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When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

yea its called those who are led of the Spirit, ARE THE SONS OF GOD. there is no other.

The jew in the flesh is nothing and those who look to the written code are just in error.

Considering that Paul says Gentiles were GRAFTED ONTO the olive tree, it suggests that there WAS a remnant to graft ONTO.

Now, this tells us that there WERE righteous people that Christians were being grafted onto. People who WERE JUST in God's eyes. People who lived by faith, people using the Law as a guideline and working with the Spirit of God within them. In other words, righteousness did not just begin with Pauline times. This is what I have been struggling to tell you, but you will not listen. There have ALWAYS been righteous people, a remnant, that God has preserved who live by faith.

Thus, your interpretation of Romans 3 cannot be correct. Even the Psalms Paul cites. You should actually read them. You will find WITHIN THEM examples of people who are seeking God! Paul cannot possibly mean literally 'no one seeks God' when the very Psalm he is citing says "I seek out God" (can't refer to Christ when it speaks about "you removed my sins")
 
JLB,

6 ‘None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness; I am the Lord. 7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness. 8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness. 9 The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover. 10 The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours. 11 The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, born to your father, she is your sister, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s blood relative. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s blood relative. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother; you shall not approach his wife, she is your aunt. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are blood relatives. It is lewdness. 18 You shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a rival while she is alive, to uncover her nakedness.

19 ‘Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity. 20 You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor’s wife, to be defiled with her. 21 You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the Lord. 22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. 23 Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.

(Leviticus 18:6-23 NASB)



Passed away, or not passed away?

If so, when?

how about Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother and his father AND KEEP MY SABBATHS, I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD.

if the sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ and it is kept in the Spirit, then all the law! EVERY JOT AND TITTLE is fulfilled in CHRIST and kept in the Spirit.
Kept in the Spirit? I don't think you know what that means. And what you can't explain is why the fulfillment of the Sabbath requirement is not literal, but 'do not murder' is fulfilled literally. I know you can't because if you could explain it you wouldn't be making the arguments you're making.

Now, answer the question I asked: "Passed away, or not passed away? If so, when?"



HERE IS A CLUE to all you who are so attracted to animals!

KNOW YE NOT THAT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS WITHIN YOU?

this is the issue of you folks who look to the written code.

KNOW YE NOT?
How is it that the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person has nothing to do with the law of Moses and in fact stands opposite of the Holy Spirit?

What does 'look to the written code' mean to you?
 
Again I will use the point, if the Sinai Covenant was only for the Jews, what makes you think the New Covenant is for you either? Yes the Law of Moses was to set Israel above the nations. But it was to allow inclusion for foreigners to worship the God of Israel.

The Law of Moses was temporarily added to the Covenant. If it was permanent then it would have set aside the Promise. The Promise was that - you shall be a father of many nations.

Paul who is qualified to teach and explain the Law explains to us this very thing -

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17

The Law of Moses can not annul the Covenant that it was added to!

The Covenant had always included Gentiles.

It is this Covenant that we are "grafted" into in Christ.

The Law of Moses, which provided a temporary fence around the Covenant with Abraham, because of transgressions, became obsolete and began vanishing when God declared a "New Covenant" out of the mouth of Jeremiah.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

and again -

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.


However the the Eternal Laws of God that were from the beginning and clearly seen in the Law of Moses, especially the ten commandments, remained even though the Law of Moses was taken out of the way.

The Law of sin and death that operated in all when Adam sinned, for we all were contained in his loins, is now super-ceded by the Law of the Spirit of Life, for those who do not walk after the flesh.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Roman 8:1-4


... For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh.


The Law of the Lord is Perfect and Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and has vanished away, in that it was weak through the flesh.

We do not go back to the "husband" we were married to and are accounted as adulterers, for we are married now to the One who was raised from the dead and we are now governed by the perfect law of liberty.

For we have come into the Glorious Liberty of the sons of God.

Not bound by fleshly rules and fleshly laws.


JLB
 
Considering that Paul says Gentiles were GRAFTED ONTO the olive tree, it suggests that there WAS a remnant to graft ONTO.

Yes, if that is indeed what he meant. I thought that we, each one, understood Jesus to be the tree and those who follow to be the branch. So that it was a branch that was cut? That is what I read in Rom 11:17, Jer 11:16, John 15:1, John 15:2 and in other places. While speaking of 'trees' there were two olive trees, one wild and one cultivated, but that is a different metaphor and may not be used to show that other Scriptures make no sense. I personally very much like the Jer 11:16 and use it to light up other scripture about branches: Peter 4:18, Proverbs 11:31, 1 Timothy 1:9 and especially:

Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then
“ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’​
For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

While speaking of those who follow we see that the tree is drying out. What will happen when it is dry? Quench not the Spirit of Christ, for this is our water, our life. Continue to build each other up and do no longer chop one down the other. What kind of bonfire shall we make? A rip-roaring one, I'd say. Pass the marshmallows or form a fire-brigade of unity, the choice is before us.
 
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Yes, if that is indeed what he meant. I thought that we, each one, understood Jesus to be the tree and those who follow to be the branch. So that it was a branch that was cut? That is what I read in Rom 11:17, Jer 11:16, John 15:1, John 15:2 and in other places. While speaking of 'trees' there were two olive trees, one wild and one cultivated, but that is a different metaphor and may not be used to show that other Scriptures make no sense. I personally very much like the Jer 11:16 and use it to light up other scripture about branches: Peter 4:18, Proverbs 11:31, 1 Timothy 1:9 and especially:



In Romans 11, verse 17 teaches us that though we were grafted in place where others were broken off, it is the "source", that is to say the root, that sustains the tree.

The root being the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham.

We know the Lord is Jesus, who made Covenant with Abraham, and it the Lord who became flesh to "ratify" this Blood Covenant, of which Abraham did his part of "blood letting" by circumcision.

So then, what do we say, the Law was added till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. The Seed being the Lord who made Covenant with Abraham and The Lord who became flesh.

Where is our boasting then? The root sustains us.


JLB
 
Yes, if that is indeed what he meant. I thought that we, each one, understood Jesus to be the tree and those who follow to be the branch. So that it was a branch that was cut? That is what I read in Rom 11:17, Jer 11:16, John 15:1, John 15:2 and in other places. While speaking of 'trees' there were two olive trees, one wild and one cultivated, but that is a different metaphor and may not be used to show that other Scriptures make no sense. I personally very much like the Jer 11:16 and use it to light up other scripture about branches: Peter 4:18, Proverbs 11:31, 1 Timothy 1:9 and especially:



In Romans 11, verse 17 teaches us that though we were grafted in place where others were broken off, it is the "source", that is to say the root, that sustains the tree.

The root being the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham.

We know the Lord is Jesus, who made Covenant with Abraham, and it the Lord who became flesh to "ratify" this Blood Covenant, of which Abraham did his part of "blood letting" by circumcision.

So then, what do we say, the Law was added till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. The Seed being the Lord who made Covenant with Abraham and The Lord who became flesh.

Where is our boasting then? The root sustains us.


JLB

In all of your marvelous teachings, do you know what law was added?
 
Yes, if that is indeed what he meant. I thought that we, each one, understood Jesus to be the tree and those who follow to be the branch. So that it was a branch that was cut? That is what I read in Rom 11:17, Jer 11:16, John 15:1, John 15:2 and in other places. While speaking of 'trees' there were two olive trees, one wild and one cultivated, but that is a different metaphor and may not be used to show that other Scriptures make no sense. I personally very much like the Jer 11:16 and use it to light up other scripture about branches: Peter 4:18, Proverbs 11:31, 1 Timothy 1:9 and especially:



In Romans 11, verse 17 teaches us that though we were grafted in place where others were broken off, it is the "source", that is to say the root, that sustains the tree.

The root being the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham.

We know the Lord is Jesus, who made Covenant with Abraham, and it the Lord who became flesh to "ratify" this Blood Covenant, of which Abraham did his part of "blood letting" by circumcision.

So then, what do we say, the Law was added till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. The Seed being the Lord who made Covenant with Abraham and The Lord who became flesh.

Where is our boasting then? The root sustains us.


JLB

In all of your marvelous teachings, do you know what law was added?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:10-14

That would be law of Moses.

JLB
 
Luke 16:16: “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.”

“For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light... He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.” Luke 16:8,15

It's true that the Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force. Mat 11:12, “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.”

It is not true that we are called to fight each other or to bicker. The Spirit of Christ and the Mind of Christ is first of all peaceable.

SpiritisPeace_zps320ed4c1.jpg


:shame Look when the "firstfruits" of Love, Joy, Peace are cultivated and harvested.
Are we there yet? Huh? Mommy, I wanna go to Baskin Robins®, are we there yet?

Firstfruits_zpscefbb5ef.png
 
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

God added ceremonial laws because of disobedience.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now, if transgression was the problem, why add more law that equaled more transgression? The Laws added were the ceremonial laws that pointed to Christ...

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what you are saying is that if I have faith, my actions are of no consequence? Either it is wrong to murder or it is not. Either it is wrong to commit adultery or it is not. God is not some liberal judge that thinks the best way to solve a sin problem is to do away with the law that defines sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul plainly shows here that the tenth Commandment is still in force. The way to solve a sin problem is to send His Son who bore the curse (the death penalty) of the Law in our stead, but He doesn't say, "OK, go out and do anything you want, I paid the penalty for you and will keep paying it for as long as you want to do anything your carnal heart desires." Rather, He said go and quit sinning...

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Most people read this as if the last part of verse 11 isn't really there, they read it like this: "Neither do I condemn thee: go."

We are admonished to repent...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter was still of the notion that we need to repent (quit sinning) and our sins would be remitted by Christ's sacrifice.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Notice what is blotted out? The Law? Nope, our sins are blotted out.
 
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JLB,

You asked, so here's more of them:

2 “‘You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.

3 Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father...

4 Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods..

11 ‘You shall not steal...

...nor deal falsely

...nor lie to one another.

12 You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God...

13 ‘You shall not oppress your neighbor...

...nor rob him.

14 You shall not curse a deaf man...

...nor place a stumbling block before the blind...

...you shall revere your God...

15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
(This is one that James uses to illustrate the faith that saves--the faith that upholds the law of Moses)

16 You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people...

...you are not to act against the life of your neighbor...

17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart...

18 You shall not take vengeance...

...nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people...

...you shall love your neighbor as yourself...

26 ‘You shall not eat anything with the blood...
(IMO, possibly symbolic of a spiritual truth, therefore, subject to conscience, but who eats blood anyway?)

...nor practice divination or soothsaying.

28 You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves (idol worship)

29 ‘Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.

31 ‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them.

32 ‘You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged...

...you shall revere your God...

33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.

34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself...

35 ‘You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.

36 You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin...

(Levitucus 19)



Passed away, or not passed away?

If they did pass away, when did that happen?
 
For we have come into the Glorious Liberty of the sons of God.

Not bound by fleshly rules and fleshly laws.
Which means I don't have to acknowledge or keep any of the fleshly rules and fleshly laws of the law of Moses that I've been listing?

Wouldn't that be returning to husband 'flesh' I'm no longer married to and, therefore, don't have to submit to anymore (because he died)?

Help me understand your doctrine of law in this New Covenant.
 
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Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

God added ceremonial laws because of disobedience.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now, if transgression was the problem, why add more law that equaled more transgression? The Laws added were the ceremonial laws that pointed to Christ...

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what you are saying is that if I have faith, my actions are of no consequence? Either it is wrong to murder or it is not. Either it is wrong to commit adultery or it is not. God is not some liberal judge that thinks the best way to solve a sin problem is to do away with the law that defines sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul plainly shows here that the tenth Commandment is still in force. The way to solve a sin problem is to send His Son who bore the curse (the death penalty) of the Law in our stead, but He doesn't say, "OK, go out and do anything you want, I paid the penalty for you and will keep paying it for as long as you want to do anything your carnal heart desires." Rather, He said go and quit sinning...

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Most people read this as if the last part of verse 11 isn't really there, they read it like this: "Neither do I condemn thee: go."

We are admonished to repent...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter was still of the notion that we need to repent (quit sinning) and our sins would be remitted by Christ's sacrifice.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Notice what is blotted out? The Law? Nope, our sins are blotted out.
:thumbsup
 
For we have come into the Glorious Liberty of the sons of God.

Not bound by fleshly rules and fleshly laws.
Which means I don't have to acknowledge or keep any of the fleshly rules and fleshly laws of the law of Moses that I've been listing?

Wouldn't that be returning to husband 'flesh' I'm no longer married to and, therefore, don't have to submit to anymore (because he died)?

Help me understand your doctrine of law in this New Covenant.

First of all, I would like for you and I to get past this nonsense of having No Laws whatsoever because we are under Grace. That mindset is that of the lawless.

I would have hoped by now that you don't have me "lumped" into that mainstream Christian Mindset.

We who are married to Him who is resurrected from the dead are held to a "Higher Standard" than those who were under the Law of Moses.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

By what law are we held more accountable than those who were under the Law of Moses?

The Law of requirement!

To whom much is given, much is required.

If the Laws of Moses were applicable to us in whom the Nature of Christ dwells, then what was the purpose of Him fulfilling the Law of Moses, so that now we are one with Him who was raised from the dead, that is to say we are married to Him who was raised from the dead and are no longer under the law of our former husband, for we share His life, Eternal Life for now we know him and are joined to Him.

For it is written -

We have been raised together with Him and been made to sit with Him in heavenly places.

We will always be subject to the laws of His Kingdom, as well as to obey Him in what He asks of us.


JLB
 
Considering that Paul says Gentiles were GRAFTED ONTO the olive tree, it suggests that there WAS a remnant to graft ONTO.

Yes, if that is indeed what he meant. I thought that we, each one, understood Jesus to be the tree and those who follow to be the branch. So that it was a branch that was cut? That is what I read in Rom 11:17, Jer 11:16, John 15:1, John 15:2 and in other places. While speaking of 'trees' there were two olive trees, one wild and one cultivated, but that is a different metaphor and may not be used to show that other Scriptures make no sense. I personally very much like the Jer 11:16 and use it to light up other scripture about branches: Peter 4:18, Proverbs 11:31, 1 Timothy 1:9

I brought this up vs Mitspa's warped idea of Pauline interpretation that "no one was just", etc...

Paul, in Romans 3, is only talking about ONE aspect of Judaism. Scriptures relate many other things that he was refusing to address.

One of the biggest ideas within Judaism is the idea of election. That they were the People of God. Now, according to Mitspa, justification, in the Jews' eyes, was about legalism and earning justification. This ignores one of the key parts of Judaism - and it is based upon GOD'S INITIATIVE. No Jew would say that they earned God's will to make THEM the people of the elect. Thus, all Judaism was not about "earning justification", etc...

Election/predestination is, of course, based upon the idea that God is doing the electing and providing the Grace. If such a people ALREADY EXISTED as a remnant (which Paul notes in Rom 11), then we have just people in DROVES well before the Christ event on the cross. Are these Jews justified by their own works? Heavens no, Paul would say... Paul's "gospel" is not about "faith without works". It is the inclusion of the Gentiles into the promise.

And JLB is correct, we (Gentiles) are grafted onto the promises made to Abraham, along with the pre-existing Jews who were "the just walking in faith"...

Regards
 
Genesis 4 speaks about Cain and Abel offering sacrifices. Where before was that instructed or taught.

I don't understand: Where did it need to be taught, and why?

In the statement I made, I said -- when they do what the law requires, they are a law; otherwise not.
I didn't say, when they read and obeyed the law ... ? if that's what you are after ?

The very fact that they did it -- and God responded to them -- is what gives it the scope of Law; For God looked with FAVOR on Abel's sacrifice. God need not have looked with favor on any sacrifice at all. So, rather than a law being "taught" before that time, the events of Cain and Abel point to the law being "discovered" or one that is natural being "affirmed." (It may have been discovered by Adam and taught to the children... But we're not told that.)

I don't know if you have children, Ryan, but in my experience I give my children good things to eat. And the child intrinsically notices that I "hand" them a strawberry, or an ice-cream bar. Then something surprising happens, the child will lift up the strawberry or ice cream bar back to me, or possibly go to their mother; repeating the same action of my giving it to them to one of us. It's an "offering", but the child doesn't actually wish to give it up (they are emotionally torn by the action). The *action* itself, though, is an acknowledgement on their part of a consciousness of where this "good" thing came from.

Notably; the act doesn't happen when they are given something they don't like.

Now, in the Law there is this thing that Moses Codifies:
Exodu 29:26 And thou shalt take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration, and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD: and it shall be thy part.
Exodu 29:27 And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:
Exodu 29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.

My children, although not Jews, automatically perform the same basic idea; albeit "imperfectly" if the Law of Moses is taken to be the "standard." ; They do something that the law requires;

Where does this "law" come from ? It comes from a tradition based on reason, the simple reason of a child.
That's where the "law" of Moses is really codifying what is in Genesis; not creating a new law.
OTOH: Pagans can read the law of Moses, and though -- not part of the covenant -- emulate those laws.
In the diaspora, the laws of the Jews were mingled with the nations around them. Israel was "FORCED" to be a *dim* light to the nations even in their shame.

God warns Cain to control himself as sin is crouching at the door. What were all the definitions of sin before that?
Ryan, I fail to see what this has to do with any of my discussion.
I said "when they do what the law requires" -- I never said "when they read the law" ...
To be sure, there were definitions -- based on example, not statutes; which I have stated many times before in the thread.

There was also at least one statute: Genes 2:16-17

And the very passage you are citing, is a definition of a sin. The Hebrew, there, as far as I am concerned is missing a word or two/ or is obscure to the point of uninterpretable;
The particular rendering you are giving, happens to be the one a translator of the Catholic Church, Jerome, gave it -- and his translation is based on a theological interpolation; for the text simply was too obscure -- but he had to translate *something* there.

In the Greek, the passage can be read like this:
Genes 4:7
ουκ εαν ορθως προσ-ενεγκ-ης
not [determined]-if [you] rightly offered-before

ορθως δε μη διελ-ης η-μαρτ-ες
rightly but not [you]cut-before [you]wandered(impf)

The idea expressed is roughly:
if you didn't rightly cut, then you didn't rightly offer. You sinned (wandered).

There is some innuendo that I am perhaps not translating but I think the translation sufficient to make my point; and now I would like you to consider the Hebrew translation you have; The only thing really missing in your version is the definition of "sin". Here in the Greek the definition is clear ... sinning (wandering, missing the target ) is an unsteady knife.

The innuendo I haven't translated (gut reaction) related to "sin knocking at the door" is associated with things like: The tent door is where the passover blood was applied, and is a metaphor/sign of the human body -- these human tabernacles/tents of flesh... etc.) but that's a long discussion not appropriate here... I only want to suggest further meditation/study.

Can we assume God gave verbal, or a written account of what sin was passed down from generation to generation?
There is very credible historical evidence that Genesis was handed down orally, and later written down.
There are accounts, for example the "Enuma Elish" which has the elements of Genesis ( written down for a different purpose, and with political spin ) showing a philosophical debate between Israel and Babylon over their historical understanding of the law. Two different viewpoints showing evidence of copying something more ancient.

I give the following translation as an example, and note: the translation is interpolated and inaccurate in places -- I checked it some years ago.
Do not attempt to use it as is, as an interpretive text; it's just an example.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

One element of importance: It is written down on seven tablets. eg: the same as the number of "days" in the Genesis creation account? etc.
There are also other texts which record the flood of Noe; and the *same* sacrificial rites, clean/unclean, the smoke rising to God. etc.

The differences from Genesis show these other nations had different concerns in their preservation of the stories; but the similarities, even in people's names, betray the fact that they have a common origin. An oral tradition.

They were all saved by their faith, but you see their righteous actions at work. They heeded and responded to God's instructions at that time and were obedient. That is what Law means. It means God's instructions, not a set of judicial and criminal terminology that puts a negative connotation to it. Maybe I'll start quoting from the CJB. God gave Sinai at that particular time for a particular people in his infinite wisdom for a particular purpose.
Do you see what I am saying, somehow, in opposition to something you are saying? I'm trying to figure out how your last paragraph, here, relates to the thesis: "They are a law unto themselves when they do as the law requires." ; where I am stipulating that the "law" of Moses (not Genesis) is the particular emphasis of the sentence in Romans 2:14. There is a mixture of things explicit in the law, some of which are found in Genesis -- but without the guidance of the Law of Moses.

It may be that Drew, or others, will attempt to use this to make a distinction of "laws added to multiply sin"; but I'm undecided on that; for I think by now you realize I don't shallowly interpret Paul and many obstacles remain before his "wisdom" 2Peter 3:15 can be exhausted; Shallow interpretation is simply not going to work.
 
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Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

God added ceremonial laws because of disobedience.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now, if transgression was the problem, why add more law that equaled more transgression? The Laws added were the ceremonial laws that pointed to Christ...

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what you are saying is that if I have faith, my actions are of no consequence? Either it is wrong to murder or it is not. Either it is wrong to commit adultery or it is not. God is not some liberal judge that thinks the best way to solve a sin problem is to do away with the law that defines sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul plainly shows here that the tenth Commandment is still in force. The way to solve a sin problem is to send His Son who bore the curse (the death penalty) of the Law in our stead, but He doesn't say, "OK, go out and do anything you want, I paid the penalty for you and will keep paying it for as long as you want to do anything your carnal heart desires." Rather, He said go and quit sinning...

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Most people read this as if the last part of verse 11 isn't really there, they read it like this: "Neither do I condemn thee: go."

We are admonished to repent...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter was still of the notion that we need to repent (quit sinning) and our sins would be remitted by Christ's sacrifice.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Notice what is blotted out? The Law? Nope, our sins are blotted out.
:thumbsup

Jethro,

What do you think about this?

The idea that the Mosaic Law has passed away is based upon IT having legal binding force upon men (Jews/Christians). The principles of how to please God remain - such as love neighbors. They are found within the Mosaic Law, but did not originate there. Thus, if one says that the Mosaic Law has passed away, isn't it similar to saying that the Magna Carta has passed away, although we as Americans are bound to the Constitution, which takes up principles found within the Magna Carta? Although the Magna Carta has "passed away", the principles found within it are still binding within the new "Law".

To the Jew, the Mosaic Law WAS the Wisdom of God codified. On a cosmic scale. Christians are saying that Jesus Christ replaces that ideal - in the flesh - the pre-existing Word. Of course, the means of pleasing God, the principles of Torah, have not also passed away, since Christ taught that these principles remain and have ALWAYS been present in HIMSELF - and following those principles fulfill the principles of the Mosaic Law.

Thoughts?

Regards
 
Where did it need to be taught, and why?

In the statement I made, I said -- when they do what the law requires, they are a law; otherwise not.
I didn't say, when they read and obeyed the law ... that's not the point.

In the second place, the very fact that they did it -- and God responded to them -- is what gives it the scope of Law; For God looked with FAVOR on Abel's sacrifice. God need not have looked with favor on any sacrifice at all. So, rather that a law being "taught" before that time, the events of Cain and Abel point to the law being "discovered" or one that is natural being "affirmed."

I don't know if you have children, Ryan, but in my experience I give my children good things to eat. And the child intrinsically notices that I "hand" them a strawberry, or an ice-cream bar. Then something surprising happens, the child will lift up the strawberry or ice cream bar back to me, or over to their mother; repeating the same action of my giving it to them. It's an "offering", but they don't actually wish to give it up. The *action* itself, though, is an acknowledgement on their part of a consciousness of where this "good" thing came from.

Notably; the act doesn't happen when they are given something they don't like.

Now, in the Law there is this thing that Moses Codifies:
Exodu 29:26 And thou shalt take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration, and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD: and it shall be thy part.
Exodu 29:27 And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:
Exodu 29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.

My children, although not Jews, automatically perform the same basic idea; albeit "imperfectly" if the Law of Moses is taken to be the "standard."
Where does this "law" come from ? It comes from a tradition based on reason, the simple reason of a child.



Ryan, I fail to see what this has to do with any of my discussion.
I said "when they do what the law requires" -- I never said "when they read the law" ...
To be sure, there were definitions -- based on example, not statutes; which I have stated many times before in the thread.

There was also at least one statute: Genes 2:16-17

And the very passage you are citing, is a definition of a sin. The Hebrew, there, as far as I am concerned is corrupt / obscure to the point of uninterpretable; The particular rendering you are giving, happens to be the one a translator of the Catholic Church, Jerome, gave it.
In the Greek, the passage can be read like this:

Genes 4:7
ουκ εαν ορθως προσ-ενεγκ-ης
not [determined]-if [you] rightly offered-before

ορθως δε μη διελ-ης η-μαρτ-ες
rightly but not [you]cut-before [you]wandered(impf)

The idea expressed is roughly:
if you didn't rightly cut, then you didn't rightly offer. You sinned (wandered).

There is some inuendo that I am perhaps not translating; and interpretations that would later show up in the law of Moses, proper; but I think the translation sufficient to make my point --> I would point you to the Hebrew translation you have -- and point out that the only thing really missing in your version is the definition of "sin". Here the definition is clear ... sinning (wandering, missing the target ) is an unsteady knife.

The inuendo I haven't translated is very strongly related to "sin knocking at the door" (for the tent door is where the passover blood was applied, and is a sign of the human body -- these tabernacles/tents of flesh... etc.) but that's a long discussion not appropriate here.



There is very credible historical evidence that Genesis was handed down orally, and later written down.
There are accounts, for example the "Enuma Elish" which has the elements of Genesis ( written down for a different purpose, and with political spin ) showing a philosophical debate between Israel and Babylon over their historical understanding of the law. Two different viewpoints showing evidence of copying something more ancient.

I give the following translation as an example, and note: the translation is interpolated and inaccurate in places -- I checked it some years ago.
Do not attempt to use it as is, as an interpretive text; it's just an example.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

One element of importance: It is written down on seven tablets. eg: the same as the number of "days" in the Genesis creation account? etc.
There are also other texts which record the flood of Noe; and the *same* sacrificial rites, clean/unclean, the smoke rising to God. etc.

The differences from Genesis show these other nations had different concerns in their preservation of the stories; but the similarities, even in people's names, betray the fact that they have a common origin. An oral tradition.

They were all saved by their faith, but you see their righteous actions at work. They heeded and responded to God's instructions at that time and were obedient. That is what Law means. It means God's instructions, not a set of judicial and criminal terminology that puts a negative connotation to it. Maybe I'll start quoting from the CJB. God gave Sinai at that particular time for a particular people in his infinite wisdom for a particular purpose.

Do you see what I am saying, somehow, in opposition to something you are saying? I'm trying to figure out how your last paragraph, here, relates to the thesis: "They are a law unto themselves when they do as the law requires." ; where I am stipulating that the "law" of Moses (not Genesis) is the particular emphasis of the sentence in Romans 2:14. There is a mixture of things explicit in the law, some of which are found in Genesis -- but without the guidance of the Law of Moses.

Nice - I agree with your last paragraph - how can Romans 2:14 refer to the Mosaic Law, since pagans did not have it? Clearly, the Law Paul is talking about there is what you and I call "Natural Law". An eternal and objective law of God based upon what is pleasing to Him on a more generic scale accessible to all men via their conscience.

Regards
 
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

God added ceremonial laws because of disobedience.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now, if transgression was the problem, why add more law that equaled more transgression? The Laws added were the ceremonial laws that pointed to Christ...

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what you are saying is that if I have faith, my actions are of no consequence? Either it is wrong to murder or it is not. Either it is wrong to commit adultery or it is not. God is not some liberal judge that thinks the best way to solve a sin problem is to do away with the law that defines sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul plainly shows here that the tenth Commandment is still in force. The way to solve a sin problem is to send His Son who bore the curse (the death penalty) of the Law in our stead, but He doesn't say, "OK, go out and do anything you want, I paid the penalty for you and will keep paying it for as long as you want to do anything your carnal heart desires." Rather, He said go and quit sinning...

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Most people read this as if the last part of verse 11 isn't really there, they read it like this: "Neither do I condemn thee: go."

We are admonished to repent...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter was still of the notion that we need to repent (quit sinning) and our sins would be remitted by Christ's sacrifice.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Notice what is blotted out? The Law? Nope, our sins are blotted out.
:thumbsup

Jethro,

What do you think about this?



The idea that the Mosaic Law has passed away is based upon IT having legal binding force upon men (Jews/Christians). The principles of how to please God remain - such as love neighbors. They are found within the Mosaic Law, but did not originate there. Thus, if one says that the Mosaic Law has passed away, isn't it similar to saying that the Magna Carta has passed away, although we as Americans are bound to the Constitution, which takes up principles found within the Magna Carta? Although the Magna Carta has "passed away", the principles found within it are still binding within the new "Law".

To the Jew, the Mosaic Law WAS the Wisdom of God codified. On a cosmic scale. Christians are saying that Jesus Christ replaces that ideal - in the flesh - the pre-existing Word. Of course, the means of pleasing God, the principles of Torah, have not also passed away, since Christ taught that these principles remain and have ALWAYS been present in HIMSELF - and following those principles fulfill the principles of the Mosaic Law.

Thoughts?

Regards

:thumbsup
 
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. 12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? 17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. 18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:9-26


... But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Jesus Fulfilled the Law! Jesus was born under the Law.

Jesus did not keep the Law of Moses.

The Law was for the lawless.

What was the purpose of the Law?

It was set up with a priesthood and sacrifices and special laws.

One of which was to stone an adulteress to death!

Jesus was a Priest after the order of Melchizedek!

He did not need to keep the law of Moses, He was, Is and forever will be sinless!

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions,till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

What law did Jesus transgress?

Those that try and use Hebrew language and wear Hebrew costumes and try and learn Hebrew so the can try and keep the law of Moses are walking in deception.

Whether the excuse is for salvation or because that is what they believe the Apostles did or if they believe Jesus kept the law of Moses, it's bondage!


... how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?


JLB
 
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