When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Ryan]

since the time of Constantine, whom slew Christians jews and removed most of jewish thinking from the church.. the reformers also didn't change or correct that. im not for making a kosher church but at least study the tanach from the right perspective.many churches teach that ot is done away with and don't read it and also study only the nt.

From my studies, Constantine was just the final nail in the coffin that separated the church from its "Jewishness." The separation was beginning even from Paul's day, but I don't have the verse in hand at the moment.

The early church fathers documents reveal they were already teaching this separation in the 2nd century. Ignatius and Justin Martyr teaching and professing well before Constantine to remove the Jewish identity from the church. It's a history none to many are familiar with, or want to be familiar with.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, Im not denying that. but well how does one actually know that? by studying the word! the power to do is In the SON. its like this. the bible has power to convict men of their sins. ever read it and have it tell you. hey knucklehead. stop this sin! I have.

actually Abraham never did the shabat. it was never told to him. he only did the circumcision which isn't found in the ten commandments.otherwise noah also being righteous would be doing the ten commandments too and there wouldn't be a gentile but a Hebrew world nation.

any relationship has rules. if God didn't want rules he wouldn't have told them to men whom would serve him. if you notice it was after the exodus to horeb that the law was given.

 

[jasoncran]

Justin martyr. calls the church isreal. I have read his statement and post that here.

 

[Mitspa]

no but it was given from God.

sheesh why read the bible if we only need jesus?

so god repealed the ten commandments.?

killing is ok?lying is ok?lust is ok?
moses codified merely what was orally passed on a lot of these laws.

those before him also were told not do to them either.

The ten commandments were around before the Law of Moses.

Abraham learned and walked in these Laws because he learned them from God directly. He learned them through relationship.

This principle is seen in the garden when the Lord gave instructions not to learn "good from evil" apart from Him.

He restated this principle for us in John -

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

Today we are guilty of trying to "learn" how to be "good' apart from relationship with Him.

as it is written -

Walk before Me and be blameless.

as it is said today -

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

and again -

Apart from Me you can do nothing.

The heart-cry of the Lord from the beginning is Love. To be loved and obeyed by His Eternal Soul-Mate.

for it is written -

It is not good for Man to be alone...

JLB

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the OLD PATHS, where is the good way, and walk ye therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

The OLD PATHS are the ways of Enoch and Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Before the law of Moses and as our brother JLB taught us all.

 

[cupid dave]

The subject title says it all. I have had different answers to this question from people I know. What does this forum think?

When did the Law pass or is it still operating? And if it still is in effect, shouldn't we be obeying all the "jots and tittles" of it?

I don't think it is a simple question to answer...

The Laws show us that our acts are harming others.
Breaking the laws draws to our attention to the fact that our behavior has bad consequences for man, in genrl, or speifically in one case or another.
By infrming us that we did stuff that ultimately hurts others, we realize that we asre not loving our neighbor, nor God, which is the sum of the Law in regard to its purposed goal.

When one recognizes the effect of breaking the laws shows he does not love his neighbr, he realizes he is not pleasing god.
It is immaterial whether a theocracy or a society brings his law breaking to his attention or nt.
It is only important when he recognizes that he breaks the law, harms his neighbor, and repeats the same bad behaviors over and again.

Recognizing this allows a good persn to change his conduct, because he sees the truth fo what it is.
Nothing is accomplished by having Laws, breaking them, paying the tithe or the fine, and returning to the same behaviors next week.

One must recognize that he hurts others by keeping the Law in his mind BEFORE he breaks them.
Tithes and sacrifices imply he recognizes he broke laws after the fact.

 

[jasoncran]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

 

[Ryan]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

It was an already well established practice. Saturday was synagogue day. Just like when you ask someone if they go to church today. Everybody already knows church is Sundays. You don't have to tell them the day of the week on when the Christian goes to church. It's just an already established tradition and needs no explanation. That's why. Back then, the practice was Shabbat was on Saturdays. No other explanation needed.

 

[JLB]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

Sabbath has been around since the beginning.

Man needs to rest one day a week.

The Eternal Sabbath Rest is found in Christ, of which the Sabbath in the law of Moses pointed to.

Personally, I believe the Thousand years is the seventh prophetic Day, and represents the Sabbath that God intended from the beginning, of which no one can enter except through Christ.

So again, its the sabbath of God, not the sabbath found in the Law of Moses with its requirements.

JLB

 

[JLB]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

It was an already well established practice. Saturday was synagogue day. Just like when you ask someone if they go to church today. Everybody already knows church is Sundays. You don't have to tell them the day of the week on when the Christian goes to church. It's just an already established tradition and needs no explanation. That's why. Back then, the practice was Shabbat was on Saturdays. No other explanation needed.

For Jews. However there were many Sabbaths. Sabbath weeks and years... So the Sabbath is an extensive Jewish Law that was "taken away" when the new Covenant was established.

as it is written -

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

No other explanation needed.

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

Sabbath has been around since the beginning.

Man needs to rest one day a week.

The Eternal Sabbath Rest is found in Christ, of which the Sabbath in the law of Moses pointed to.

Personally, I believe the Thousand years is the seventh prophetic Day, and represents the Sabbath that God intended from the beginning, of which no one can enter except through Christ.

So again, its the sabbath of God, not the sabbath found in the Law of Moses with its requirements.

JLB

Matt 12:8
Mar 2:28
Luk 6:5
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Sabbath and the ruler and Lord over the sabbath day. Heb 4:1-4

 

[Mitspa]

no but it was given from God.

sheesh why read the bible if we only need jesus?

so god repealed the ten commandments.?

killing is ok?lying is ok?lust is ok?
moses codified merely what was orally passed on a lot of these laws.

those before him also were told not do to them either.

The ten commandments were around before the Law of Moses.

Abraham learned and walked in these Laws because he learned them from God directly. He learned them through relationship.

This principle is seen in the garden when the Lord gave instructions not to learn "good from evil" apart from Him.

He restated this principle for us in John -

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

Today we are guilty of trying to "learn" how to be "good' apart from relationship with Him.

as it is written -

Walk before Me and be blameless.

as it is said today -

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

and again -

Apart from Me you can do nothing.

The heart-cry of the Lord from the beginning is Love. To be loved and obeyed by His Eternal Soul-Mate.

for it is written -

It is not good for Man to be alone...

JLB

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the OLD PATHS, where is the good way, and walk ye therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

The OLD PATHS are the ways of Enoch and Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Before the law of Moses and as our brother JLB taught us all.

The OLD PATHS. eternal paths.
Heb 4:3
The rest of God was from the beginning. Those who walked in the OLD PATHS, are those who know God from the beginning. They have set their mind on ETERNAL THINGS.
and have entered into Gods eternal rest.

 

[jasoncran]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

Sabbath has been around since the beginning.

Man needs to rest one day a week.

The Eternal Sabbath Rest is found in Christ, of which the Sabbath in the law of Moses pointed to.

Personally, I believe the Thousand years is the seventh prophetic Day, and represents the Sabbath that God intended from the beginning, of which no one can enter except through Christ.

So again, its the sabbath of God, not the sabbath found in the Law of Moses with its requirements.

JLB

uhm. so its a SIN for those that work on sundays? ryan that is a weak argument as most Christians work in America on sunday and also go to eat after church. causing a man to sin is a sin.

 

[jasoncran]

I have a question for those that hold to the fact that torah doesn't teach. if I have a child(see the avatar) and love her. DO not I set rules for her, tell her no when she does something bad for her. demonstrate love for her by giving to her and also correction?

if yes then that is what the torah is for.otherwise, lets just pray to jesus and not read bible. somehow God will just transform us to his will. yet paul says the bible(in his day it was the tanach) is for correction.

 

[JLB]

well they why did the acts 15 council not command the church to do shabat since it was before the law of moses?

Sabbath has been around since the beginning.

Man needs to rest one day a week.

The Eternal Sabbath Rest is found in Christ, of which the Sabbath in the law of Moses pointed to.

Personally, I believe the Thousand years is the seventh prophetic Day, and represents the Sabbath that God intended from the beginning, of which no one can enter except through Christ.

So again, its the sabbath of God, not the sabbath found in the Law of Moses with its requirements.

JLB

uhm. so its a SIN for those that work on sundays? ryan that is a weak argument as most Christians work in America on sunday and also go to eat after church. causing a man to sin is a sin.

How do you "jump" to that conclusion. We are discussing the Law and specifically the Sabbath.

The Sabbath, as it was "required" in the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross.

The sabbath that God intended from the beginning is found in Christ and teaches us that we need to have a day of rest.

Sunday has nothing to do with this discussion! Nothing.

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

ok so then was the first two then? the law was what? it was nailed so that means the curse of it? or the definitions of sin? Christ fulfilled the law. he didn't cancel out the definitions of sin.

if you are going to take that way then so was the first two commandments as they are in the same tablet given to moses. the curse was removed.

the rest you speak of is found in Christ but not as you say. otherwise its a sin to work on sunday or Saturday. messianic jews don't worship on sunday. but do the shabat and hold shabat services. they read the torah and also the brit chadosh.

estemming one day is spoken off in romans 14 that is a direct reference to shabat and the feasts. moons so forth.

im not one of those that says working on sunday is a sin.yes we should rest but that isn't always possible to some. single mothers and those with needs that they can meet through work. that is another topic.

 

[jasoncran]

I also ask why do you think that enoch did the shabat? remember genesis is written from moses' exodus experience. Abraham never know the name of the lord
exodus 6

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

 

[JLB]

I have a question for those that hold to the fact that torah doesn't teach. if I have a child(see the avatar) and love her. DO not I set rules for her, tell her no when she does something bad for her. demonstrate love for her by giving to her and also correction?

if yes then that is what the torah is for.otherwise, lets just pray to jesus and not read bible. somehow God will just transform us to his will. yet paul says the bible(in his day it was the tanach) is for correction.

Nobody in this thread has stated the Torah doesn't teach.

Those are your words.

You are mixing together the Laws of Gods kingdom, which are Eternal, together with the Law of Moses.

Laws, commandments, rules, precepts... do not have their origin in the Law of Moses.

They come from God and were here from the beginning.

It started for us with -

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 2:16

Thus the Law of sin and death was introduced.

As you can see, this did not begin with the law of Moses.

A commandment is something God tells you to do.

Which is not necessarily one of the 10 commandments, for God spoke of Abraham, who by the way was a Gentile, in this manner 430 years before the Law of Moses -

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

why then did god write the ten commandments on a tablet?
if moses already knew them? remember moses wrote the torah. what is the torah? genesis, exodus, Leviticus, numbers and deuteromony.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_torah.html

the torah is what?

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html

that is an messianic jews site. its implied that the torah is from god and a reflection of god's nature. that is from jewish thought. I assmed wrongly.

and moses was the man who had the ten commandments not Abraham.

34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

.

covenant and the TEN commandments,hmm.
.
god wrote those. not moses. you are correct but I guess its too much to ask that we know the torah that well. if we stop looking at the torah like the gentiles and see it as the jews see it we then see it like a parent to his child and that is what that link said.

we teach our children right from wrong. they aren't born with it. nd yet we have churches that teach we don't need to know right from wrong cause we got jesus.

Abraham had a torah, but not the teaching from the mount Sinai.

ABRAHAM A GENTILE. REALLY if Abraham was gentile then who was the father of the Hebrew nation. he was a gentile up till he was circumcised.!

 

[childeye]

If you have children, have you ever told them a new rule, only for them the next second later to be doing the same thing you told them not to do? That is what that passage is referring to in simplicity. It is human nature to be rebellious, and to do that which we are told not to do. Now that we know what sin is, there is a realization of the truth and an internal struggle to deal with it. Romans 7 is a difficult chapter. But think of when you may have been given a rule, and that rule invoked in you a response to break it when that opportunity came. Whatever rule that may have been. Or, you were told to not ride your bike on the street when all along that is what you were doing. Now you were told you can't ride your bike on the street, but you want to do it because that is what you did before. My understanding anyways.

Yes of course this happens and I agree with this. Deeper still is the question of why does one tend to rebel in the defense of their intense desire to be their own boss rather than submit and trust in a loving guidance? It is because we feel we must prove ourselves. My view of why the law empowers sin is because we are prideful flesh and sold to sin after this manner of vanity. Any attempt to do good out of that flesh is based upon an ignorance that God is our goodness and that there is nothing good in us that is not God's to begin with.

Consequently, if I endeavour to give charity for the sake of my personal stature with God or my peers, it is not out of the pure love of empathy. If I endeavour to even love God with all my heart mind and soul so that I strain with all my might to keep that commandment by my own volition, I have already failed. But when He reveals Himself to me wherein I cannot help but adore Him for Who He is, I cannot fail to keep that commandment. I therefore don't seek to keep the law anymore. But by the Love that I know is Him inside me, for which I am truly thankful, with all purity and confidence, and with all humility, I trust I will do what He intended in the law. I think you know this from the things you write. In summary, the law empowers sin because when I try to prove I am good, I prove I am bad.

See here the problem with semantics:

Romans 2:13

New International Version (NIV)

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I agree. Helping a brother, sister, neighbour, friend, enemy should come from a desire and inclination to love one another. If one is doing it solely to earn brownie points with God, and begrudgingly assist someone else out of obligation instead of empathy as you said, they need to look at their heart. So yes, I believe we are on the same wave length.

Please forgive me, but I would respectfully ask that you permit me to hear one thing spoken or rather written here on this forum, from your honest heart. I feel badly for asking this, but would you please, say "Thank You" to our Father for His Spirit of Love that is our only goodness?

 

[childeye]

because they are a people separate unto him. the torah was rules that they had to live by. the torah is also whom jesus is. he quoted few prophets. Moses a lot.
v
when he rebuked the devil. he quoted moses twice. the torah is a shadow yes. but that doesn't mean it doesn't show us jesus. if you read the law right you will see the reflection.if you dont know the foundation of why jesus came then you wont really understand the nt at all.

so when jesus said love to the jews. they didn't know it? they had to wait for him to show them love?remember the nt is mostly epistles to the churches dealing with local church issues. few verses are there that really show love. the gospel has it but really its also found in the torah.

jesus said

"love thy enemy"

but moses also commanded.

" if thou finds thine enemies ass astray THOU SHALL NOT FAIL TO RETURN IT TO HIM OR IN a pit.."

I understand that the law says all this, but the Christ in me does it without having to be read it. Moreover, for me to now study the law as a means of knowing righteousness would be a denial of what God has given me by grace, would it not? Please answer that question because that is where this issue is resolved.

so why do we even have the tanach then.?
@Ryan , this statement is classic from the church that taught jews were evil and were Christ killers etc.
@JLB . so we don't have to forgive our enemies. only Christ did that.? Christ didn't say we are to love thy enemies. it teaches love in that when we fall short we go to whom can install the love.otherwise. rip out 1 Corinthians 13. of which I was convicted in church for being selfish at times.

Please forgive me, but I would respectfully ask that you permit me to hear one thing spoken or rather written here on this forum, from your honest heart. I feel badly for asking this, but would you please, say "Thank You to our Father for His Spirit of Love that is our only goodness?"