When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

I agree in part but "semantics" is what is going on! For this issue is THE ISSUE of the scripture? Since Cain offered to God what God had cursed. And able offered by faith the Lamb.
See one who judges another by a standard they do not keep themselves, is not walking in love. The Holy Spirit uses this very point to challenge the thought and intentions of the heart of those who seek the written code.
Love others as yourself is NEVER FULFILLED by those who teach and preach law. They do not keep the standard but yet they judge others by a standard they do not keep.
The issues of truth in the heart, often seem like "semantics" but it is through the truth in the inward parts that God is known and the Divine Nature is walked in.

I understand what you say Mitspa. The semantics are unavoidable and as I have said before, your zeal is real. I do not mean to imply that you are wasting your time, nor anyone else here is wasting theirs. I am simply trying to point out the barriers that exist in the human language that prevent people from understanding one another. I'm just saying.

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelations 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelations 12:5-11.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Thanks for your answer. I can appreciate the idea you convey by saying - So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

I make this point myself when referring to the phrase - The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

I will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, that is those who study and know the scriptures and have Gods Spirit.

It will come as a thief in the night for the world.

However, in this case we have some distinctly phrased scripture that states that the Law was temporary, that is the law of Moses. The Law of God is different in that it is Eternal.

Case in point:

as you quoted - Galatians 3:19

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

This clearly says, it, The Law of Moses, was added until the Seed should come...

To me that means: The law of Moses was a part of The Covenant and would remain until it was taken out of the way and replaced by the New [fresh] Covenant.

Fresh, not different. The new quality it has is Blood of Jesus and His New Nature empowered by The Holy Spirit and His Gifts.

We as Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Covenant that The Lord Jesus made with Abraham, not the Covenant at Sinai.
16 For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:16-17

and again -


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Notice how this idea is expressed by the writer of the book of Hebrews -

Then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By saying "takes away", the Holy Spirit is indicating the removal of "first", not a co-existence, but a removal of that which has been added, in order to establish the second "in its place".

again he says -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Please consider these scriptures.

Thanks JLB

A well thought out post. I cannot see any place that I would disagree. One thing is for certain. Since we are in Christ because of a promise made to Abraham, there is nothing we have done that was not God's doing.

Welcome to the word of grace, childeye!
Now you must suffer at the hands of your brethren.
Gal 4:29

 

[jasoncran]

ok, if one never really knew what love is.then how would one know how to love?if you don't think that is possible

http://www.covenanthouse.org/about-homeless-charity

that deals with kids who has parents that will have them sell drugs for them and don't care if they die.

 

[Mitspa]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

I agree in part but "semantics" is what is going on! For this issue is THE ISSUE of the scripture? Since Cain offered to God what God had cursed. And able offered by faith the Lamb.
See one who judges another by a standard they do not keep themselves, is not walking in love. The Holy Spirit uses this very point to challenge the thought and intentions of the heart of those who seek the written code.
Love others as yourself is NEVER FULFILLED by those who teach and preach law. They do not keep the standard but yet they judge others by a standard they do not keep.
The issues of truth in the heart, often seem like "semantics" but it is through the truth in the inward parts that God is known and the Divine Nature is walked in.

I understand what you say Mitspa. The semantics are unavoidable and as I have said before, your zeal is real. I do not mean to imply that you are wasting your time, nor anyone else here is wasting theirs. I am simply trying to point out the barriers that exist in the human language that prevent people from understanding one another. I'm just saying.

Well I understand your thought that this issue is not as important as some of us make it, but one should see that this very issue of Gods promise and mans efforts are at the very core of all the scriptures. Many of the wars that have been fought in world history and even in modern history are over this very issue. The Reformation itself was started when Luther read and believed that a man is justified by faith alone in Christ.
Paul spends most of the New Testament explaining this issue, it is at the heart of all understanding of New Testament truth.

So I do understand how it can all get confused, do we do good because we are good or because God is good? Does God accept our efforts to do good? The answer is no His does not, and only that which comes from Him and He works through us is accepted before Him.
1 Cor 4:7

 

[childeye]

ok, if one never really knew what love is.then how would one know how to love?if you don't think that is possible

http://www.covenanthouse.org/about-homeless-charity

that deals with kids who has parents that will have them sell drugs for them and don't care if they die.

Maybe people don't know Love who havn't grown up with love. But I seem to think, that there is always something telling them they are missing love. What would you call that?

 

[jasoncran]

that comes from where? the torah? why do you think paul quoted the torah? and used it tell the churches?

 

[childeye]

Th way I see it, you all are discussing the difference between Love and the Law. There is no law without Love and there is no law without sin is a futile excercise in semantics.

I agree in part but "semantics" is what is going on! For this issue is THE ISSUE of the scripture? Since Cain offered to God what God had cursed. And able offered by faith the Lamb.
See one who judges another by a standard they do not keep themselves, is not walking in love. The Holy Spirit uses this very point to challenge the thought and intentions of the heart of those who seek the written code.
Love others as yourself is NEVER FULFILLED by those who teach and preach law. They do not keep the standard but yet they judge others by a standard they do not keep.
The issues of truth in the heart, often seem like "semantics" but it is through the truth in the inward parts that God is known and the Divine Nature is walked in.

I understand what you say Mitspa. The semantics are unavoidable and as I have said before, your zeal is real. I do not mean to imply that you are wasting your time, nor anyone else here is wasting theirs. I am simply trying to point out the barriers that exist in the human language that prevent people from understanding one another. I'm just saying.

Well I understand your thought that this issue is not as important as some of us make it, but one should see that this very issue of Gods promise and mans efforts are at the very core of all the scriptures. Many of the wars that have been fought in world history and even in modern history are over this very issue. The Reformation itself was started when Luther read and believed that a man is justified by faith alone in Christ.
Paul spends most of the New Testament explaining this issue, it is at the heart of all understanding of New Testament truth.

So I do understand how it can all get confused, do we do good because we are good or because God is good? Does God accept our efforts to do good? The answer is no His does not, and only that which comes from Him and He works through us is accepted before Him.
1 Cor 4:7

I don't know what I have said that would give you the impression that I think this issue is trivial. I think it is a major pillar which supports a vast host of lies. I only wish to guard myself lest I become a crucifier when I thought I was being crucified. Note: If I think I would not have fallen into the same vanity of Satan without Satan, then is this not the vanity of Satan? Do you know what I mean by this?

 

[childeye]

that comes from where? the torah? why do you think paul quoted the torah? and used it tell the churches?

Jasoncran. Do you think you're talking to someone who knows the Torah? I feel that somehow I must be missing your point. This is what I hear you saying: The Torah makes people know they are missing Love. Is that what you are saying? Actually that makes sense to me.

 

[jasoncran]

actually it teaches.why is the fourth commandment listed after the commandments to honor god?the torah is the first five book of the bible? have you read them. these are genesis, exodus,leviticus, numbers, deuteromony.

from it we get the history of where nation of isreal came from. from it we get the idea of the fall of man. the redeemer that was to come.what was the word that paul said we were to study in his day? it was the tanach. the bible wasn't around then.so in order to tell the gentiles and the jews what was up he used the torah.

 

[Mitspa]

I understand what you say Mitspa. The semantics are unavoidable and as I have said before, your zeal is real. I do not mean to imply that you are wasting your time, nor anyone else here is wasting theirs. I am simply trying to point out the barriers that exist in the human language that prevent people from understanding one another. I'm just saying.

Well I understand your thought that this issue is not as important as some of us make it, but one should see that this very issue of Gods promise and mans efforts are at the very core of all the scriptures. Many of the wars that have been fought in world history and even in modern history are over this very issue. The Reformation itself was started when Luther read and believed that a man is justified by faith alone in Christ.
Paul spends most of the New Testament explaining this issue, it is at the heart of all understanding of New Testament truth.

So I do understand how it can all get confused, do we do good because we are good or because God is good? Does God accept our efforts to do good? The answer is no His does not, and only that which comes from Him and He works through us is accepted before Him.
1 Cor 4:7

I don't know what I have said that would give you the impression that I think this issue is trivial. I think it is a major pillar which supports a vast host of lies. I only wish to guard myself lest I become a crucifier when I thought I was being crucified. Note: If I think I would not have fallen into the same vanity of Satan without Satan, then is this not the vanity of Satan? Do you know what I mean by this?

Well you seem to speak in riddles? I speak in clear terms. I have no doubt in my positions and stand fast in the liberty in which Christ has made me free. Whether you see the importance of this issue or not I cannot tell? But I know that often some attempt to downplay this issue, when too much truth is being revealed. Or when they find themselves in a place where they have no answer to the clear truth of scripture.
Of course this is not your motives, I am sure?

 

[jasoncran]

childeye. the nation of isreal came from a slave existence one where they were hated and likely Hebrews also worked with the Egyptians to enforce the laws of Egypt. if you take the law from that angle then you will see why it is what it is.if you notice it speaks a lot on treatment of fellow Hebrews, and not to oppress the foreigner.that is how it teaches.

 

[childeye]

actually it teaches.why is the fourth commandment listed after the commandments to honor god?the torah is the first five book of the bible? have you read them. these are genesis, exodus,leviticus, numbers, deuteromony.

from it we get the history of where nation of isreal came from. from it we get the idea of the fall of man. the redeemer that was to come.what was the word that paul said we were to study in his day? it was the tanach. the bible wasn't around then.so in order to tell the gentiles and the jews what was up he used the torah.

I've read the Torah. That does not mean I understand all that is in there, for much of it is a type for what was to come and it must be revealed according to God's revelation. To me the basics are that the Israelites existed for one purpose, to bring forth the Messiah. And hence the Messiah was rejected in part so that the nations might receive him, and his being rejected became a blessing for all the world. The other part is to destroy the works of Satan and this was done by the law, through the law and according to the law. In Christ I see and know a Love that the Torah is only a shadow of. So, what am I missing, and what has this got to do with your comment about someone not knowing Love?

 

[childeye]

childeye. the nation of isreal came from a slave existence one where they were hated and likely Hebrews also worked with the Egyptians to enforce the laws of Egypt. if you take the law from that angle then you will see why it is what it is.if you notice it speaks a lot on treatment of fellow Hebrews, and not to oppress the foreigner.that is how it teaches.

Yes I see that in the Torah. I see that even clearer in the Christ. For the bondage is a type for the bondage unto sin. Now we know that the law is good and meant to address sin. But it also empowers sin. In your words, why is that?

 

[jasoncran]

because they are a people separate unto him. the torah was rules that they had to live by. the torah is also whom jesus is. he quoted few prophets. Moses a lot.
v
when he rebuked the devil. he quoted moses twice. the torah is a shadow yes. but that doesn't mean it doesn't show us jesus. if you read the law right you will see the reflection.if you dont know the foundation of why jesus came then you wont really understand the nt at all.

so when jesus said love to the jews. they didn't know it? they had to wait for him to show them love?remember the nt is mostly epistles to the churches dealing with local church issues. few verses are there that really show love. the gospel has it but really its also found in the torah.

jesus said

"love thy enemy"

but moses also commanded.

" if thou finds thine enemies ass astray THOU SHALL NOT FAIL TO RETURN IT TO HIM OR IN a pit.."

 

[jasoncran]

I wouldn't say empowers. rather defines it.

 

[childeye]

I understand what you say Mitspa. The semantics are unavoidable and as I have said before, your zeal is real. I do not mean to imply that you are wasting your time, nor anyone else here is wasting theirs. I am simply trying to point out the barriers that exist in the human language that prevent people from understanding one another. I'm just saying.

Well I understand your thought that this issue is not as important as some of us make it, but one should see that this very issue of Gods promise and mans efforts are at the very core of all the scriptures. Many of the wars that have been fought in world history and even in modern history are over this very issue. The Reformation itself was started when Luther read and believed that a man is justified by faith alone in Christ.
Paul spends most of the New Testament explaining this issue, it is at the heart of all understanding of New Testament truth.

So I do understand how it can all get confused, do we do good because we are good or because God is good? Does God accept our efforts to do good? The answer is no His does not, and only that which comes from Him and He works through us is accepted before Him.
1 Cor 4:7

I don't know what I have said that would give you the impression that I think this issue is trivial. I think it is a major pillar which supports a vast host of lies. I only wish to guard myself lest I become a crucifier when I thought I was being crucified. Note: If I think I would not have fallen into the same vanity of Satan without Satan, then is this not the vanity of Satan? Do you know what I mean by this?

Well you seem to speak in riddles? I speak in clear terms. I have no doubt in my positions and stand fast in the liberty in which Christ has made me free. Whether you see the importance of this issue or not I cannot tell? But I know that often some attempt to downplay this issue, when too much truth is being revealed. Or when they find themselves in a place where they have no answer to the clear truth of scripture.
Of course this is not your motives, I am sure?

I will not address the issue of my speaking in riddles. I have to go watch my grandchild play volleyball. Correction, I get to go watch my grandchild play volleyball. So that issue is going to have to wait and only if God permits. But I will say this. I will think about what you said about downplaying the issue and read back on some of my posts to try and see why you say this about me.

 

[childeye]

because they are a people separate unto him. the torah was rules that they had to live by. the torah is also whom jesus is. he quoted few prophets. Moses a lot.
v
when he rebuked the devil. he quoted moses twice. the torah is a shadow yes. but that doesn't mean it doesn't show us jesus. if you read the law right you will see the reflection.if you dont know the foundation of why jesus came then you wont really understand the nt at all.

so when jesus said love to the jews. they didn't know it? they had to wait for him to show them love?remember the nt is mostly epistles to the churches dealing with local church issues. few verses are there that really show love. the gospel has it but really its also found in the torah.

jesus said

"love thy enemy"

but moses also commanded.

" if thou finds thine enemies ass astray THOU SHALL NOT FAIL TO RETURN IT TO HIM OR IN a pit.."

I have to go. I will address your post later God permitting.

 

[JLB]

ok, if one never really knew what love is.then how would one know how to love?if you don't think that is possible

http://www.covenanthouse.org/about-homeless-charity

that deals with kids who has parents that will have them sell drugs for them and don't care if they die.

Even if you knew how to love, you still don't have the love that God requires.

But thanks be to God that Christ Jesus does and its His Love in us that God is looking for.

It is His Love, through His nature within us that is capable.

Our love falls short in every way.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks fo asking, I've been feeling left out. I believe the law was a trap for Satan and it was sprung on the day he crucified the Christ. Hebrews 2:14, 1John 3:8, Revelations 1:18, Collossians 2:14-15, Galatians 3:19, Mark 12:1-8, Revelations 12:4, Luke 22:2-3, Revelations 12:5-11.

Here's where the problem with semantics lie. The law is now useless for those who have recieved the holy Spirit and walk by the power of a living Truth. However, the law is fully active for those that do not have the Holy Spirit. So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

Thanks for your answer. I can appreciate the idea you convey by saying - So it has both passed away and it has not passed away.

I make this point myself when referring to the phrase - The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

I will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, that is those who study and know the scriptures and have Gods Spirit.

It will come as a thief in the night for the world.

However, in this case we have some distinctly phrased scripture that states that the Law was temporary, that is the law of Moses. The Law of God is different in that it is Eternal.

Case in point:

as you quoted - Galatians 3:19

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

This clearly says, it, The Law of Moses, was added until the Seed should come...

To me that means: The law of Moses was a part of The Covenant and would remain until it was taken out of the way and replaced by the New [fresh] Covenant.

Fresh, not different. The new quality it has is Blood of Jesus and His New Nature empowered by The Holy Spirit and His Gifts.

We as Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Covenant that The Lord Jesus made with Abraham, not the Covenant at Sinai.
16 For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:16-17

and again -


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Notice how this idea is expressed by the writer of the book of Hebrews -

Then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By saying "takes away", the Holy Spirit is indicating the removal of "first", not a co-existence, but a removal of that which has been added, in order to establish the second "in its place".

again he says -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Please consider these scriptures.

Thanks JLB

Since we are in Christ because of a promise made to Abraham, there is nothing we have done that was not God's doing.

Amen to that!

JLB

 

[childeye]

because they are a people separate unto him. the torah was rules that they had to live by. the torah is also whom jesus is. he quoted few prophets. Moses a lot.
v
when he rebuked the devil. he quoted moses twice. the torah is a shadow yes. but that doesn't mean it doesn't show us jesus. if you read the law right you will see the reflection.if you dont know the foundation of why jesus came then you wont really understand the nt at all.

so when jesus said love to the jews. they didn't know it? they had to wait for him to show them love?remember the nt is mostly epistles to the churches dealing with local church issues. few verses are there that really show love. the gospel has it but really its also found in the torah.

jesus said

"love thy enemy"

but moses also commanded.

" if thou finds thine enemies ass astray THOU SHALL NOT FAIL TO RETURN IT TO HIM OR IN a pit.."

I understand that the law says all this, but the Christ in me does it without having to be read it. Moreover, for me to now study the law as a means of knowing righteousness would be a denial of what God has given me by grace, would it not? Please answer that question because that is where this issue is resolved.