When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Drew]

I don't try to explain such things in an environment that may turn hostile like the Wilderness area of our forum also known as Apologetics and Theology because such things may only be explained in peaceful enjoyment of the Word of God where we all strive to live and work together.

With all respect, you appear to be evading the question. You are, of course, free to do this. But I suggest that if you are telling us that God has provided "law" to humanity throughout all history, you need to engage it.

And I do not see how the Romans 5 text can be read without concluding that Paul, at least, believes that there has been a time - the time from Adam to Moses - when God did provide "law" to human beings.

 

[Drew]

What does "end" and the usage for in this verse mean. The Greek is "telos" and yes it has been rendered as end, but is more accurately used as "goal" for this passage.

Maybe so, but you still have a problem. I suggest that the statement "Christ is the goal of the Law....strongly implies, especially in the broader context (and I have yet to get into that) that it is a goal that has been achieved.

And when the goal is achieved, the Law is no longer needed.

If I get on a plane and my "goal" is to travel to Paris, do I keep flying once the goal has been reached? No, I do not.

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

If it was end, then let's just tear out Paul and this passage:

Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

I'm not overly fond of inconsistencies in the bible. If you are fine with that. So be it.

Fair point. I will get to this later.

 

[Ryan]

What does "end" and the usage for in this verse mean. The Greek is "telos" and yes it has been rendered as end, but is more accurately used as "goal" for this passage.

Maybe so, but you still have a problem. I suggest that the statement "Christ is the goal of the Law....strongly implies, especially in the broader context (and I have yet to get into that) that it is a goal that has been achieved.

And when the goal is achieved, the Law is no longer needed.

If I get on a plane and my "goal" is to travel to Paris, do I keep flying once the goal has been reached? No, I do not.

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

If it was end, then let's just tear out Paul and this passage:

Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

I'm not overly fond of inconsistencies in the bible. If you are fine with that. So be it.

Fair point. I will get to this later.

Romans 10:1-5

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

10 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them

 

[JLB]

You have absolutely what Messianic Judaism teaches obviously. Allenwynne had a great comment on another thread that maybe those who go to church on Sundays try a service on a Saturday, and vice versa. And FYI, I have also gone to church on Sundays in the not so distant past. But this isn't about Messianics, so why do you keep bringing it up?

I don't go to church at all. Aren't we supposed to be the church, rather that go to church?

 

[JLB]

Romans 10:1-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 10 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them

It doesn't matter what version you use, The outcome is the same - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness!

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Now, if you don't believe that then you probably need to try and keep the Law of Moses.

Because the word says - be it unto you according to your faith!

and again - Blessed is the man who doesn't condemn himself it what he approves.

I'm blessed, cause I approve of B-B-Que pulled pork sandwiches.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

 

[Ryan]

Romans 10:1-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 10 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them

It doesn't matter what version you use, The outcome is the same - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness!

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Now, if you don't believe that then you probably need to try and keep the Law of Moses.

Because the word says - be it unto you according to your faith!

and again - Blessed is the man who doesn't condemn himself it what he approves.

I'm blessed, cause I approve of B-B-Que pulled pork sandwiches.


JLB

Put the font higher and the color brighter, and eventually you say it enough times, it will become true. The few verses you quote, ripped out of context, does not assert your position when these passages have been explained. And 119 Ministries is one of the better sites out there. They are true Bereans.

 

[Ryan]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

Galatians 4:9-10 is solely about the Galatians not returning paganism. Being in bondage to observing the Sabbath? Wow.

 

[francisdesales]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

JLB,

I think you are misunderstanding Drew, he is pretty much stating what you are.

Of course, Drew is quite capable of speaking for himself...

Regards

 

[JLB]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

JLB,

I think you are misunderstanding Drew, he is pretty much stating what you are.

Of course, Drew is quite capable of speaking for himself...

Regards

Sorry,

My bad. I thought I was respond to someone else.

JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

My bad. I thought I was respond to someone else.

I also wonder who has told others to "observe days... and don't eat this, or don't touch that"?? I've not heard any say or teach such things. It could be my ear but is that really what you hear? There are many "voices" and many posts in this 51 page thread. Sometimes I too lose track.

 

[About the Son of God]

Nice - I agree with your last paragraph - how can Romans 2:14 refer to the Mosaic Law, since pagans did not have it? Clearly, the Law Paul is talking about there is what you and I call "Natural Law". An eternal and objective law of God based upon what is pleasing to Him on a more generic scale accessible to all men via their conscience.

Regards

To me the law written on the hearts of those who don't possess the literal written law is the requirements of the law that all men know through conscience and nature.

But, I'm pretty sure Romans 2:14 is indirectly (but *profoundly* ) talking about the law of Moses when he makes the remark. For the law of Moses is a product of legal argumentation coming from Genesis and the Fathers (with a few concessions).

But, let's consider a test case: a dog has a law inscribed in it (brute beast law) that is "natural". And a dog, being the animal it is, sometimes considers a human leg to be a sexual target. Which is "natural" in the sense of that's what some breeds do instinctively... (and very annoyingly.)

It is not obvious, then, that all "non-hetersexual or homospecies(al)" disorders (and even it's definition as a disorder) is attack-able on the grounds of it being found in "nature"?

There are people who can learn depraved tendencies, of their free choice, or who were exposed to sexual violence at an early age; so it isn't as simple as all Nature or Nurture (to use the psychological terms.) But, assuredly, some people have no control over the feelings (but they do over the acts.) It's an illness in addition to a perversion in some cases.

So, when Paul talks about them "doing by nature"; I don't think he means what is inscribed in man's body by "nature"; or raw emotion; and conscience is rationalized by pain/urge relief. (Well, this is the way God MADE me, so it's natural and not wrong. -- some sufferers will claim.)

But, God says of the promise "I WILL inscribe my law into their hearts.", (Hebrews 8:10 ἐπιγράψω future) by which we discover that they aren't there (completely) now; or else he need not do the work of inscribing them. ( John 6:29 This is the work of God, that you believe. )

Hence, I think God was always involved in inscribing them; one man at a time.

Some men will naturally do things, others naturally do the opposite; it's biological wiring.
There are even some men who have no sexual drive whatsoever; Matthew 19:12
( Ahh, that'd be nice for many men -- to see the ladies as true art, with no interference from biology. )

But notice carefully what Paul says in Romans 2:15.
"and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another."

Thoughts, is logismoi (logic). It is therefore, not memory or rhymes, or feelings [alone] but arguments which accuse or excuse.

A man can reason that the purpose of a woman having a womb, is to bear children; and the butt end of all of us -- is for excrement and sitting.

So, from these, we can *reason* to a law about their usage. Romans 1:26-28.

It is in this sense, a theology or law of the Body, which Genesis ( which means being/begetting ) is a law; it's a pre-done example for arguing what is "natural" and what isn't.

As I said, the Babylonians and other nations have records of the same stories found in Genesis; there are imperfect, twisted, but none the less -- they can argue the case of what is the purpose of the body?

Without reason, though, there is no law; for there is no judgment, nor excuse or accusation.
Therefore, law is not a purely internal object; it's one that is grasped by human intellect and achieves it's strongest expression in society -- and Christians are not exempt.

Matthew 18:20, notice, makes the point nicely with respect to Christians.
It takes two or three witnesses to establish a case; one alone can't be a judge.

Now read Matthew 18:21-31 -- The parable is about judgment.

So we see natural law in action -- for the wicked servant did nothing technically against a written "law" (to the contrary, it was legal). But he was judged by another law that the servantS internalized and witnessed to -- from an example of their "master".

Consider, then, exactly how Paul preached/taught on a "nature" basis:
Romans 1:19, Acts 17:27-29, Romans 1:25-28

Now, each nation has it's "Gods"; therefore, what is "nature" and what is "conscience" and what are "requirements" ?

I think some of this is semantics, but I bring it up as target practice. ;)

In Romans 2:14 -- Paul says "when they do by nature the things contained in the Law."
The definite article in Paul's writing generally refers to the Law of Moses, and often to the prophets/psalms.

 

[JLB]

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

My bad. I thought I was respond to someone else.

I also wonder who has told others to "observe days... and don't eat this, or don't touch that"?? I've not heard any say or teach such things. It could be my ear but is that really what you hear? There are many "voices" and many posts in this 51 page thread. Sometimes I too lose track.

Would you be willing to ask Ryan if he or His Messianic Judaism group teaches that Believers should keep the Law of Moses.

And in keeping the law if they practice keeping feast days or Sabbaths or abstaining from eating pork or not wearing clothing that is mixed such as linen and cotton...

Ask him honestly if he observes any or all of the things I mentioned, to name a few.

If he says that he never has or would never do these things or that Messianic Judaism doesn't teach these things, then I won't bring it up again.


Thanks JLB

 

[reba]

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

If a person wants to observe such he is free in the Lord to do so... If one is in Christ then he knows where his salvation, is it is in the blood of Christ, not in the Sabbath etc. Freedom in the Lord is the freedom to and the freedom from... I have the freedom to worship on Sunday or not Sabbath or not ... If I choose to celebrate the Passover as Jesus did I am free to do so...There is no better standing with the Lord for my actions ... nor am I in less standing for not doing so... IMO we cross the line when we diminish the Cross ( last time I simply said Cross I got blasted Cross meaning the WHOLE plan of Salvation)

 

[About the Son of God]

What does "end" and the usage for in this verse mean. The Greek is "telos" and yes it has been rendered as end, but is more accurately used as "goal" for this passage. If it was end, then let's just tear out Paul and this passage: Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." I'm not overly fond of inconsistencies in the bible. If you are fine with that. So be it.

Yes, you're *exactly* right.
Telos always means "purpose". It only really means "end" as a typical inference; for example:

If your purpose is to look for your missing shoes, then you will find them in the last (END) place you look for them.
or again: I always find my shoes at the END of looking for them.
The "goal" is the place where the journey *can* stop (but for stubborn people it doesn't have to, you could look for them after you find them.... *sigh*.)

Tele-phone; the Purpose is "sound"; Implies hearing something on the other "end".
Tele-vision: the Purpose is to "see"; Implies images on the other "end"
Tele-scope: the Purpose is to "look"; Implies looking for something at the other "end".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law's principles. But He does lay the groundwork to begin removing the LEGALITY that binds believers to IT. Rather than being bound to obedience to God. Jesus HIMSELF replaces the Law.

As far as legality, I understand that insofar as believers being removed from the legal condemnation of the law by the blood of Christ. That's the very gospel message. What the law could not forgive, the blood of Christ does (Acts 13:38-39). Too many take this as meaning 'no more law', an abolishement of the requirements of the law itself rather than an abolishement of the penalty of law. The debt of law got nailed, not the requirements of the law. They remain, now fulfilled through the power of faith and not the powerlessness of written words. (That's the 'way' that changed I've been talking about.)

The essential change from old to New Covenant is the SYSTEM of law, the WAY of relating to God, has 'passed away'. The requirements of the law have not changed, the WAY they get kept has changed.

"6 But now we have been released from the (authority, the way of) Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 2:6 NASB)

The Mosaic Law laid out a plethora of requirements. Many of those requirements have no legally binding status. For anyone, even Jews. Would you agree with that?

Do you mean Jews in the New Covenant?

Insofar as unbelieving Jews, without a literal temple they have no legal, literal obligation to something God himself removed. But on the other hand, the absence of it could be God's way of magnifying the fact that they now have no way to be legally and lawfully reconciled to him.

It is complex, yes...

It is, but I just try to remember some fundamental truths about the law that make it easy for me:

1. Jesus did not come to abolish it. Period.

2. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Meaning he came to satisfy it's requirements. Law is about fulfillment.

3. Which is my next point. IMO, the Law of Moses is better understood when you look at it from the angle of the requirements those laws represented rather than the literal, legalistic letter of those laws.

Obvious examples are blood sacrifice for atonement (Jesus is not a 'letter of the law' fulfillment of that, but fulfills it nonetheless), and not muzzling the oxen when they tread the grain. The point of the latter not being that absolutely every time your oxen are treading the grain they have to have feed bags strapped on (what if they just ate?). We know that law was not really given for the sake of oxen, but to illustrate how we should allow ministers of the gospel to reap from their own labors in the ministry (1 Corinthians 9:7-10).

4. The 'covenant' that is now called old has mainly to do with the earthly ministry of temple, priest, and sacrifice--an old system of worship--not the principles those and other laws of Moses represent.

5. The law is all about 'love your neighbor as yourself'. It is the summation of the law. In fact, to love God IS to love your neighbor as yourself, and vice versa. That's why the second greatest command (love neighbor) is like the first (love God).

There may be more, but these are the basic guiding principles that I keep in mind when I discern the role of law in this New Covenant. Number one may well be the most significant. It's not about abolishment. That truth forces us to look at fulfillment which means satisfying requirements of law, not necessarily the letter of the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To me the law written on the hearts of those who don't possess the literal written law is the requirements of the law that all men know through conscience and nature.

But, I'm pretty sure Romans 2:14 is indirectly (but *profoundly* ) talking about the law of Moses when he makes the remark. For the law of Moses is a product of legal argumentation coming from Genesis and the Fathers (with a few concessions).

I'm actually okay with this. I don't believe the 'law' on the hearts of the pagans is entirely natural. I believe conscience to be a tool placed in man by God, and which does much more than just teach the nature of things.

As a side note, a pastor telling me that conscience was from God is probably why I'm saved today. It was the first compelling evidence for me that God really exists, for conscience is from him.

But, let's consider a test case: a dog has a law inscribed in it (brute beast law) that is "natural". And a dog, being the animal it is, sometimes considers a human leg to be a sexual target. Which is "natural" in the sense of that's what some breeds do instinctively... (and very annoyingly.)

It is not obvious, then, that all "non-hetersexual or homospecies(al)" disorders (and even it's definition as a disorder) is attack-able on the grounds of it being found in "nature"?

There are people who can learn depraved tendencies, of their free choice, or who were exposed to sexual violence at an early age; so it isn't as simple as all Nature or Nurture (to use the psychological terms.) But, assuredly, some people have no control over the feelings (but they do over the acts.) It's an illness in addition to a perversion in some cases.

So, when Paul talks about them "doing by nature"; I don't think he means what is inscribed in man's body by "nature"; or raw emotion; and conscience is rationalized by pain/urge relief. (Well, this is the way God MADE me, so it's natural and not wrong. -- some sufferers will claim.)

If I'm understanding you correctly, I can't agree with what you're saying here because of what Paul said:

"26...their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." (Romans 1:26-27 NASB)

To me this is speaking clearly of just being able to see, without the interference of man's desires, that some things are ruled by the nature of things themselves...even having natural penalties connected with the violation of the natural order of things.

But, God says of the promise "I WILL inscribe my law into their hearts.", (Hebrews 8:10 ἐπιγράψω future) by which we discover that they aren't there (completely) now; or else he need not do the work of inscribing them. ( John 6:29 This is the work of God, that you believe. )

Hence, I think God was always involved in inscribing them; one man at a time.

I think that, too. Natural law to me does not categorically exclude the work of God in the heart of a man. Paul does seem to be implying variance between men of how much is written on the heart of those who don't possess knowledge of the law of Moses. And judgment being based on one's personal revelation, not a common revelation.

Some men will naturally do things, others naturally do the opposite; it's biological wiring.
There are even some men who have no sexual drive whatsoever; Matthew 19:12
( Ahh, that'd be nice for many men -- to see the ladies as true art, with no interference from biology. )

I agree. We all have varying compulsions that originate in our fleshly bodes. My struggle is not identical to another person's struggle. We all have to deal with the hand we've been dealt. For some it's bodies wired for heightened sexual passion. For others it's pride, or envy. Whatever it is, we all major in something that somebody else only minors in, but which God still requires us to subdue by the power of faith.

But notice carefully what Paul says in Romans 2:15.
"and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another."

Thoughts, is logismoi (logic). It is therefore, not memory or rhymes, or feelings [alone] but arguments which accuse or excuse.

A man can reason that the purpose of a woman having a womb, is to bear children; and the butt end of all of us -- is for excrement and sitting.

So, from these, we can *reason* to a law about their usage. Romans 1:26-28.

It is in this sense, a theology or law of the Body, which Genesis ( which means being/begetting ) is a law; it's a pre-done example for arguing what is "natural" and what isn't.

It sounds like you're saying what I said above, but which I thought maybe you did not agree with. Reasoning can be just simple scientific observation of facts. I personally think this is the bulk of the meaning in 'natural law'.

As I said, the Babylonians and other nations have records of the same stories found in Genesis; there are imperfect, twisted, but none the less -- they can argue the case of what is the purpose of the body?

Without reason, though, there is no law; for there is no judgment, nor excuse or accusation.
Therefore, law is not a purely internal object; it's one that is grasped by human intellect and achieves it's strongest expression in society -- and Christians are not exempt.

You think way higher than I do. I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, and I'm on board with you.

Matthew 18:20, notice, makes the point nicely with respect to Christians.
It takes two or three witnesses to establish a case; one alone can't be a judge.

Now read Matthew 18:21-31 -- The parable is about judgment.

So we see natural law in action -- for the wicked servant did nothing technically against a written "law" (to the contrary, it was legal). But he was judged by another law that the servantS internalized and witnessed to -- from an example of their "master".

Consider, then, exactly how Paul preached/taught on a "nature" basis:
Romans 1:19, Acts 17:27-29, Romans 1:25-28

Now, each nation has it's "Gods"; therefore, what is "nature" and what is "conscience" and what are "requirements" ?

I think some of this is semantics, but I bring it up as target practice. ;)

In Romans 2:14 -- Paul says "when they do by nature the things contained in the Law."
The definite article in Paul's writing generally refers to the Law of Moses, and often to the prophets/psalms.

I'll have to digest this a little more to comment on it.

 

[About the Son of God]

Hi Reba!

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer? If a person wants to observe such he is free in the Lord to do so... If one is in Christ then he knows where his salvation, is it is in the blood of Christ, not in the Sabbath etc. Freedom in the Lord is the freedom to and the freedom from... I have the freedom to worship on Sunday or not Sabbath or not ... If I choose to celebrate the Passover as Jesus did I am free to do so...There is no better standing with the Lord for my actions ... nor am I in less standing for not doing so... IMO we cross the line when we diminish the Cross ( last time I simply said Cross I got blasted Cross meaning the WHOLE plan of Salvation)

In that case, perhaps celebrating Saturday afternoon late would achieve both ? For the Jewish Sabbath ends late Saturday afternoon; and technically Sunday (The Lord's day) starts then according to Israelite reckoning.
As to Sunday, and general meeting....
Hebrews 10:24-25, Revelation 1:10, Acts 20:7 ; Sunday's the day the Lord rose, and we have record of the bread being broken on that day alone from then on. In prophecy, the Mosaic calendar assigned special feast days as the day after a sabbath; the so called 8th day.
Pentecost, or the feast of weeks, was 7x7 + 1 day long -- and on the 50th day, (a Sunday, always) the extra sabbath fell.

Along the same lines of thought, regarding celebrating Jewish feasts (probably with Jewish friends?);
I was noticing in Galatians 4:10-11, that Paul doesn't say they were lost to Christ for doing so; In fact his concerns appear to be future oriented.

I have read it through several times, and I have a paraphrase (not a translation) that gives my understanding of it.

Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you were ignorant of God, you as Gentiles worshiped the Sun and Moon and astrology which aren't Gods.
Galatians 4:9 but now, after accepting the true God, or rather after the true God accepted you, why do you turn again to look for him in those weak messengers, where you might be enslaved again by your passions ?
Galatians 4:10 For you are now attracted by Mosaic observances of days, months, times, and years
Galatians 4:11 I am anxious for you, lest my labor for you be vain.
Galatians 4:12 Brothers, I beg of you, be like me -- a Jew who left the Law, for I chose to be with you who left the Gentiles; Don't go to the law for my sake, for I was not injured by you but for my zeal in keeping the law.
Galatians 4:13 You know how I came to you with my eyes injured and healed by God, which tested you;
Galatians 4:14 And you chose not to reject me, nor despise me for my injury; Rather you received me as the messenger of God, even as the messiah, Jesus.
Galatians 4:15 Where, then, is the blessing you wished me? For though partially blind, I witnessed that if it were possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.
Galatians 4:16 Have you now come to despise me, because I told you the truth back then?
Galatians 4:17 Oh! the Jews zealously desire you, but not for good. They want you to feel excluded, so you will desire them.
Galatians 4:18 But your zeal ought to be for the gospel, and not only when I am with you.

Paul seems to be afraid that once they begin the observances, they will be within reach of Jews who will mistreat them out of envy.
The result would be that either the Gentile Christians would feel peer pressure to only follow the Law of Moses (excluding Christiantity) or that they would be enraged by it -- and end up reverting to Paganism which has a feast day system build on false Gods.

The worse fear, reverting to Paganism, I don't think is much of an issue today; but the other, being drawn into Judaism and rejecting Christianity based on peer pressure; that is something which might happen even now.

What do you think? How would you read Galatians?

 

[Sparkey]

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

My bad. I thought I was respond to someone else.

I also wonder who has told others to "observe days... and don't eat this, or don't touch that"?? I've not heard any say or teach such things. It could be my ear but is that really what you hear? There are many "voices" and many posts in this 51 page thread. Sometimes I too lose track.

Would you be willing to ask Ryan if he or His Messianic Judaism group teaches that Believers should keep the Law of Moses.

And in keeping the law if they practice keeping feast days or Sabbaths or abstaining from eating pork or not wearing clothing that is mixed such as linen and cotton...

Ask him honestly if he observes any or all of the things I mentioned, to name a few.

If he says that he never has or would never do these things or that Messianic Judaism doesn't teach these things, then I won't bring it up again.


Thanks JLB

Excuse me? I've stated that I have never heard this being done and you reply with what sounds like an ultimatum? That I must ask a Member in good standing here on the forum if he has ever observed Christmas or Easter or the 4th of July or Veterans Day or Passover or Easter? I am not your catspaw, sir! It is as reba has said and we are free in these matters, we are in fact commanded to DO NOT ALLOW others to judge.

So I now command you! DO NO LONGER make judgmental statements about others in such things. That is the very definition of ad hominem, personal attack, directed to the man and not to the subject being discussed. Cease that activity (stop it) and desist (do not take it up again). The Terms that you have agreed to in exchange for the Service that is provided here specifically prohibit this behavior.

This is personal from me to you. Stop now.

 

[John 8:32]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

Galatians 4:9-10 is solely about the Galatians not returning paganism. Being in bondage to observing the Sabbath? Wow.

Lemme see, we are accused of being in bondage for keeping the Sabbath? We are told to rest on the Sabbath. Don't think about all the stress and problems at work. Don't go out and do business, but rather spend time with the family, worship God and have a great meal together. Please don't throw me in that briar patch.