When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[francisdesales]

But, I'm pretty sure Romans 2:14 is indirectly (but *profoundly* ) talking about the law of Moses when he makes the remark. For the law of Moses is a product of legal argumentation coming from Genesis and the Fathers (with a few concessions).

That may be something that later Catholicism wrote about, but the first few hundred years, I have only found writings of "supersessionism" from the Fathers. I haven't done an extensive survey, but it seems Justin the Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch, and the Letter to Diognetus (for example) were stating that the Mosaic Law had passed away. The Old Law has been abrogated with the revelation of the New Law. According to them. And this makes sense, considering that Judaism and Catholicism went their separate ways in the first century, irrevocably. While the Fathers were intent on keeping the OT, they were not about to keep up with the cultural markers, the "Fence", set up by the Old Law, which separated Jews from Gentiles.

No doubt, the Jews themselves had a cosmic and pre-existent view of the Law as "The Wisdom of God". The nascent Catholics saw Jesus Christ as the Mosaic Law's replacement.

Writings about the Natural Law are pretty sparse from the early Fathers, but I have only done a preliminary search.

But, let's consider a test case: a dog has a law inscribed in it (brute beast law) that is "natural". And a dog, being the animal it is, sometimes considers a human leg to be a sexual target. Which is "natural" in the sense of that's what some breeds do instinctively... (and very annoyingly.)

"Natural", to us, is not the "law" of concupiscience and the tendency to sin, but more refers to things like the Golden Rule and the search for goodness and beauty, which is inherent in humans, since (as Augustine wrote) "our hearts are restless until the rest in you, O Lord"... That seeking is "ambiguous" in the pagan, but Christians have defined it as God Himself.

So, when Paul talks about them "doing by nature"; I don't think he means what is inscribed in man's body by "nature"; or raw emotion; and conscience is rationalized by pain/urge relief. (Well, this is the way God MADE me, so it's natural and not wrong. -- some sufferers will claim.)

Agreed. "Natural" is unrevealed knowledge about God's Law, if you look at the context of Romans 1-2. It is not about our tendency to sin. In other words, knowledge without the Torah.

Hence, I think God was always involved in inscribing them; one man at a time.

Yes, that is why Paul says that they have no excuse... If God was not inscribing them, we could claim ignorance upon judgment. However, all the nations will be judged based upon what they know.

But notice carefully what Paul says in Romans 2:15.
"and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another."

Thoughts, is logismoi (logic). It is therefore, not memory or rhymes, or feelings [alone] but arguments which accuse or excuse.

Here, I think Paul is saying that when we accuse others of "x", we are held up to that SAME judgment. This is clarified as we continue reading Romans 2, for the Jews were "teachers", but didn't fulfill what THEY taught!

A man can reason that the purpose of a woman having a womb, is to bear children; and the butt end of all of us -- is for excrement and sitting.

That is "natural" law as defined by Greek philosphy, in particular, Aristotle!

Without reason, though, there is no law; for there is no judgment, nor excuse or accusation.
Therefore, law is not a purely internal object; it's one that is grasped by human intellect and achieves it's strongest expression in society -- and Christians are not exempt.

True, that is what is meant by "natural" - that anyone can come to the conclusion that God exists or that it is wrong to steal - because we do not like it when others steal from us...

Matthew 18:20, notice, makes the point nicely with respect to Christians.
It takes two or three witnesses to establish a case; one alone can't be a judge.

And how about Matthew 16:18-20?

Now read Matthew 18:21-31 -- The parable is about judgment.

So we see natural law in action -- for the wicked servant did nothing technically against a written "law" (to the contrary, it was legal). But he was judged by another law that the servantS internalized and witnessed to -- from an example of their "master".

Agreed. We sense it is wrong, esp. when we were shown mercy.

Consider, then, exactly how Paul preached/taught on a "nature" basis:
Romans 1:19, Acts 17:27-29, Romans 1:25-28

Now, each nation has it's "Gods"; therefore, what is "nature" and what is "conscience" and what are "requirements" ?

As the OT prophets were fond of stating, idols of wood and metal have no ability to do anything. I like Jeremiah's "satire" found at the end of Baruch, the "letter to the exiles in Babylon"... That entire chapter is about how worthless false idols are. Creation speaks to the existence of a God that is not made out of wood!

Regards

 

[JLB]

I also wonder who has told others to "observe days... and don't eat this, or don't touch that"?? I've not heard any say or teach such things. It could be my ear but is that really what you hear? There are many "voices" and many posts in this 51 page thread. Sometimes I too lose track.

Would you be willing to ask Ryan if he or His Messianic Judaism group teaches that Believers should keep the Law of Moses.

And in keeping the law if they practice keeping feast days or Sabbaths or abstaining from eating pork or not wearing clothing that is mixed such as linen and cotton...

Ask him honestly if he observes any or all of the things I mentioned, to name a few.

If he says that he never has or would never do these things or that Messianic Judaism doesn't teach these things, then I won't bring it up again.


Thanks JLB

Excuse me? I've stated that I have never heard this being done and you reply with what sounds like an ultimatum? That I must ask a Member in good standing here on the forum if he has ever observed Christmas or Easter or the 4th of July or Veterans Day or Passover or Easter? I am not your catspaw, sir! It is as reba has said and we are free in these matters, we are in fact commanded to DO NOT ALLOW others to judge.

So I now command you! DO NO LONGER make judgmental statements about others in such things. That is the very definition of ad hominem, personal attack, directed to the man and not to the subject being discussed. Cease that activity (stop it) and desist (do not take it up again). The Terms that you have agreed to in exchange for the Service that is provided here specifically prohibit this behavior.

This is personal from me to you. Stop now.

I also wonder who has told others to "observe days...

I answered your post.

I have studied what Messianic Judaism teaches.

If you don't believe me, then my suggestion was to get it from the person who holds to the teachings that are being discussed.

I did not ask about Christmas or Easter or the 4th of July.

I asked you in a respectful way.

You have responded to my post as if you have some personal vendetta against me.

I demanded nothing from you.

Would you be willing to ask Ryan if he or His Messianic Judaism group teaches that Believers should keep the Law of Moses.

DO NO LONGER make judgmental statements about others in such things. That is the very definition of ad hominem, personal attack, directed to the man and not to the subject being discussed.

If a group or person holds to a belief whether they are Mormon, JW, Preterism or Orthodox Judaism or Messianic Judaism, they have a right to believe what they choose.

If I have a question about what they believe or you have a question about what they believe, is asking them what they believe a personal attack?

I have been asked why do I not follow the law, and I give scripture for what I believe. I don't feel the person is being judgmental.

It would beneficial to learn directly from a person involved in Messianic Judaism what they believe or why they believe what they do rather than from a site that promotes Messianic Judaism.

We are discussing parts of the Law that pertain to Christian Doctrine.


On the other hand if I were in your shoes and had to deal with all the things you guys deal with, then I would probably see things from your perspective more clearly.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul's beautifully crafted argument is this: In the sweeping plan of redemption, the Law of Moses was used to bring history to its climax at the cross. At the cross, sin is defeated. With the goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed.

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The sweeping plan of Moses Law was to bring us to Christ.

Why would you teach others to keep Moses law after they have received Christ?

What purpose does that serve?

Observe days, months, festivals, feast days, sabbaths, don't eat this and don't touch that. What is the purpose of those things to a believer?

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Galatians 4:9-10

JLB

Galatians 4:9-10 is solely about the Galatians not returning paganism. Being in bondage to observing the Sabbath? Wow.

Lemme see, we are accused of being in bondage for keeping the Sabbath? We are told to rest on the Sabbath. Don't think about all the stress and problems at work. Don't go out and do business, but rather spend time with the family, worship God and have a great meal together. Please don't throw me in that briar patch.

I enjoy my day off as well. I usually try to take it on Saturday. I believe this was taught before the Law of Moses.

However I don't believe keeping Sabbath according to the requirements of Moses Law is what God had/has in mind for rest.

Many other things that are seen in the Law of Moses are that were from before are also things that I observe.

A big one with me is what I bring in my home.

I would never bring anything in my home that represents the enemy and gives him access to my Family.

I also don't have any Tattoos, but I also don't judge those that do.

Many very good things that were seen in Moses Law that I believe were from before, and are God's law.

I use this line of reasoning to teach and get others who have been taught a completely lawless Gospel to began to see things differently.

If I stick to Abraham and what He walked in then people tend to receive.

Galatians teaches that we are not to return to the observing of days and weeks and years...

Colossians teaches more about Sabbaths...


JLB

 

[francisdesales]

As far as legality, I understand that insofar as believers being removed from the legal condemnation of the law by the blood of Christ. That's the very gospel message. What the law could not forgive, the blood of Christ does (Acts 13:38-39). Too many take this as meaning 'no more law', an abolishement of the requirements of the law itself rather than an abolishement of the penalty of law. The debt of law got nailed, not the requirements of the law. They remain, now fulfilled through the power of faith and not the powerlessness of written words. (That's the 'way' that changed I've been talking about.)



Do you mean Jews in the New Covenant?

Insofar as unbelieving Jews, without a literal temple they have no legal, literal obligation to something God himself removed. But on the other hand, the absence of it could be God's way of magnifying the fact that they now have no way to be legally and lawfully reconciled to him.

It is complex, yes...

It is, but I just try to remember some fundamental truths about the law that make it easy for me:

1. Jesus did not come to abolish it. Period.

2. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Meaning he came to satisfy it's requirements. Law is about fulfillment.

3. Which is my next point. IMO, the Law of Moses is better understood when you look at it from the angle of the requirements those laws represented rather than the literal, legalistic letter of those laws.

Obvious examples are blood sacrifice for atonement (Jesus is not a 'letter of the law' fulfillment of that, but fulfills it nonetheless), and not muzzling the oxen when they tread the grain. The point of the latter not being that absolutely every time your oxen are treading the grain they have to have feed bags strapped on (what if they just ate?). We know that law was not really given for the sake of oxen, but to illustrate how we should allow ministers of the gospel to reap from their own labors in the ministry (1 Corinthians 9:7-10).

4. The 'covenant' that is now called old has mainly to do with the earthly ministry of temple, priest, and sacrifice--an old system of worship--not the principles those and other laws of Moses represent.

5. The law is all about 'love your neighbor as yourself'. It is the summation of the law. In fact, to love God IS to love your neighbor as yourself, and vice versa. That's why the second greatest command (love neighbor) is like the first (love God).

There may be more, but these are the basic guiding principles that I keep in mind when I discern the role of law in this New Covenant. Number one may well be the most significant. It's not about abolishment. That truth forces us to look at fulfillment which means satisfying requirements of law, not necessarily the letter of the law.

Thanks for your response, jethro...

Regards

 

[John 8:32]

Galatians 4:9-10 is solely about the Galatians not returning paganism. Being in bondage to observing the Sabbath? Wow.

Lemme see, we are accused of being in bondage for keeping the Sabbath? We are told to rest on the Sabbath. Don't think about all the stress and problems at work. Don't go out and do business, but rather spend time with the family, worship God and have a great meal together. Please don't throw me in that briar patch.

I enjoy my day off as well. I usually try to take it on Saturday. I believe this was taught before the Law of Moses.

However I don't believe keeping Sabbath according to the requirements of Moses Law is what God had/has in mind for rest.

The constant reference to Law of Moses is interesting here...

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

And it was in force long before Moses or even Abraham was even a glint in his father's eye...

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Which day did God bless and hallow (make holy)? The seventh day and which seventh day was that, the one that followed the six days of the creation week...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

You can call it a space shuttle if you want to, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD. And Who is this LORD?

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Many other things that are seen in the Law of Moses are that were from before are also things that I observe.

A big one with me is what I bring in my home.

I would never bring anything in my home that represents the enemy and gives him access to my Family.

I also don't have any Tattoos, but I also don't judge those that do.

Many very good things that were seen in Moses Law that I believe were from before, and are God's law.

I use this line of reasoning to teach and get others who have been taught a completely lawless Gospel to began to see things differently.

If I stick to Abraham and what He walked in then people tend to receive.

Galatians teaches that we are not to return to the observing of days and weeks and years...

Colossians teaches more about Sabbaths...


JLB

Yes it certainly does...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

judge:

G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore condemn you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don't let anybody condemn you for keeping the Sabbath. How does this get twisted around to condemning the Sabbath?

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath and the Holydays are shadows of things to come, future tense. Now this was written twenty some years AFTER the crudicixion and is still looking forward. The Sabbath and the Holydays are shadows, types of the plan of God. Six days (6000 years) of man's work after rebellion in the garden and then one day (1000 years) of the Millenium, Christ's glorious rule on earth.

 

[Sparkey]

One of the lessons that I'm trying to learn is how to disconnect myself from the familiar and normalized reading of the words of the One who is "all·together·other"
When I read what I've read 1,000 times before it is sometimes difficult to get new meaning and to learn. One method that I enjoy is to read the Bible in translations that are rendered in a manner that is closer to the Hebrew.


When we look at the Hebrew Interlinear for Genesis 28:13 we can see
Hebrew Text : WLC_v (v1.1): Westminster Leningrad Codex with vowels
Sublinears : WLC_t, CHES (v2.0),

The "Sublinears" is the part that I like because it gives the actual "flavor" of the language as well as a very literal rendering of what was said.

Here then is a copy-pasta from Scripture 4 All Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT)

Gen 28:13 --> and·behold ! Yahweh being-stationed on·him and·he-is-saying I Yahweh Elohim-of Abraham father-of·you and·Elohim-of Isaac ...

Notice the word: נִ צָּ ב (ntzb) being rendered as 'being-stationed'. Can we imagine the Lord standing on or being stationed on us? Some of the totally off-subject questions like, "may I smoke cigarettes," are answered with the image of God being stationed on us. How may I conceive of this? The two thoughts clearly oppose each other hence the need to remain apart from even the appearance of sin. But more back to the point that brought me back to this thread: Can we imagine God being stationed on each one of the contributors here? What would that look like? Would He be seen as arguing with Himself? If not, shall we?

I'm not at all sure what to do or how to best communicate my concern, but I would like to invite us to consider the unfamiliar as we speak.

 

[reba]

Lemme see, we are accused of being in bondage for keeping the Sabbath? We are told to rest on the Sabbath. Don't think about all the stress and problems at work. Don't go out and do business, but rather spend time with the family, worship God and have a great meal together. Please don't throw me in that briar patch.

HEY who works to create that great meal? (In fun)
John is your salvation wrapped up in a Sabbath time of worship? I doubt it....

When we try to impose our ideas of what is right or good we become what we rail against. The scriptures are loaded with feasts and celebrations... God instituted them so His people would remember... Many come from the Exodus ... Jesus Himself asked us to remember the passover ... Many folks I know cook lamb (yuk) as a remembrance. I know of no one who cooks lamb for salvation. When I eat a tortilla there is no leaven I think of that fact it is not a sin nor is my salvation in that "unlevened bread".

Do some folks carry this to far yup, some folks carry everything and anything too far. Some folk's desire to be right is carried to far.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

What part of this scripture do you have trouble understanding?

None of it. In context, the author says that which is obsolete is the old, or first covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice. The requirement of law for temple, priest, and sacrifice has not been done away with. It is fulfilled in the new WAY of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice. It's a NEW Covenant of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice. Just as the author says. No abolishment of lawful requirements here. But definitely a setting aside of specific law in favor of higher law.

I liken it to when a policeman stands in the middle of an intersection under special circumstances and waves people through, even though the light is red. The very same authority that set the light there in the first place is enforcing a higher, more applicable 'law' that supersedes the law of the light previously established. No violation of law is occurring, just the appearance of a violation of law. The intent and purpose of the light (to keep order and ensure everyone's safety, the underlying intent of the law) is preserved, even though another law has appeared, via the same authority, that fulfills the goal of the first law but gives the appearance of violating the first law.

• He takes away the first... Maybe you don't know who He is?

Do you agree that God takes away the first. Yes or No.

Yes. The first covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice has been taken out of the way in favor of a New Covenant of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice that upholds and fulfills the requirements of the first covenant.



The New Covenant is a new WAY of fulfilling the requirements of God revealed in the first covenant as to how his people are to relate to him as his covenant people. No requirements have been abolished. Some simply don't apply to new creations in Christ, and others are fully satisfied to God's complete satisfaction through the new WAY of faith in Jesus Christ. No rules broken, but like the policeman waving you through a red light, only the appearance of laws being broken.

 

[reba]

What do you think? How would you read Galatians?

I believe a lot is wrapped up in verse 17 the intent the intent of what Paul calls the Judadizers ....

What is the Messianic Christians intent? Is it to revert back to Judaism? Or is it freedom in Christ to worship as they see fit....

We can look at al the different divisions of Christianity today.... This group does this or that( I may think it is nuts but they are free in Christ, as long as they are in Christ) Some say there is NO salvation if you are not baptized . Some say you must speak in tongues. Some say you must be RCC.. Some say SDA . How quickly we become judgmental and want folks to be like us, Verse 17.

Why I bother to write is beyond me... IMO God says what I am trying to say here...

1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.




The span of time between the Cross and the destruction of Temple life had to be a crazy time... God in His gracious wisdom left that generation it tact. Personally I believe they are 'saved' folks from that era who did not 'leave' the temple...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lemme see, we are accused of being in bondage for keeping the Sabbath? We are told to rest on the Sabbath. Don't think about all the stress and problems at work. Don't go out and do business, but rather spend time with the family, worship God and have a great meal together. Please don't throw me in that briar patch.

It's the restless, rebellious nature of man that makes the thought of a Sabbath rest burdensome. The person who can't keep a literal Sabbath observance is actually the one in bondage...bondage to his rebellion and restlessness that can't conceive of sitting still for a period of time, but is instead preoccupied with the bondage of his interests of comfort and self preservation and his need to fulfill those. How do I know this? I'm human.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can look at al the different divisions of Christianity today.... This group does this or that( I may think it is nuts but they are free in Christ, as long as they are in Christ) Some say there is NO salvation if you are not baptized . Some say you must speak in tongues. Some say you must be RCC.. Some say SDA . How quickly we become judgmental and want folks to be like us, Verse 17.

Are you trying to take away all our fun here in the Theology folders, lol?

 

[reba]

no Jethro I like spicy reading

 

[Drew]

However, one caveat: Ruth the Moabitess, was not a Jew, but she married a man -- becoming his flesh; by the name of Boos (Boaz); and thus became a Jew (Specifically a Judah-ite; Israelite through Judah); (albeit restricted for 10 generations in temple worship.)

I agree that that the occasional Gentile did indeed become incorporated into the people of Israel. But that does not change the bigger picture - God Himself declares that the nation of Israel is set apart from the Gentile world.

I politely suggest that Ephesians 2 is fatal to the view that the Law remains in force. In that text, the author speaks of how abolition of a "law" has resulted in the integration of Jew and Gentile into a single family.

By God's own words, the Law of Moses serves precisely that function - it marks out the Jew from the Gentile.

Therefore, the law that has been abolished to end that separation of Jew from Gentile has to be the Law of Moses.

People like Ryan have to argue that this "law" is a set of man-made add-ons. But that clearly cannot work. Why not? Precisely because even if such add-ons did function to separate the Jew from the Gentile, the abolition of such man-made add-ons would still leave the Law of Moses intact.

And what do we know about the Law of Moses? Answer: It marks out the Jew as separate from the Gentile.

 

[Drew]

Paul? Chapter and verse please.

Paul argues in Romans 5 and Romans 7 that the Law functions to increase the sin of Israel. This fits into his broader argument that God has "hardened" Israel through the Law in order to bring salvation to the Gentile. I suggest that it is an over-simplification to assert this:

The sweeping plan of redemption of God is Christ, not the Law of Moses.

No one is denying that Jesus' work on the cross is the climax of God's redemption plan. But Israel has a role to play in that as well, as Paul clearly declares here in Romans 11:

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

By context, it is clear that the "they" are the hardened majority of Jews. Paul says what he says - the hardening of Israel is part of God's plan to save the world.

And how is that hardening achieved? Through the Law of Moses:

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase;

Watch what people will do with this verse. They will say that Paul really does not mean what he says - which is that the Law cause transgression to increase. They will bend what Paul is saying into a claim that Paul is saying that the Law "exposes" sin. Well, that is not what Paul says. Besides, we have other texts, such as statements in Romans 7 and 1 Corinthians 15: Paul believes that the Law of Moses energizes and empowers sin.

Why would God do such a thing? Why would God want Israel to become more sinful? Precisely because God is luring sin into Israel so that it can then be focused into Jesus on the cross, and there condemned.

Conclusion: The Law of Moses is indeed an organic element of the plan of redemption. And having done its job of hardening Israel, it is retired.

 

[Sinthesis]

no Jethro I like spicy reading

Fifty Shades of Legalism?2

 

[Sinthesis]

Well, I don't want that to be my only contribution to this thread, so I'll add that when thinking about the Law and whether it has passed we should realize that an important part of Moses' Law is the various consequences for transgression. Do we as God's people still stone adulterers? We could under Moses' Law, if we really wanted to blindly follow that Law, but we don't anymore. We can pick and choose parts of the written law that make us feel special to follow, but we shouldn't deceive ourselves into thinking we are following the whole Law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

Well, I don't want that to be my only contribution to this thread, so I'll add that when thinking about the Law and whether it has passed we should realize that an important part of Moses' Law is the various consequences for transgression. Do we as God's people still stone adulterers? We could under Moses' Law, if we really wanted to blindly follow that Law, but we don't anymore. We can pick and choose parts of the written law that make us feel special to follow, but we shouldn't deceive ourselves into thinking we are following the whole Law of Moses.

Well said.

 

[JLB]

The constant reference to Law of Moses is interesting here...

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

And it was in force long before Moses or even Abraham was even a glint in his father's eye...

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Which day did God bless and hallow (make holy)? The seventh day and which seventh day was that, the one that followed the six days of the creation week...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

You can call it a space shuttle if you want to, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD. And Who is this LORD?

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Many other things that are seen in the Law of Moses are that were from before are also things that I observe.

A big one with me is what I bring in my home.

I would never bring anything in my home that represents the enemy and gives him access to my Family.

I also don't have any Tattoos, but I also don't judge those that do.

Many very good things that were seen in Moses Law that I believe were from before, and are God's law.

I use this line of reasoning to teach and get others who have been taught a completely lawless Gospel to began to see things differently.

If I stick to Abraham and what He walked in then people tend to receive.

Galatians teaches that we are not to return to the observing of days and weeks and years...

Colossians teaches more about Sabbaths...


JLB

Yes it certainly does...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

judge:

G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore condemn you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don't let anybody condemn you for keeping the Sabbath. How does this get twisted around to condemning the Sabbath?

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath and the Holydays are shadows of things to come, future tense. Now this was written twenty some years AFTER the crudicixion and is still looking forward. The Sabbath and the Holydays are shadows, types of the plan of God. Six days (6000 years) of man's work after rebellion in the garden and then one day (1000 years) of the Millenium, Christ's glorious rule on earth.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Don't let anybody condemn you for keeping the Sabbath. How does this get twisted around to condemning the Sabbath?

Jews sent out from Jerusalem were specifically sent behind Paul to try and bring Gentiles believers into bondage by persuading them to "be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses" which was never of any use to Gentiles living "outside" the covenant land where these Laws were mandated.

The Law of Moses portrayed a shadow, the substance was Christ. End of shadow!

These Jews who were trying to bring condemnation on Gentile Christians because they were not keeping the feast's, nor Sabbath's [plural] nor were they adhering to Mosaic food laws. For good reason, Paul taught them well. These things are of no use to restrain the indulgence of the flesh.

Don't touch this or don't eat that or don't wear mixed clothing or you must keep this feast day... are all Moses Law requirements that were never intended for gentiles that live in other countries.

To say otherwise, is to simply display a lack of understanding.

Now if you can show me in the law of Moses where Gentiles who dwell in other countries were to keep Moses Law, then I will be the one twisting God's word.

If not, then you will be the one guilty of twisting God's word.


JLB

 

[Drew]

These Jews who were trying to bring condemnation on Gentile Christians because they were not keeping the feast's, nor Sabbath's [plural] nor were they adhering to Mosaic food laws.

What did Jesus have to say about the food laws? He claimed that nothing you eat makes you unclean.

Yes, this is a clear contradiction to the Law of Moses which indeed classifies some foods as unclean.

How do people who insist the Law of Moses is still in force deal with this? They generally are forced to try to argue that Jesus is challenging human additions to the Law of Moses. And how do they make this odd position work (its odd because what Jesus says is what he says! - no food makes you unclean, and that is from the Law of Moses, not from human tradition).

Their general strategy: Point to the fact that, earlier in the passage, some human traditions such as handwashing were indeed being discussed. Well so what? How does that change Jesus' direct challenge to the Law of Moses?

 

[JLB]

1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Psalm 110:1,4

Those that misinterpret the purpose and place for The Law of Moses say, We are following Jesus' example as He kept The Law of Moses.

This statement alone shows that their understanding is blemished at best, for Jesus did not keep the Law of Moses.

He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets concerning Him being the Messiah, but He did not keep the Law of Moses, for in Him was no Transgression.

He is was and forever will be a Priest in the order of Melchizedek!

Now, from the Law of Moses, please show me where it is written about the duties of the Priest after the order of Melchizedek?

When you can, then I will listen to what you have to say about what Law Jesus "kept".

For every argument for the law must be found in the Law or the Law has been changed.

That is what got Jesus crucified as an innocent Man, because they found no sin against Him and no Law by which to convict Him.

If they had, they wouldn't have gotten the Romans to do their dirty work.

JLB