When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[jasoncran]

mitspa do you honestly believe that the ot saints didn't have faith? that they didn't know what grace was?

 

[Ryan]

Seeing as nobody wanted to touch post #139 with a ten foot pole, I just came across this and interesting how when the entire body of scriptures is used together, it makes perfect sense. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh. (PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

From 119 Ministries

http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ...istments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf

Well Paul just disagrees with all that and in clear terms.
The law is not of faith.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Those who seek to be justified by the law, are under its curse.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW! etc...
The ministry of death WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED ON STONES.
That no man is justified in the sight of God BY THE LAW, IS EVIDENT!

this means it is PLAIN AS DAY!

No your misinterpretation of Paul does not agree. Scripture is so much more fun when it interprets itself, instead of your theological mess that has people being told to be disobedient to God's Good Word.

 

[Mitspa]

Seeing as nobody wanted to touch post #139 with a ten foot pole, I just came across this and interesting how when the entire body of scriptures is used together, it makes perfect sense. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh. (PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

From 119 Ministries

http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ...istments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf

Well Paul just disagrees with all that and in clear terms.
The law is not of faith.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Those who seek to be justified by the law, are under its curse.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW! etc...
The ministry of death WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED ON STONES.
That no man is justified in the sight of God BY THE LAW, IS EVIDENT!

this means it is PLAIN AS DAY!

No your misinterpretation of Paul does not agree. Scripture is so much more fun when it interprets itself, instead of your theological mess that has people being told to be disobedient to God's Good Word.

Well I think it is evident! lol
I will stand with Paul, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law. But the righteousness of God which is through faith in Christ Jesus. FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
The law is not of faith.

 

[Ryan]

Seeing as nobody wanted to touch post #139 with a ten foot pole, I just came across this and interesting how when the entire body of scriptures is used together, it makes perfect sense. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh. (PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

From 119 Ministries

http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ...istments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf

Well Paul just disagrees with all that and in clear terms.
The law is not of faith.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Those who seek to be justified by the law, are under its curse.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW! etc...
The ministry of death WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED ON STONES.
That no man is justified in the sight of God BY THE LAW, IS EVIDENT!

this means it is PLAIN AS DAY!

No your misinterpretation of Paul does not agree. Scripture is so much more fun when it interprets itself, instead of your theological mess that has people being told to be disobedient to God's Good Word.

Well I think it is evident! lol
I will stand with Paul, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law. But the righteousness of God which is through faith in Christ Jesus. FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
The law is not of faith.

Paul did not have God saving faith until his conversion and being born again. After his transformation, he still agreed with the law and never told anyone to not live by the law if they were believers. Nobody. Paul's very own words that are still ignored.

However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, (Acts 24:14)

When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove. Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:7-8)

I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
(2 Timothy 1:3)

"The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4-5)

You harp we will all be judged by Paul's Gospel, which is true because he was in complete agreement with the law and the prophets.

 

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

 

[JLB]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

What is the conclusion to the matter at hand.

Based on the scriptures, in your opinion, when did the Law (Of Moses) pass way or not.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

The law is love.

Matthew 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [o]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Mitspa would have you believe that after you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, if you go and celebrate Passover as instructed in Exodus, you are now cursed and would lose your salvation. So because me and my family adhered to Passover this week in the best way we could, we are now cursed. The Law is a call to live out your faith because you are saved. Mitspa believes because Jesus obeyed for us, we are no longer bound to obey because Jesus obeyed for us.

So does it make sense because of me observing Passover this week, and teaching my children the deeper meaning of Passover, which is Jesus Christ, I am now cursed? Mitspa would have you believe that is the case.

 

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

What is the conclusion to the matter at hand.

Based on the scriptures, in your opinion, when did the Law (Of Moses) pass way or not.


JLB

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelations 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelations 12:5-11.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

 

[Mitspa]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

I agree in part but "semantics" is what is going on! For this issue is THE ISSUE of the scripture? Since Cain offered to God what God had cursed. And able offered by faith the Lamb.
See one who judges another by a standard they do not keep themselves, is not walking in love. The Holy Spirit uses this very point to challenge the thought and intentions of the heart of those who seek the written code.
Love others as yourself is NEVER FULFILLED by those who teach and preach law. They do not keep the standard but yet they judge others by a standard they do not keep.
The issues of truth in the heart, often seem like "semantics" but it is through the truth in the inward parts that God is known and the Divine Nature is walked in.

 

[Sparkey]

I've been involved in a cyclical discussion that happens here as predictably as clockwork every Spring. This time the discussion is called "The Week of Passion" but there have been many, many conversations about it throughout the centuries. Her's is a quote that was found on another board that may be of some interest to this thread. It was found on the StudyBible Q&A forum and made in what reads as a helpful manner concerning questions raised about Passover discussed on Exodus and Leviticus. I am not trying to derail this subject even in the slightest and give this quote only as it relates to the "passing of the law". There is more here than meets the eye.

Here is an analogy from the perspective of our calendar day system. One may say that our chronological day goes from midnight to midnight. We understand that this doesn't mean the day begins at midnight, and that it also ends at midnight. Rather, we know there is only one midnight per calendar day. So in all actuality, we know that the day begins at midnight, and that it ends at 11:59:59 pm., one complete day.


So, if Americans in our calendar day system were instructed to eat unleavened bread for seven days, the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, and the 21st, then one could instruct their family to start eating unleavened bread, no sooner than, on the 14th day at (11:59:59 pm). This principle is somewhat similar, but not exactly, to the lesson learned in (Leviticus 23:32).


The seven days from the perspective of the letter of the law (including the spirit and intent) would start on the 14th day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), and end on the 21st day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), resulting in a complete (7 days and 1 sec.) that unleavened bread could have been eaten. In all practicality, this is an equivalent period of time to seven days, however, technically it is one second longer. (Exodus 12:18)


The seven days from the perspective of the letter of the law only, (devoid of the spirit and intent), would start from the beginning of the 15th day at midnight [12:00:00 am.], and end on the 21st day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), resulting in a complete (7 days) that unleavened bread could have been eaten. (Leviticus 23:6)


Since God's Word is very precise, when the spirit of the law (intent) is included within the perspective, then that one second difference becomes very significant. Technically, this allowed unleavened bread to be eaten starting the evening (dusk) before the appointed time of the paschal sacrifice, albeit, by one second. This was impractical and insignificant in reality whenever the spirit of the law was included with the letter of the law. However, this became very practical and significant when the spirit of the law was separated from the letter of the law. From my understanding, this separation of the spirit from the letter of the law occurred at the beginning of the appointed time of the paschal sacrifice during Holy Week, when Jesus gave up His spirit, shortly after God's Prophetic Word in (Amos 8:7-10) began to be fulfilled at noon on the fourteenth day. (John 19:30) (John 1:14)


In conclusion, from my understanding,


The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread with the spirit (intent) of the law included, always began on the evening (dusk) of the fourteenth day before the appointed time (beyn ha arbayim - God's Perspective).


The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread by the letter of the law (devoid of the spirit and intent) always began on the evening (dusk) of the fifteenth day.



In Christ's Service,
Sola Gloria Dei!

answered Nov 16, 2012 by JesusIsLord (140 points)
edited Nov 17, 2012 by Donald

I would go on to point out that "Pentecost (Ancient Greek: Πεντηκοστή [ἡμέρα], Pentēkostē [hēmera], "the Fiftieth [day]") is the Greek name for the Feast of Weeks, a prominent feast in the calendar of ancient Israel celebrating the giving of the Law on Sinai. This feast is still celebrated as Shavuot." (quoted from Wiki) The seven (7) Sabbath countdown (49 days) is started at the Wave Offering in the Springtime. More about the "Count of the Omer" from the library of the folks at Chabad.org As far as the "more than meets the eye" part, we may wish to consider the Word of God about the "former" and "later" rains. These prophetic statements are included in the yearly festivals as well as the entire ministry of the Holy Spirit who is our "rain".


This Shavuot celebrates the giving of the law and is the same day that Jesus told his disciples to wait for after his resurrection and just before his ascension. Peter spoke about this "Promise of the Father" in relation to the Prophecy of Joel that we are familiar with. When did that "law" that was given pass away? Was it at the time that the stone tablet was broken by Moses? Did we see it pass away as Jesus surrendered and fulfilled the Law while being baptized by John who protested? Did it happen in part in those whose hearts burned within them as they listened to the words that were uttered by The Christ? Was it during the Feast of the Passover that celebrated in the last of the 3½ year ministry of our Lord, Jesus, as he gave up his Spirit unto God? Was it when the Lord was raised, three days and three nights after? Did it happen in part as Jonah was corrected in the belly of the Great Fish that bespoke of these times? Or did it pass away when the disciples were given the "Promise". Perhaps this very law is still passing away even today as we continue to follow in the footsteps of our Lord and His disciples.

Does this happen at Baptism, or does it take some time for it to fully pass away? Is it a legal passing or is it more intimate? So many questions, right? I do believe that the Spirit of the Law is written and being written and that the Promise of the Father is given according to Acts 2:38,39 to even as many as the Lord shall call.

 

[About the Son of God]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

What is the conclusion to the matter at hand.

Based on the scriptures, in your opinion, when did the Law (Of Moses) pass way or not.


JLB

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelation 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelation 12:5-11.

(I edited quote for proper bible links.)

I haven't been trying to leave you out.... I'm sorry I didn't make you feel more welcome; but there are so many thoughts, I am often delayed in answering.

I'm actually in full agreement with you in what you have just said; although the nature of the trap, and the cause of it's permanence are things to be probed from history and scripture...

The trap: 1Corinthians 2:7-8 , John 16:11-12,
Now: Consider why they knew him not -- and what the prophets meant by:
"As a sheep led to slaughter he opened not his mouth" -- but also scripture says (Paul *sigh*) Hebrews 5:7

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Yes... but that's an all or nothing position which (as a statistic of my experience with others) almost exclusively comes from reading Romans uncritically.

Paul's writings provably uses "law" to mean different things in different places; Strictly speaking, Genesis is TORAH (law), and yet Paul in one place -- excluded the doings of Abraham from "law".

Romans 4:13-14

But at the same time, Paul includes those doings as law.

Romans 3:31 "we establish the law".

So, there is a false dichotomy being used by many who argue the point as "law" or "no law", lumping all laws into the same category without any clarification whatsoever.

Go to Ephesians 2:15-16, and find an example that Paul indeed notices that there are commandments not written as a dry list of ordinances; eg: It is in Genesis that we find this law "The two shall become one flesh".
And also, Paul will sometimes qualify his statements such as "the law of her husband" rather than just "the law"
Romans 7:2

So, it's clear that Paul believes some laws are forever binding... and specifically: the possibility of salvation is based on a law which allows us to go free, but only under a specific condition. *death*.
For, it could be decreed that one is not allowed to remarry, even after a husband dies -- therefore Paul's argument rests on a particular version/interpretation of the law. ( not Matthew 22:30 )

Furthermore:
Paul uses laws to judge his churches, and repeatedly he appeals to non-stauatory law which existing prior to the Sainai covenant. The older the law, the more strongly Paul uses it.

That's why it's important to notice that each covenant records a distinct set of laws:
From Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to Moses; Moses to Jesus.

Some of the laws from a previous covenant belong to the next, some do not ; but the earlier ones can still be valid, when the later ones are struck down. That's why Paul quite clearly tells us that the understanding of our newfound freedom, and law, requires hidden wisdom ;

1Corinthians 2:7 "but WE speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom...

Consider how Jesus taught us to speak: The prophets said "I will open my mouth in parables, in dark sayings from of old."
Matthew 13:35

Parables are "law" stated indirectly by providing a case history... Exactly as Genesis does with marriage of Adam.

Marriage law is inscribed in our very physical being, Woman is made from Man or else the purposes of the union (helpmate, children, fruitful, multiply) are (as a whole) made void. [ The argument has subtleties, but that's the nature of "dark" sayings. ]

Judge for yourself what is right and wrong ( Each of us has a conscience )
and
Judge not; for whatever you use to judge with, it will be applied to you by God ( Hypocrisy is not acceptable )


In an earlier post to me, you mentioned as people often do that I have "knowledge"; But of the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Wisdom, understanding, advising, knowledge.... Knowledge is pretty low on the list.
Yet to have any of the gifts above knowledge, we first must have knowledge.

 

[Ryan]

I've been involved in a cyclical discussion that happens here as predictably as clockwork every Spring. This time the discussion is called "The Week of Passion" but there have been many, many conversations about it throughout the centuries. Her's is a quote that was found on another board that may be of some interest to this thread. It was found on the StudyBible Q&A forum and made in what reads as a helpful manner concerning questions raised about Passover discussed on Exodus and Leviticus. I am not trying to derail this subject even in the slightest and give this quote only as it relates to the "passing of the law". There is more here than meets the eye.

Here is an analogy from the perspective of our calendar day system. One may say that our chronological day goes from midnight to midnight. We understand that this doesn't mean the day begins at midnight, and that it also ends at midnight. Rather, we know there is only one midnight per calendar day. So in all actuality, we know that the day begins at midnight, and that it ends at 11:59:59 pm., one complete day.


So, if Americans in our calendar day system were instructed to eat unleavened bread for seven days, the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, and the 21st, then one could instruct their family to start eating unleavened bread, no sooner than, on the 14th day at (11:59:59 pm). This principle is somewhat similar, but not exactly, to the lesson learned in (Leviticus 23:32).


The seven days from the perspective of the letter of the law (including the spirit and intent) would start on the 14th day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), and end on the 21st day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), resulting in a complete (7 days and 1 sec.) that unleavened bread could have been eaten. In all practicality, this is an equivalent period of time to seven days, however, technically it is one second longer. (Exodus 12:18)


The seven days from the perspective of the letter of the law only, (devoid of the spirit and intent), would start from the beginning of the 15th day at midnight [12:00:00 am.], and end on the 21st day at the end of the day at (11:59:59 pm.), resulting in a complete (7 days) that unleavened bread could have been eaten. (Leviticus 23:6)


Since God's Word is very precise, when the spirit of the law (intent) is included within the perspective, then that one second difference becomes very significant. Technically, this allowed unleavened bread to be eaten starting the evening (dusk) before the appointed time of the paschal sacrifice, albeit, by one second. This was impractical and insignificant in reality whenever the spirit of the law was included with the letter of the law. However, this became very practical and significant when the spirit of the law was separated from the letter of the law. From my understanding, this separation of the spirit from the letter of the law occurred at the beginning of the appointed time of the paschal sacrifice during Holy Week, when Jesus gave up His spirit, shortly after God's Prophetic Word in (Amos 8:7-10) began to be fulfilled at noon on the fourteenth day. (John 19:30) (John 1:14)


In conclusion, from my understanding,


The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread with the spirit (intent) of the law included, always began on the evening (dusk) of the fourteenth day before the appointed time (beyn ha arbayim - God's Perspective).


The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread by the letter of the law (devoid of the spirit and intent) always began on the evening (dusk) of the fifteenth day.



In Christ's Service,
Sola Gloria Dei!

answered Nov 16, 2012 by JesusIsLord (140 points)
edited Nov 17, 2012 by Donald

I would go on to point out that "Pentecost (Ancient Greek: Πεντηκοστή [ἡμέρα], Pentēkostē [hēmera], "the Fiftieth [day]") is the Greek name for the Feast of Weeks, a prominent feast in the calendar of ancient Israel celebrating the giving of the Law on Sinai. This feast is still celebrated as Shavuot." (quoted from Wiki) The seven (7) Sabbath countdown (49 days) is started at the Wave Offering in the Springtime. More about the "Count of the Omer" from the library of the folks at Chabad.org As far as the "more than meets the eye" part, we may wish to consider the Word of God about the "former" and "later" rains. These prophetic statements are included in the yearly festivals as well as the entire ministry of the Holy Spirit who is our "rain".


This Shavuot celebrates the giving of the law and is the same day that Jesus told his disciples to wait for after his resurrection and just before his ascension. Peter spoke about this "Promise of the Father" in relation to the Prophecy of Joel that we are familiar with. When did that "law" that was given pass away? Was it at the time that the stone tablet was broken by Moses? Did we see it pass away as Jesus surrendered and fulfilled the Law while being baptized by John who protested? Did it happen in part in those whose hearts burned within them as they listened to the words that were uttered by The Christ? Was it during the Feast of the Passover that celebrated in the last of the 3½ year ministry of our Lord, Jesus, as he gave up his Spirit unto God? Was it when the Lord was raised, three days and three nights after? Did it happen in part as Jonah was corrected in the belly of the Great Fish that bespoke of these times? Or did it pass away when the disciples were given the "Promise". Perhaps this very law is still passing away even today as we continue to follow in the footsteps of our Lord and His disciples.

Does this happen at Baptism, or does it take some time for it to fully pass away? Is it a legal passing or is it more intimate? So many questions, right? I do believe that the Spirit of the Law is written and being written and that the Promise of the Father is given according to Acts 2:38,39 to even as many as the Lord shall call.

A thought Sparrow, God was so precise in giving the commandments about the time of the Feasts, when a Sabbath began, the timing of his death and resurrection perfectly coincided with the week of Passover, etc, etc. if God was so precise to the second of fulfilling everything, why has there been no definitive timetable for something as significant as the Sinai Covenant to of passed away? Why are we spending countless minutes of our days arguing these things? God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Mitspa]

1 Cor 1:18-24

 

[About the Son of God]

lovely a debate on women speaking and or teaching in church..

the orthodox jews don't allow women to learn about the torah as much as men do.that and they sit on opposite sides.

Well, Jason, my grammar ignoring friend....
I read your posts and the varying style of clear vs. sometimes non-extant grammar; and I wonder, do you share your login with your wife? (Is that Avatar, her?)
When you say "I as a Jew" in some posts, but then I notice your profile says "christian=yes" -- I get a bit confused.... Not that you have to explain, but I'm just curious what it all means.... (42).

I've walked by "TEMPLE BETH ISRAEL" in Portland, Oregon, a few times; but never had the guts to go in -- being a Gentile, Christian, and all... and you've piqued my curiosity.

After reading about the Noachide laws, of which four are explicit in scripture -- but there are seven according to extra-biblical Hebrew writers, ( who clearly appropriated the rights to interpretation since it was not given to just them!! eg: Ham, and Japheth );

After reading those Noachide laws, I have the strange feeling I might be expected to obey a bunch of rules that I have no clue about if I go in the temple....

But I've often wondered about the synagog/temple organization, and the justification for it, and the history.

In our times, people are just beginning to (re?)discover that all women's schools inevitably turn out women who are more professionally successful than women trained in a co-ed campus; and it doesn't have to do with equality -- but with the fact that the sexes learn differently; and each learns better from their own.
A man placed in an all women's school has a hard time keeping his mind on the books. !!!!!

But, the basis of the rule that women are not speak in the "assembly" (Whether teaching, or prophesying, or ... ) of which Paul writes 1Timothy 2:11-14 and 1Corinthians 14:34-35 ; I infer that but I infer, the rule Paul makes comes in part from Genesis 3:16-17

Genes 3:16 ... προς τον ανδρα σου η αποστροφη σου και αυτος σου κυριευσει
... toward the man of-you the apo-strophe of-you, and he of-you, LORD!

The word, apo-strophe, is transliterated from the Greek, and it's valid though obscure in English; We're more familiar with a cata-strophe meaning to turn things upside down, and practically rototill them into confusion....

But an apostrophe is more of a reference point or mark, it's the home position of repetitious journey, or (in speech) it's the thing "assumed" and not explicitly written. (is n'''''t); so an apostrophe is contrary to confusion.

Originally the word comes from Greek poetry, temple worship, and theater.

In theater, an 'apostrophe' is when the play's action is momentarily suspended so that an actor can "turn away" from the action -- in order to speak to someone who's not "in" the play; typically God or the audience...

There's a cycle, or rhythm of actors lines, or "strophes", that an "apostrohe" interrupts.
(Think of a strophe as a phrase, a periocope, or a verse of scripture. )

Sometimes, I have seen groups of men recite the psalms -- where one group will recite a single strophe, and then the other group will reply with the next strophe.
And it's a bit like watching a row boat with alternating oar directions that have a cadence,
Strophe -- Strophe -- Strophe -- Strophe ....

When I watch the psalms chanted, it's like the assembly rows it's way progressively through the psalm.

Or, I could use another example:
In Music, a single singer does all the strophes, but then the assembly joins in when there is an apostrophe ( which we normally call the "refrain" in music ).
The journey is halted, in order to recall the theme of the song, the basic meaning that *everyone* shares in.

Is there any interaction (strophe/apostrophe) in a temple having "one" side men, the "other" side women eg: in the Orthodox places?

For, there are multiple ways to read Genesis 3:16;

Paul seems to be saying that the husband is the wife's reference point for law. She is supposed to turn aside from the action of life (and I mean a CYCLIC action of life), and communicate with him, and he is to judge. (hopefully better than Adam who was given the statute before ever eve was created.)

How do you see the law of the wife to speak to her husband? (ignoring single women.) Matthew 19:10

 

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

The law is love.

Matthew 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [o]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”


Mitspa would have you believe that after you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, if you go and celebrate Passover as instructed in Exodus, you are now cursed and would lose your salvation. So because me and my family adhered to Passover this week in the best way we could, we are now cursed. The Law is a call to live out your faith because you are saved. Mitspa believes because Jesus obeyed for us, we are no longer bound to obey because Jesus obeyed for us.

So does it make sense because of me observing Passover this week, and teaching my children the deeper meaning of Passover, which is Jesus Christ, I am now cursed? Mitspa would have you believe that is the case.

Firts of all, thanks for the response. Second, I don't see Mitspa saying what you claim he is saying. That is why I have said , that this is a futile excercise in semantics. Things are misunderstood, misrepresented, misspoken. One person hears other than what another person intended. It is like two people approaching the same Truth from opposite directions arguing over which way is true left and which is true right.

I've read Mitspa's post#336 wherein he says that the Christ is what is forming in our hearts and not the law. I agree with this. From the other side I see Sparrowhawke describing the law being written in our hearts, which is alluding to the same thing, so I agree again. Yet elsewhere sparrowhawke has rightly said that there are no unclean words given to us except for the Name of Jesus. Again I agree and Mitspa concurs. Now you teach the deeper meaning of Passover to your children at an appointed time of remembrance. I see nothing wrong with this. Again I believe it is the same thing being approached in a different way. Does that mean I am wrong if I celebrate Passover everyday and every moment? No it does not, because I am seeking to eat unleavened bread all the time. Christ is the fulfillment of the law. Christ is the law. Christ is greater than the law. All of these say one thing that everyone is looking at, from different distances, different directions, all unique, and perfectly right according to the pure of heart, the cross of the Christ Jesus. And the rest of our words because of their inadequacy to describe what we see, are unclean and always left wanting.

 

[Sparkey]

Why are we spending countless minutes of our days arguing these things? God is not the author of confusion.

I'm not sure why I enjoy research or listening to varied opinions so much. I do have my own opinions and perhaps my realization comes on the out-stroke? Not all externalize their synthesis, not all internalize the analysis. Even the statistically smaller number of those who do, don't do this all the time. I can't speak for others. I don't think one way is better than another. I may wish to speak to you more on this matter. May I ask if you speak Hebrew? Never-mind, I'll ask in a PM.

 

[JLB]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

What is the conclusion to the matter at hand.

Based on the scriptures, in your opinion, when did the Law (Of Moses) pass way or not.


JLB

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelations 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelations 12:5-11.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Thanks for your answer. I can appreciate the idea you convey by saying - So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

I make this point myself when referring to the phrase - The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

I will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, that is those who study and know the scriptures and have Gods Spirit.

It will come as a thief in the night for the world.

However, in this case we have some distinctly phrased scripture that states that the Law was temporary, that is the law of Moses. The Law of God is different in that it is Eternal.

Case in point:

as you quoted - Galatians 3:19

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

This clearly says, it, The Law of Moses, was added until the Seed should come...

To me that means: The law of Moses was a part of The Covenant and would remain until it was taken out of the way and replaced by the New [fresh] Covenant.

Fresh, not different. The new quality it has is Blood of Jesus and His New Nature empowered by The Holy Spirit and His Gifts.

We as Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Covenant that The Lord Jesus made with Abraham, not the Covenant at Sinai.
16 For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:16-17

and again -


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Notice how this idea is expressed by the writer of the book of Hebrews -

Then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By saying "takes away", the Holy Spirit is indicating the removal of "first", not a co-existence, but a removal of that which has been added, in order to establish the second "in its place".

again he says -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Please consider these scriptures.

Thanks JLB

 

[childeye]

(I edited quote for proper bible
links.)

I haven't been trying to leave you out.... I'm sorry I didn't
make you feel more welcome; but there are so many thoughts, I am often delayed
in answering.

I know you do not intend to exclude me. Please count my self-pity as a diabolical means of manipulating the love of my brethren so as to get some attention.

I'm actually in full agreement with you in what you have just said; although
the nature of the trap, and the cause of it's permanence are things to be probed
from history and scripture...

The trap: 1Corinthians 2:7-8 , John
16:11-12,
Now: Consider why they knew him not -- and what the prophets
meant by:
"As a sheep led to slaughter he opened not his mouth" -- but also
scripture says (Paul *sigh*) Hebrews 5:7

Great scriptures referances and a very appropriate comment on he opened not his mouth. It also brings to mind, what is Luke 12:3.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those
who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth.
However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So
it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Yes... but that's an
all or nothing position which (as a statistic of my experience with others)
almost exclusively comes from reading Romans uncritically.

Yes, I can see why you say that. I guess it is an all or nothing proposition when looking at the bottom line so as to try and eliminate semantics. But therefore I am speaking from a view in circumference of truth wherein I behold the objective and subjective together at once. Here is another all or nothing position. The law was meant to serve men and not men meant to serve the law. Love transcends law for Love writes law. When pressed, I must say what points to God Who is Love, and for Whom all things exist to serve including the law and men.

So, there is a false dichotomy being used by many who
argue the point as

"law" or "no law", lumping all laws into the same category
without any

clarification whatsoever.

I confess I do this. But to be honest I see no other recourse. This is the highest law I know. Love God with all your heart mind and soul. It does not include patronizing as legitimate. Only revelation can fulfill this commandment. Granted that this commandment is most likely an ongoing perpetual progression or even perhaps needs periodic refreshing. But it is not the law we serve. It is God Whom the law serves. Therefore He would not want us to keep this commandment because we were told to do so.

Go to Ephesians 2:15-16, and find
an
example that Paul indeed notices
that there are commandments not written as a

dry list of ordinances;
eg: It is in Genesis that we find this
law "The two
shall
become one flesh".
And also, Paul will
sometimes qualify his

statements such as "the law of her husband" rather
than just "the
law"
Romans 7:2




So, it's clear that Paul believes some laws are forever binding...
and specifically: the possibility of salvation is based on a law which allows us
to go free, but only under a specific condition. *death*.
For, it could be
decreed that one is not allowed to remarry, even after a husband dies --
therefore Paul's argument rests on a particular version/interpretation of the
law. ( not Matthew 22:30 )

Furthermore:
Paul uses laws to judge his
churches, and repeatedly he appeals to non-stauatory law which existing
prior to the Sainai covenant. The older the law, the more strongly Paul
uses it.

That's why it's important to notice that each covenant records a
distinct set of laws:
From Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to
Moses; Moses to Jesus.

Some of the laws from a previous covenant belong
to the next, some do not ; but the earlier ones can still be valid, when the
later ones are struck down. That's why Paul quite clearly tells us that the
understanding of our newfound freedom, and law, requires hidden wisdom ;


1Corinthians 2:7 "but WE speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
even the hidden wisdom...

Consider how Jesus taught us to speak:
The prophets said "I will open my mouth in parables, in dark sayings from of
old."
Matthew 13:35

Parables are "law" stated indirectly by
providing a case history... Exactly as Genesis does with marriage of
Adam.

Marriage law is inscribed in our very physical being, Woman is made
from Man or else the purposes of the union (helpmate, children, fruitful,
multiply) are (as a whole) made void. [ The argument has subtleties, but that's
the nature of "dark" sayings. ]

Judge for yourself what is right and
wrong ( Each of us has a conscience )
and
Judge not;
for whatever you use to judge with, it will be applied to
you by God ( Hypocrisy is not acceptable )


In an earlier post to me,
you mentioned as people often do that I have "knowledge"; But of the seven
Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Wisdom, understanding, advising, knowledge....
Knowledge is pretty low on the list.
Yet to have any of the gifts above
knowledge, we first must have knowledge.

A mind spinning post. It's a wonder you don't blow a gasket. Your definition of law is almost all inclusive with numerous classifications, reason of order and or timing and purpose. I don't pretend to know a lot about what you obviously have spent some time studying. But I think I follow what you are saying. It sounds like you get great joy from delving into the depths of the texts that are inspired and decoding the treasures therein that God has given to find. I particularly like what you say about the marriage vow being inscribed in our very being. Man is a piece of God, like woman is a piece of Adam, but of course this happened before there was ever any law according to my knowledge of the term. I enjoy reading what you write because you enjoy writing what you write.

 

[jasoncran]

lovely a debate on women speaking and or teaching in church..

the orthodox jews don't allow women to learn about the torah as much as men do.that and they sit on opposite sides.

Well, Jason, my grammar ignoring friend....
I read your posts and the varying style of clear vs. sometimes non-extant grammar; and I wonder, do you share your login with your wife? (Is that Avatar, her?)
When you say "I as a Jew" in some posts, but then I notice your profile says "christian=yes" -- I get a bit confused.... Not that you have to explain, but I'm just curious what it all means.... (42).

I've walked by "TEMPLE BETH ISRAEL" in Portland, Oregon, a few times; but never had the guts to go in -- being a Gentile, Christian, and all... and you've piqued my curiosity.

After reading about the Noachide laws, of which four are explicit in scripture -- but there are seven according to extra-biblical Hebrew writers, ( who clearly appropriated the rights to interpretation since it was not given to just them!! eg: Ham, and Japheth );

After reading those Noachide laws, I have the strange feeling I might be expected to obey a bunch of rules that I have no clue about if I go in the temple....

But I've often wondered about the synagog/temple organization, and the justification for it, and the history.

In our times, people are just beginning to (re?)discover that all women's schools inevitably turn out women who are more professionally successful than women trained in a co-ed campus; and it doesn't have to do with equality -- but with the fact that the sexes learn differently; and each learns better from their own.
A man placed in an all women's school has a hard time keeping his mind on the books. !!!!!

But, the basis of the rule that women are not speak in the "assembly" (Whether teaching, or prophesying, or ... ) of which Paul writes 1Timothy 2:11-14 and 1Corinthians 14:34-35 ; I infer that but I infer, the rule Paul makes comes in part from Genesis 3:16-17

Genes 3:16 ... προς τον ανδρα σου η αποστροφη σου και αυτος σου κυριευσει
... toward the man of-you the apo-strophe of-you, and he of-you, LORD!

The word, apo-strophe, is transliterated from the Greek, and it's valid though obscure in English; We're more familiar with a cata-strophe meaning to turn things upside down, and practically rototill them into confusion....

But an apostrophe is more of a reference point or mark, it's the home position of repetitious journey, or (in speech) it's the thing "assumed" and not explicitly written. (is n'''''t); so an apostrophe is contrary to confusion.

Originally the word comes from Greek poetry, temple worship, and theater.

In theater, an 'apostrophe' is when the play's action is momentarily suspended so that an actor can "turn away" from the action -- in order to speak to someone who's not "in" the play; typically God or the audience...

There's a cycle, or rhythm of actors lines, or "strophes", that an "apostrohe" interrupts.
(Think of a strophe as a phrase, a periocope, or a verse of scripture. )

Sometimes, I have seen groups of men recite the psalms -- where one group will recite a single strophe, and then the other group will reply with the next strophe.
And it's a bit like watching a row boat with alternating oar directions that have a cadence,
Strophe -- Strophe -- Strophe -- Strophe ....

When I watch the psalms chanted, it's like the assembly rows it's way progressively through the psalm.

Or, I could use another example:
In Music, a single singer does all the strophes, but then the assembly joins in when there is an apostrophe ( which we normally call the "refrain" in music ).
The journey is halted, in order to recall the theme of the song, the basic meaning that *everyone* shares in.

Is there any interaction (strophe/apostrophe) in a temple having "one" side men, the "other" side women eg: in the Orthodox places?

For, there are multiple ways to read Genesis 3:16;

Paul seems to be saying that the husband is the wife's reference point for law. She is supposed to turn aside from the action of life (and I mean a CYCLIC action of life), and communicate with him, and he is to judge. (hopefully better than Adam who was given the statute before ever eve was created.)

How do you see the law of the wife to speak to her husband? (ignoring single women.) Matthew 19:10

ah, that sounds like what I mentioned. women sang in the temple. well its context. in orthodoxy a women couldn't even know the tanach as well as men. as she might teach it. yet what did jesus have women do? witness, and pray and also well it says teach the children at home.im unsure how jews did it in the temple. I would have to ask my dad on that. all cranmans are consertive jews..

 

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

What is the conclusion to the matter at hand.

Based on the scriptures, in your opinion, when did the Law (Of Moses) pass way or not.


JLB

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelations 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelations 12:5-11.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Thanks for your answer. I can appreciate the idea you convey by saying - So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

I make this point myself when referring to the phrase - The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

I will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, that is those who study and know the scriptures and have Gods Spirit.

It will come as a thief in the night for the world.

However, in this case we have some distinctly phrased scripture that states that the Law was temporary, that is the law of Moses. The Law of God is different in that it is Eternal.

Case in point:

as you quoted - Galatians 3:19

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

This clearly says, it, The Law of Moses, was added until the Seed should come...

To me that means: The law of Moses was a part of The Covenant and would remain until it was taken out of the way and replaced by the New [fresh] Covenant.

Fresh, not different. The new quality it has is Blood of Jesus and His New Nature empowered by The Holy Spirit and His Gifts.

We as Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Covenant that The Lord Jesus made with Abraham, not the Covenant at Sinai.
16 For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:16-17

and again -


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Notice how this idea is expressed by the writer of the book of Hebrews -

Then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By saying "takes away", the Holy Spirit is indicating the removal of "first", not a co-existence, but a removal of that which has been added, in order to establish the second "in its place".

again he says -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Please consider these scriptures.

Thanks JLB

A well thought out post. I cannot see any place that I would disagree. One thing is for certain. Since we are in Christ because of a promise made to Abraham, there is nothing we have done that was not God's doing.