life, alive
3) Spirits don't have bodies intrinsically, and therefore no natural genitals
4) Spirits do not necessarily have the ability to take over another person's soul, but they can take over the body.

# 3, uh, what's that for?!!

That leads to children, and being born with a "sin nature".

To us Catholics, being born with a sin nature means NOT being born with sanctifying grace, God's vivifying presence. It is the absence of God that is the issue.

Some scholars (against my opinion) do claim that angels themselves attempted to mate directly with women in violation of God's edict (cf: Matthew 22:30 )

But If "son of God" is an angel, then Genesis 6:2 could also be about people whom God anointed, marrying people of a wicked bent (possessed) -- eg: they accepted devils into their marriage.

I say this because I don't see how it's possible for spirits to "mate" without DNA, flesh, and so fourth -- which angels clearly don't have of their very own

Another opinion I've read is that "sons of God" refers to Seth's children (holy ones) and the daughters of "men" refers ("men" taken pejoratively as arrogant) to Cain's daughters, who were beautiful -- but vain, and sinful & already polygamous; Yielding troublesome/stubborn children.

Even with us, today, and no miraculous angels....
We call many children's activities the "terrible two's", and so forth (eg: toddlers) -- and we often push them away, or attempt to pen them up (cry rooms..) for the same reason.

But Jesus is able to bind demons.... casting them out, upon faith; so what of children with no mental/visible faith?

Matthew 18:2 And Jesus called a little child (GK: paidion,== toddler ) unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3-5 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I can't find the other verse, but I am sure there is a place -- where children (toddlers) to young to even walk are being brought to Jesus, and the disciples don't like the fuss the kids are making; but Jesus says something to stop them .... what was it?

This might be a bit beyond the scope of things. I do agree that children are not to be kept from Christ - which (based on what I said about "sin nature") explains in part why infant baptism is a worthwhile act.

Regards

 

[About the Son of God]

Originally Posted by About the Son of God View Post I would also go beyond saying it's a gray area; for it's true even after the resurrection that body and spirit must be together. I am perhaps answering more to what you said, than what I think you meant -- eg: that evil spirits are what I think you meant; whereas I am just talking about spirit in general. In my "flesh" v "spirit" comment,

i am not speaking of invisible beings, but the Pauline idea that distinguishes between works of the flesh v works of the spirit - which would mean following after our own desires v God's desires (works of the spirit here cannot be evil desires, since there would be no distinction between the two).

Yes, I see the distinction in Paul; I explained badly, I now see...

I am thinking that spirit animates the flesh; So how is it that flesh can do anything by itself?
What exactly does Paul mean in terms of flesh, a man's spirit,; and my extension to other spirits which may also manipulate his body?

Is Paul, in your opinion, saying that the sinful desires are not something that the spirit (of a man) can choose? For if this "law of sin", is actually in the flesh (not just metaphorically) -- and it's nowhere in the spirit -- then upon death, the spirit is free of sin; it merely needs clean flesh to arise in;

It would seem possible, then, that "sin" is merely the defect of the body, and a medical condition... and medication, or surgery might even remove the devil .... :D !

The body can be damaged, disease, brain dysfunction, etc. But again, this is characteristic of the punishments God allows Satan to do to us; Genesis 3:14-15,
And it's spoken of in terms of Satan; 2Corinthians 12:7, 1Corinthians 5:5, etc...

And In scripture, for example, we have the example I gave of Miriam, where we know what it did was to her body: Numbers 12:10-12 -- and I think it very suggestive how scripture ties her condition to the corruption of a child from the womb vv:12;

But if it's medical, then Romans 5:12, could be speaking of something man might cure. (I'm being facetious )

But -- let's move away from Paul's symbology into your more theological idea;

I think there is still a mysterious element of the sin nature/original sin which is passed on by "propagation"; for I am pretty sure that not even Catholics allow for evolutionary polygenesis where sin infects man in "parallel" (Polygenesis are theories of many Adams and Eve's, or races of man from different parents. All must be *from* Adam for original sin to hold -- I post this just to verify the position, not to go off on a tangent.... -- "Humani Generis" Pope Piux XII? circa 1950; google search for it. )

I look at Paul's writing, and your comment, and I can't help wondering if Paul's statement implies we need a new source of flesh; for that which we have is unclean.

Jethro has stated the idea that the Holy Spirit cleanses the spirit, but he only talks about water cleaning the flesh -- !! so that must be some pretty powerful water !!

Although the old law certainly had purifications for flesh, and for sin,
Jethro also spoke about there being sin that the law (Old law) could not forgive...

Do you agree?
And what do you think those are?

For Jethro said: the Law could not forgive certain sins (eg: murder) -- but at the same time; I have noticed that a man's life has a fixed monetary value according to the law of Moses (I can look it up in Exodus-Numbers, but a quick example for now -- Jesus went for a *calculated* price of 20 pieces of silver) They were mistaken concerning Jesus, but none the less -- a normal man's life has a fixed value relative to other men.

In a real sense, then (Moses law wise), when a person dies they are "paying" for their sin, for that person has to give up (forfeit) the value of the remainder of their life. It's not entirely clear, then, whether or not the sin needs to be forgiven; for reparation (in some cases) can be made by death. ( this is getting fun ).

Originally Posted by About the Son of God View Post If a person were only spirit, they would have no body/flesh; if they were only body/flesh, they would be dead. A spiritual person, then, is the person who's body is fully under control of their spirit; not a bodiless ghost.

Here, under spiritual control doesn't help much, as above comment. There are good and evil spirits, so a "spiritual person" could refer to someone totally under control of satan. I don't believe that the Scriptures denote a spiritual man as one following the devil. I believe a "spiritual" person refers to one following the Spirit of God.

I'm in total agreement; I misspoke earlier -- and the mistake propagated by digital generation.

However, I meant spiritual as only "life giving"; but you are totally correct. The devil is personified death, power of death, (and there's a real devil, TOO!); Yet spirit, as a word, is intrinsically life. So the devil is the exception to the rule.... Is there a foot in mouth emoticon? :crazy

Quote Originally Posted by About the Son of God View Post That leads to children, and being born with a "sin nature". To us Catholics, being born with a sin nature means NOT being born with sanctifying grace, God's vivifying presence. It is the absence of God that is the issue.

But if I am not mistaken, There are historians (A Calvinist mentioned a "St." Augustine, I think, once) arguing against Pelagius around the year ~400; and used the fact that exorcisms were performed in all the churches of his time without exception, during baptism of infants, as a proof that man had a sin nature/original sin -- eg: as a tradition all known churches once accepted; and therefore assumed to go all the way back to Jesus himself.
That's where this Augustine mentioned Psalm 51:5 ;

SO, although I'm tracing this from a strictly biblical point, I don't see how your remark about "lack" can in any way really be different, unless your churches don't perform and exorcism any more (rejecting of Satan?).

I realize there is a difference between "concupiscence" and sin; but I don't know that we can really work that out here....

Back to the "tittles" of the law:
One of the largest correspondences I can see between the old law and the new is on the comparison of Circumcision with Baptism ; so although you might not see the value in exploring possession of babies, yet, I think it's actually very close to the heart of the matter of what "power" the new law has over the "old";

I honestly don't know where it will lead, but I hope by sharing thoughts -- I'll learn something new, or more perfectly.

John 3:5-6

... If flesh begets flesh, then how is it that sin propagates? ( if sin is a lack, what does the flesh lack?)

It's something to ponder....

 

[Mitspa]

May I say without fear of contradiction what all believers understand?

That we all know and understand by our very experience that the law, which was written into stone, is now written and being written into our hearts, the very fleshly "tablets" of our hearts? This is the promise that was given first to the woman known by us as Eve (and to her seed). These are the workings that was pointed to, referenced by the "law" that was delivered to the then saints of God known as the Hebrews and "Children of Israel," the one who prevailed with the Lord and whose very name was changed even as his walk was effected. This is indeed what they (even the Prophets) pondered, what manner of thing is this? When they too considered the actions of the Holy Spirit in them and in their lives. And this is also what was shown to them, that it was not directly for their benefit, but for ours, the saints that would come after.

This is the word that show us who God is, that was seen by the only begotten Son of God (and none other) who clothed himself in flesh and walked among us, delivering the message as purely as it was spoken into His heart to "all who would listen". This is the very law that was spoken of by all the prophets and in every book of the Bible that is being formed within us now as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit who was given to Gentiles on that day, 49 days after the celebration of the Wave offering when Jesus rode that last time into Jerusalem. This is the word that confirms that it was his body that he was speaking about during that Last Supper. This is the word that includes more than the written law, that includes the richness and abundance of blessing that we inherit, for the exchange that each has made, our shame for His Righteousness.

And this is the word that is engrafted into each of us and able to save us as we call upon the Name of the Lord and speak the word of truth, trusting that He is the Son of God and knowing that He came in the flesh, was sacrificed, and has purchased for us such a heritage. This is the cause for our baptism, asking God for a conscience that is able to stand before Him as sons, running to the throne of Grace with such expectancy as one runs to his/her Abba/Father. And this is the very word that joins us together, in our desire to be conformed, reformed and molded, joining in death, sanctifying us unto the rising in newness of life. And this is the life, the very life of our Master as each submits to His command, "If you love me, obey me." It is no longer out of fear for consequence but now from hope for promised consequence and continued blessing that we go to Him who is God. For who may approach Him unless it is with hope for reward?

And it is now that we may approach together, our Father in heaven, joined together in the promise spoken into our hearts, with the anticipation of another promise, that of becoming the "nation" who speaks the same things and is seen by others as "born in a day". This is why our tongues are controlled and harnessed, it is because we agree with James who declared that if this is not the case, our religion is in vain. No longer do we look about seeking difference, no longer are we merely dry bones in that valley spoken of by the Prophet Ezekiel, but now He has entered us and cause us to breathe. There are ligaments joining muscle to bone; flesh has appeared and skin on that flesh... there was a moment when there was no breath, but the Lord has provided life as we go before Him when we see our brothers sinning and ask (as John has declared). The Prophecy, the very word of God that we speak here today continues to heal and to cause us to join together as we walk toward the New Jerusalem promised and described in the Reveal that Jesus gave to John on that isle not that long ago, for we know that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise but that he is unwilling that any be lost and says, "not much longer" to each here.

May I say this without fear of contradiction? Well, maybe no. I may have made some slight error in typing and would appreciate correction, but even as I ask for this, may I also encourage those who read critically to read well the heart felt cry. It is not my own.

"You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor 3:2-3

Hawk I always find so much to agree with you on, could I add a thought to your post? That the written code is really Christ Jesus. The Word of God, and it is not nor was it ever Gods intention to write a set of rules upon our heart. But His Own Image in the Person of Christ Jesus. So it is not rules being formed in us, it is Christ being formed. Now I do not pretend to understand the depths of the point I have tried to make, but I know this, that as long as believers are trying to see their heart as a list of rules? They are missing much of what God desires in us. That by a "New Nature" divine nature we would walk and live. Now a nature is not a set of rules, but what one does naturally in liberty from the very motives of who they are. The goal is that we would through Gods Love, become like God and share in His thoughts, intentions and motives.

Conformed to His Image, from glory to glory.

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrowhawke. I just read your heartfelt post. I am afraid to speak.

Thank you. I know the "fear and trembling" myself and would venture to say so does the Statesman/Prophet known as Isaiah, the one who felt comfortable as he appeared before KINGS and spoke the word of God. The one who pronounced a curse upon himself, "O woe is me!" Because he was given to see the difference between himself, a man "of unclean lips" from among a people of unclean lips (me included) and the Holy, Holy, Holy of our Lord. And yet, the word is in your mouth. It is not far. It is nigh and in your mouth. You know what I will say. Call upon the Name of Jesus and speak it out, as I have heard this very thing from you, my brother, often.

So it is not rules being formed in us, it is Christ being formed. Now I do not pretend to understand the depths of the point...

How does that go? Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard... Thank you for the correction, I agree. It is Christ in us and I appreciate your voice added to the sound of song of the turtledove heard in our lands.

Here's yet another voice. It's commonly sung in Catholic services, but of course is for all to enjoy:
[video=youtube;rRyOS0nZr7s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRyOS0nZr7s[/video]

There are many voices in the choir of Praise that is lifted before him, even the voice of that rock known as Sparrow; I pray that we each learn to keep our hears open to ear! ;)

This is a very beautiful and innocent bird, and no one is mentioned more frequently in the Bible. It does not live upon the flesh of animals: so when Noah sent one out of the ark, she soon came back again, because she could find nothing to eat, and no rest for the sole of her foot. Noah put out his hand and gently took her in, and she did not go out again for a whole week. Then Noah let her fly, and the beautiful creature came back in the evening, having in her mouth a green leaf which she had plucked from an olive-tree; as though she wanted to tell him that the waters were beginning to dry up. After another week she went out, and did not come back again to the ark, because the earth was dry.

The dove was often offered as a sacrifice in ancient times; and was a type of our innocent Savior, to show how he would afterwards be put to death for the guilty. The Holy Spirit once condescended to take the form of a dove, when he rested upon Christ at the time of his baptism. Our Savior speaks of the innocence of this bird when he says to his disciples, "I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

This bird has a very sweet but mournful voice; and this is referred to in the Bible. Hezekiah, one of the Jewish kings, had been very sick and expected to die; but as he lay on his bed, he prayed that God would be pleased to spare his life. God heard his prayer, and promised that he should live fifteen years longer; and soon after he became quite well. He was grateful to God for his goodness, and wrote a beautiful song of praise to be sung in the temple. Among other things he told how he felt when he lay so sick upon his bed. He says, "Like a crane or a swallow, so did I chatter; I did mourn as a dove."

The turtle-dove is a bird of passage. It appears in Judea early in the spring, when the leaves are coming out, the flowers opening, and every thing looking lovely and beautiful. This will explain some verses in the Song of Solomon, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away, for lo ! the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle (or turtle-dove) is heard in our land." It remains until summer is gone; and then flies away to a warmer climate to spend the winter. It is in reference to this that David says, "Oh ! that I had wings like a dove ! for then would I flee away, and be at rest; lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness; I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest." You will find these beautiful verses in the 55th Psalm.

Who would not wish to be like the gentle, peaceful dove?

Read more at THE SCRIPTURE ALPHABET OF ANIMALS BY MRS. HARRIET N. COOK, who also quotes and states, "Every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains; and the wild beasts of the field are mine." - Psalms 50:10,11

 

[Mitspa]

what an interesting time in which we live? Hawk has a thought of Our God and can express it in a push of a button. Others may share and rejoice in the push of a button.

No doubt the Roman roads were built for man to control and rule other men, but God had them in mind for paths unto His Saints, that the gospel might spead to the known world.
Alexander the great seemed to be unstopable and spread his rule, unto great limits. But he was not a "great general" God declared the Words of His Son, would be made known to the world through the Greek language. This modern system of connected electronic networks, was built by man, for his glory. But God will use this thing to unite the believers.

 

[Ryan]

Seeing as nobody wanted to touch post #139 with a ten foot pole, I just came across this and interesting how when the entire body of scriptures is used together, it makes perfect sense. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh. (PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

From 119 Ministries

http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ...istments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf

 

[jasoncran]

so when a Christian dies and he sins he a cursed? in order to be forgiven then he must confess all his sins. no man will die without some sin in him.

 

[Mitspa]

Seeing as nobody wanted to touch post #139 with a ten foot pole, I just came across this and interesting how when the entire body of scriptures is used together, it makes perfect sense. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh. (PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

From 119 Ministries

http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ...istments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf

Well Paul just disagrees with all that and in clear terms.
The law is not of faith.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Those who seek to be justified by the law, are under its curse.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW! etc...
The ministry of death WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED ON STONES.
That no man is justified in the sight of God BY THE LAW, IS EVIDENT!

this means it is PLAIN AS DAY!