When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[francisdesales]

Of course you reject basic calvinist doctrine! your a catholic.
So whats new it that?

Eh? You are the one who claimed I was preaching Calvinistic doctrine when I talked about election and predestination. The issue I brought up is that election is a Pauline teaching. Since you apparently haven't read Romans 9-11, you immediately said that election was not biblical...

My doctrines are those of Luther and Calvin in very large part. Of course you reject them! You would have to deny your own religion.

Well, you better go back to the Institutes and read up, since Jean Calvin is basing his "theories" upon his interpretations of Sacred Scriptures (among other things). In other words, they are based on Scriptures, which you denied in your post...

Now that no man is justified before God by the law is EVIDENT. Luther seen this, Calvin seen this, any honest man can see this. IT IS EVIDENT.

Yawn... Wake me up when you have something to say that you haven't repeated 100 times and I have already agreed.

Would you like me to repeat that Jesus is God 100 times and then whine and complain that you don't believe it, no matter what YOU said???

That is what you are doing here. It is annoying and it is false witness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law of Moses has vanished away.

Various laws concerning temple, priest, and sacrifice have 'disappeared' from the law, meaning they no longer HAVE to be literally kept in a recurring cycle commanded by Moses. They weren't abolished. Christ did not come to do that. They were laid aside as no longer needed to do what faith in Christ now does more completely and forever. What those laws sought to accomplish for the people of God are satisfactorily satisfied through faith in Christ, the NEW way to relate to God and fulfill the requirements of the law.

Why do you desire to satisfy the weak and beggarly elements, and to be in bondage.

'Do not murder' is NOT a weak and beggarly element! And because of faith I am indeed a slave to righteousness, the righteousness spoken about in the Law, and then some. When I remember that, that is when I have victory over the sin the Law prohibits.

You are now sons of God. Show me in the law of Moses that provides for this.

Under the Law you were a slave, now you are a son.

Please read Galatians 4.

JLB

I'm not enslaved by a system of law--a way of relating to and serving God. But I am still obligated to the requirements of the law. Some literally, some not, but which still get fulfilled/kept/satisfied through my faith in Christ.

Faith has made me a true son of God. What that means is I now uphold and serve the commands of my Father through that faith (the NEW way to do that) not discard them as you and others say I must do to be a son of God. That doesn't even make sense.

Sees ya all at lunch.

 

[JLB]

Various laws concerning temple, priest, and sacrifice have 'disappeared' from the law, meaning they no longer HAVE to be literally kept in a recurring cycle commanded by Moses. They weren't abolished. Christ did not come to do that. They were laid aside as no longer needed to do what faith in Christ now does more completely and forever. What those laws sought to accomplish for the people of God are satisfactorily satisfied through faith in Christ, the NEW way to relate to God and fulfill the requirements of the law.

The word says as you well know they were replaced by the New Covenant.

'Do not murder' is NOT a weak and beggarly element! And because of faith I am indeed a slave to righteousness, the righteousness spoken about in the Law, and then some. When I remember that, that is when I have victory over the sin the Law prohibits.

There is nothing fleshly or weak about God's Eternal Law.

'm not enslaved by a system of law--a way of relating to and serving God. But I am still obligated to the requirements of the law. Some literally, some not, but which still get fulfilled/kept/satisfied through my faith in Christ.

You are if you try to return to the Law of Moses, as Ryan and those who call themselves Messianic Judaism have.

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Trying to keep Jewish feasts and wear garments that are not mixed and observing Jewish Sabbath rules as well as many other things are what I am referring to.

Refraining from eating certain foods.

speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:2-3

This is what they teach believers in Christ to do.

Ask Ryan if this is what he does.

The Law of the Lord is perfect, which is from the beginning.

The Law of Moses is temporary.

Faith has made me a true son of God. What that means is I now uphold and serve the commands of my Father through that faith (the NEW way to do that) not discard them as you and others say I must do to be a son of God. That doesn't even make sense.

I don't discard anything. I live my life as unto God everyday, not just special days.

I eat Pork. I don't need a written law from Moses to tell me not to drink blood.

I have no desire to eat snails, however if I have to to survive I will.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Go to Psalms 119 ministries or other like them and see for yourself.

http://www.testeverything.net/home


JLB

 

[Drew]

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Paul plainly shows here that the tenth Commandment is still in force. The way to solve a sin problem is to send His Son who bore the curse (the death penalty) of the Law in our stead, but He doesn't say, "OK, go out and do anything you want, I paid the penalty for you and will keep paying it for as long as you want to do anything your carnal heart desires." Rather, He said go and quit sinning...

I disagree. Show me where in this text Paul says the 10th commandment is still in force.

There is a point that keeps needing to be made. We do not a law - some formalized expression - to tell us not to steal.

Why not? Paul has just told us in the very chapter from which you quoted:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

No one is saying that its OK to steal. We are merely echoing Paul: The Spirit replaces the Law as the informing source for how we are to act.

 

[John 8:32]

The Law of Moses has vanished away.

Various laws concerning temple, priest, and sacrifice have 'disappeared' from the law, meaning they no longer HAVE to be literally kept in a recurring cycle commanded by Moses. They weren't abolished. Christ did not come to do that. They were laid aside as no longer needed to do what faith in Christ now does more completely and forever. What those laws sought to accomplish for the people of God are satisfactorily satisfied through faith in Christ, the NEW way to relate to God and fulfill the requirements of the law.

Here is a perfect example of Christ fulfilling the Law. The Law of sacrifices was not done away, Christ fulfilled it and therefore there is no need for animal sacrifices...

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Law was not done away, certain of the Law was changed...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Is there a need to change the prohibition against murder under the New Covenant? Actually even this Law was changed...

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Still a sin to murder, still a capital offense...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But the stakes are much higher: eternal death.

Why do you desire to satisfy the weak and beggarly elements, and to be in bondage.

'Do not murder' is NOT a weak and beggarly element! And because of faith I am indeed a slave to righteousness, the righteousness spoken about in the Law, and then some. When I remember that, that is when I have victory over the sin the Law prohibits.

In fact, let's read that passage...

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Since when are the Ten Commandments...

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

called elements of the world?

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

What weak and beggarly elements are Paul speaking of here? Refer back to verse 3...

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Not the Ten Commandments written with the finger of God.

You are now sons of God. Show me in the law of Moses that provides for this.

Under the Law you were a slave, now you are a son.

Please read Galatians 4.

JLB

I have read it. I have even read it in the context of Gal 3 where the law of sacrifices is called a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. I have considered that Paul here was dealing with Gnosticim. I have read it in the context of the book of Hebrews...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come,(The shadow is explained in this very verse) and not the very image of the things(Christ was the very fulfillment of the sacrifices that were being performed), can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.(A very bloody remembrance that sin requires blood, the lesson the schoolmaster was teaching.)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.(And here we find why it was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, the perfect sacrifice)
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.(They could not take away sin nor could they perfect the people)
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (Take away what? An Old Covenant that did not promise life and replaced it with a New Covenant that made eternal life possible)

I'm not enslaved by a system of law--a way of relating to and serving God. But I am still obligated to the requirements of the law. Some literally, some not, but which still get fulfilled/kept/satisfied through my faith in Christ.

Faith has made me a true son of God. What that means is I now uphold and serve the commands of my Father through that faith (the NEW way to do that) not discard them as you and others say I must do to be a son of God. That doesn't even make sense.

Sees ya all at lunch.

This is why it is called...

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[Drew]

But anyway, assuming you mean literally keep, we can start here in Deuteronomy 5:

Hi. I have not read many of your posts, so perhaps you have already explained what I am about to ask. If so, please let me know.

Here is something that always puzzles me: If a person believes that the Law of Moses is still in force, why is that person not obligated to keep all 613 commandments and ordnances that make up the law? Do you believe you are supposed to keep all 613 elements? If not, on precisely what Biblical basis do you decide that certain laws do not need to be followed "literally" (to use your own words)?

 

[Drew]

If so, the Mosaic Law can be seen as passed away as a legally binding contract/covenant. But the principles within the Mosaic Law have been taken up in the Law of Christ.

I think I agree. I often bemoan the seeming fact that some people cannot (or, worse, simply will not) understand the concept that we do not necessarily require an encoded system of formal laws to guide our behaviour. Thus, you will occasionally see the very odd argument that if the Law of Moses (which includes the 10 commandments) has "passed away", we are free to engage in all sorts of adulterous and larcenous mayhem.

What an odd notion. When I walk down the street and see a little puppy blocking my path, do I boot it violently out of my way? Of course not! Did I make this decision because of some "rule" about not kicking puppies?

I should certainly hope not! I would like to think that, while I am not a paragon of virtue, I have at least enough of the Spirit of God in me to recognize, without needing to consult a rule-book, that to kick an innocent puppy is not something God would approve of.

 

[Sparkey]

So, Drew? Were you born that way? Were you born with godliness in you so that your parents have no stories about bad boy Drew?

The point that I'd like to make is that God deals with all of His children with regard to where they are and what they need. Maybe somebody does need a rule about kicking puppies. Would it be wrong for God to quicken the scripture, "Thou shalt not kicketh the puppyeth" to the heart and confirm it with the more sure word of the Bible when there is need? That is not to say that you're incorrect in your position but only to say that God (and only He) considers all things. We want to be like Him, right? I do tend to agree with you about these matters but some times there are reservations while making pronouncements in broad and general categories especially when it comes down to specifics like puppy kicking and such. Your point is well made and I do not ignore the thrust of your intent, but just wanted to offer a counter-point to the concept.

 

[John 8:32]

But anyway, assuming you mean literally keep, we can start here in Deuteronomy 5:

Hi. I have not read many of your posts, so perhaps you have already explained what I am about to ask. If so, please let me know.

Here is something that always puzzles me: If a person believes that the Law of Moses is still in force, why is that person not obligated to keep all 613 commandments and ordnances that make up the law? Do you believe you are supposed to keep all 613 elements? If not, on precisely what Biblical basis do you decide that certain laws do not need to be followed "literally" (to use your own words)?

Not speaking for JB, but certain of those require a Temple to keep. Certain are done in a spiritual manner. Sacrifices today are not animal sacrifices, Christ has fulfilled that role and then there is this...

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

And explain to me what is wrong with keeping the following...

Lev 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
Lev 15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
Lev 15:4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.
Lev 15:5 And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:6 And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:7 And he that toucheth the flesh of him that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:8 And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean; then he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:9 And what saddle soever he rideth upon that hath the issue shall be unclean.
Lev 15:10 And whosoever toucheth any thing that was under him shall be unclean until the even: and he that beareth any of those things shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:11 And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:12 And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water.
Lev 15:13 And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean.

Or shall we just wallow in filth?

How about inbreeding...

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
Lev 18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
Lev 18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
Lev 18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
Lev 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

I guess that depends on whether you are form the South or not.

Let 'em eat cake?

Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
Lev 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

I sure wish society would follow a few of these "awful, terrible, burdensome" laws...

Lev 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
Lev 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 19:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
Lev 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

this one could surely imporve family relations...

Lev 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

What do we do with the elderly today...

Lev 19:32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Aw, let's just kick 'em to the curb.

There are certain of those laws that still should be kept today. And if we were to diligently keep these laws and statutes and judgments...

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
Lev 26:4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
Lev 26:5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
Lev 26:6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
Lev 26:10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Oh the burden of obeying God.

 

[JLB]

The Law was not done away, certain of the Law was changed...

Yes, Changed. That word would exchanged!

Taken out of the way.

JLB

 

[John 8:32]

The Law was not done away, certain of the Law was changed...

Yes, Changed. That word would exchanged!

Taken out of the way.

JLB

Perhaps if you ask, considering your sizable influence, Christ (the Word, the Logos) would rewrite it to suit you.

 

[Sparkey]

Not trying to speak for Drew here but what I've heard said is that these principles are taught in a very intimate and life changing manner from the Holy Spirit who is with us and in us. That the "law" as well as other parts of the Word of God is truly part of what God promised when He said, "And they shall be my people and I shall be their God." Such things are spoken more intimately of in the book of Hosea where God promises,

"And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me "Ishi" and shall call me no more "Baali". For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name."​

The Lord spoke here of alluring her. This word (in the Hebrew) includes a primitive root that means to "open and make roomy" as well as to make simple. The sense behind the words 'Ishi' and 'Baali' means she shall call me 'husband' and no longer 'lord commander,' for we will understand the intent of our Master and be called friend and even more than friend to Him who is our God. Not much need for rules such as 'pay bills on a timely manner' to be harped on in such a relationship as the one we are promised, is there?

 

[JLB]

The Law was not done away, certain of the Law was changed...

Yes, Changed. That word would exchanged!

Taken out of the way.

JLB

Perhaps if you ask, considering your sizable influence, Christ (the Word, the Logos) would rewrite it to suit you.

I asked. He wants to know WHY do you want to return to the Law of Moses ?


9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

What part of this scripture do you have trouble understanding?


He takes away the first... Maybe you don't know who He is?


He takes away the first... Maybe you don't understand what was taken away?



He takes away the first... Maybe you don;t understand the context of this passage and therefore don't understand what the first refers to.


Or could you show us where the Law of Moses directs the Priest to Sacrifice a man for the sins of the people rather than animals.


JLB

 

[Drew]

So, Drew? Were you born that way? Were you born with godliness in you so that your parents have no stories about bad boy Drew? The point that I'd like to make is that God deals with all of His children with regard to where they are and what they need. Maybe somebody does need a rule about kicking puppies.

I do not see how such a position can stand Biblically.

Do you agree that we are given the Spirit when we are converted? Yes or no, please.

If yes, do you really believe that this Spirit would not "prick your conscience" to not kick the puppy? Do you believe that God's Spirit is unconcerned about the fate of puppies? If so, please explain.

As for my status before conversion: I can agree that a person without the Spirit may need "law" to guide them. But not the Law of Moses! That law has clearly been abolished, as per many statements and arguments by Paul. And by actions of Jesus, too.

 

[Sparkey]

Drew? We both know that we're not talking puppies here. We are speaking about a loving God who has made provision for all his children. Some (and I dare say most) may not understand the principles of God in the same manner you do today when they are first saved. Has this not been your experience too? Or has that escaped your notice. I can not believe that to be the case.

For instance, instead of speaking about puppies, let's turn our consideration to our tongues and the need to master them. Yes, when I speak and especially when I speak without due consideration or when I speak vehemently in defense of a certain teaching or doctrine, I may lose sight of the Purpose that God had in mind when He spoke. I may even agree with what that Statesman/Prophet who was comfortable speaking to royal audiences of man said when he pronounced the curse in an official statement that took the prophetic form of a "woe," while saying, "Woe is me (for I am undone!). I am a man of unclean lips from a people of unclean lips."

So yes, I may feel the goading or the prick of the Spirit when I do misspeak myself. I also love the fact that the Word of God tells me that if a man does not bridle his tongue, his religion us of no use.

Is that a law? Let's say no, but then what does the law say about offenses given? What about unintended trespass or over stepping boundaries? If Isaiah, a statesman and a prophet's prophet who was so well spoken were to be confronted by the terror of his inability to stand in the presence of the One spoken of as "Holy, Holy, Holy..." then how may I compare? Is the law really of no use to me? What if I had an anger problem when I was saved and used to go about looking for any opportunity to fight men and not kick puppies. What if the chip on my shoulder was so large that all I wanted was a battle of comparable size to express my angst? Would it not be okay for the Lord to point me to sections of the law that dealt with His expectations for my new life and behaviors? And what if I ignored the grace that was given to me and the love and the rebuke? Would the Lord be unwilling to use the law of man to help his effort to chastise his newly forming son? Would the law (and now we're speaking of all authority and all law) have been made to be of no use whatsoever?

Or do you live in a world where gentle speaks as loudly as violence? Sadly, that has not been the path that I've found myself taking but thanks be to God for his kindness and longsuffering! He is always gentle and always mixes grace into judgment and I've never experienced anything that was not Good at His hand, but I have "kicked against the pricks" in the past and would dare say, so have you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...could you show us where the Law of Moses directs the Priest to Sacrifice a man for the sins of the people rather than animals.

The lawful requirement for atonement is blood.

Jesus satisfied to God's complete and total satisfaction the lawful requirement for blood

Stop thinking in terms of 'law' and start thinking in terms of 'requirements'. Then you'll begin to understand the law has not been abolished. Jesus said himself that he did not come to do that. He came to fulfill the (requirements of the) law.

If your faith does not fulfill (uphold, satisfy, keep, meet) the requirements of the law of Moses, you have a faith that can not save you. Some requirements of the law are fulfilled by the work of Christ which we apply to ourselves through faith in Christ. Other laws are fulfilled literally when we act out the new nature placed within us by our faith in Christ. Some laws are just plain set aside--not abolished--just simply non applicable and require neither spiritual or literal fulfillment because they simply don't apply to new creations in Christ (the discriminatory laws of Moses).

 

[John 8:32]

The Law was not done away, certain of the Law was changed...

Yes, Changed. That word would exchanged!

Taken out of the way.

JLB

Perhaps if you ask, considering your sizable influence, Christ (the Word, the Logos) would rewrite it to suit you.

I asked. He wants to know WHY do you want to return to the Law of Moses ?


9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

What part of this scripture do you have trouble understanding?


He takes away the first... Maybe you don't know who He is?


He takes away the first... Maybe you don't understand what was taken away?



He takes away the first... Maybe you don;t understand the context of this passage and therefore don't understand what the first refers to.


Or could you show us where the Law of Moses directs the Priest to Sacrifice a man for the sins of the people rather than animals.


JLB

I think I understand the context...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Just speculation, but I think, maybe, he was speaking of ANIMAL SACRIFICES. Whereas, you seem to think he was speaking of the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses as a whole.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is something that always puzzles me: If a person believes that the Law of Moses is still in force, why is that person not obligated to keep all 613 commandments and ordnances that make up the law? Do you believe you are supposed to keep all 613 elements? If not, on precisely what Biblical basis do you decide that certain laws do not need to be followed "literally" (to use your own words)?

My last post to JLB, #938, will help you understand.

Some laws govern a system of required worship that is no longer needed. Faith in Christ now does what that old system sought to do, so that old covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice is no longer needed--not abolished as we understand that, just not needed anymore--set aside. This is what Hebrews is all about. The fundamental requirements of those laws get met and satisfied through our faith in Christ's work to do what those laws sought to do but couldn't do. These are the bulk of the laws that laws that we like to say get fulfilled 'spiritually'.

Some laws govern our interpersonal relationships. These obviously remain to be literally fulfilled by our faith in Christ. An example of an exception would be the law of the oxen. It is a requirement of law that represents a higher, but still literal requirement of God, and is not so much about the literal requirement of the law itself, but about how to take care of the leadership in the church.

Then there are the discriminatory laws that simply don't apply to new creations in Christ brought near to God through faith in Christ where faith tears down any and all earthly distinction between the people of God.

The laws of cleanliness and separation are closely connected to the laws of worship because cleanliness was the condition for fellowship with God and active participation in, and manifest benefit of, the covenant. IMO, these represent higher spiritual truths about staying clean and eligible for manifest fellowship with God and enjoying the benefits of the covenant. So these, also, are laws that get fulfilled in accordance with the higher spiritual truths they represent.

 

[JLB]

...could you show us where the Law of Moses directs the Priest to Sacrifice a man for the sins of the people rather than animals.

The lawful requirement for atonement is blood.

Jesus satisfied to God's complete and total satisfaction the lawful requirement for blood

Stop thinking in terms of 'law' and start thinking in terms of 'requirements'. Then you'll begin to understand the law has not been abolished. Jesus said himself that he did not come to do that. He came to fulfill the (requirements of the) law.

If your faith does not fulfill (uphold, satisfy, keep, meet) the requirements of the law of Moses, you have a faith that can not save you. Some requirements of the law are fulfilled by the work of Christ which we apply to ourselves through faith in Christ. Other laws are fulfilled literally when we act out the new nature placed within us by our faith in Christ. Some laws are just plain set aside--not abolished--just simply non applicable and require neither spiritual or literal fulfillment because they simply don't apply to new creations in Christ (the discriminatory laws of Moses).

I appreciate much of what you write.

I will ask as specific set of questions, that require specific answers.

We don't get to decide what God does in regard to His Laws.

It is either one or the other. That is the vein of the OP.

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

What part of this scripture do you have trouble understanding?

• He takes away the first... Maybe you don't know who He is?

Do you agree that God takes away the first. Yes or No.

• He takes away the first... Maybe you don't understand what was taken away?

Do you agree God takes away the first. Yes or No?

• He takes away the first... Maybe you don;t understand the context of this passage and therefore don't understand what the first refers to.

Do you agree that God takes away the first. Yes or No?

JLB

 

[francisdesales]

If so, the Mosaic Law can be seen as passed away as a legally binding contract/covenant. But the principles within the Mosaic Law have been taken up in the Law of Christ.

I think I agree. I often bemoan the seeming fact that some people cannot (or, worse, simply will not) understand the concept that we do not necessarily require an encoded system of formal laws to guide our behaviour. Thus, you will occasionally see the very odd argument that if the Law of Moses (which includes the 10 commandments) has "passed away", we are free to engage in all sorts of adulterous and larcenous mayhem.

What an odd notion. When I walk down the street and see a little puppy blocking my path, do I boot it violently out of my way? Of course not! Did I make this decision because of some "rule" about not kicking puppies?

I should certainly hope not! I would like to think that, while I am not a paragon of virtue, I have at least enough of the Spirit of God in me to recognize, without needing to consult a rule-book, that to kick an innocent puppy is not something God would approve of.

Western society is used to laws governing ethics.

Some believe that that having an abortion is OK because the government allows it by law...

people need the nanny state to tell them right from wrong.

Oh sorry, I forgot I was not on a political forum anymore!