When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, sort of, lol. A remnant anyway. It's purpose in defining sin and revealing the righteous requirements of God remains. What it can't do (anymore) is condemn those who have placed their faith in Christ.

Well sort of?

I was referring to the 'pointing the children of Israel to Christ' part of your post. As you know it really didn't do that very well. Only a remnant existing at any one point in time has been 'pointed to Christ'. It's done a bang up job for us gentiles. How ironic is that?

Do you agree that the Law of Moses was given to the Children of Israel and only intended for those living in the Land of Israel?

By virtue of the one 'appointed place of worship' the literal laws of worship can only be satisfied in the Land of Israel. The people of God, both natural Jew and gentile alike, were to follow those laws. They were the laws for the people of God.

So we can confine our discussion to only that which is relevant.

A.] Yes I agree the Law of Moses was only intended for those living in the land of Israel.

B.] No, I believe the Law of Moses was applicable for Gentiles living in their own country.

This is what you are going to have to start to understand. You HAVE to be more specific when talking about the law of Moses. This broad stroked 'the law has been abolished' completely misses the truth about the law of Moses. This nearsighted, misguided rhetoric of the church concerning the law has failed to communicate the truth about the Law in this New Covenant and reduced it to the UNholy, UNrighteous, NOgood thing Paul says it is NOT.

So, if you want to be more specific I'll be happy to choose either 'A', or 'B'.

 

[JLB]

The law of Moses was added to the Abraham Covenant till the seed should come.

Yes, until the Seed should come. This Seed is Jesus and He came. We are His seed.

We have access to this New Covenant, new contract if you will, through the Seed Jesus.

At least this is how I understand it.

Keep on with the study.
Perhaps you 'might' arrive yet? Act 5:32

--Elijah

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:7-11

It was the Law of Moses that mandated Jews living in other countries return to Jerusalem for the feasts.

It was this reason that Jews living in other countries were in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost and witnessed the outpouring of the Spirit.

Gentiles living in other countries were not required to keep the Law of Moses.

JLB

 

[JLB]

This is what you are going to have to start to understand. You HAVE to be more specific when talking about the law of Moses. This broad stroked 'the law has been abolished' completely misses the truth about the law of Moses. This nearsighted, misguided rhetoric of the church concerning the law has failed to communicate the truth about the Law in this New Covenant and reduced it to the UNholy, UNrighteous, NOgood thing Paul says it is NOT. So, if you want to be more specific I'll be happy to choose either 'A', or 'B'.

Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left... Joshua 23:6

That is the specific law of Moses that I am referring to. The laws that Moses gave and Joshua continued to govern the children of Israel in.

The law of Moses that Jesus referred to - If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

Please show from the Law of Moses where Gentiles living in there own land were required to keep any of the Law of Moses.

This nearsighted, misguided rhetoric of the church concerning the law has failed to communicate the truth about the Law in this New Covenant and reduced it to the UNholy, UNrighteous, NOgood thing Paul says it is NOT.

You are trying to blend another discussion into this thread.

We are not talking about what others say or think or teach.

We are discussing If the law of Moses has passed away.

You are, for very good reason, trying to avoid the simple basic truth from the law itself.

Once we establish who the entire Law of Moses ,that was administrated by Moses, was and was not intended for, then we can reason from the scriptures if that Law, the entire Law has passed away.

There is no use in distracting the OP with side discussions about what Gentile believers in Christ should be keeping.

As we have established already, Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws, 430 years before the Law of Moses.

The Law of God was intended for the whole world as was the gospel, for Abraham being a Gentile was faithful in walking with God and keeping His commandments and statutes and laws 430 years prior to Moses and his law.

His Royal Law which was His first law is found in the principle of Obedience!

If we love God we will obey Him.

If we love God's children, then we will Obey God, so that our disobedience will not bring death to the entire human race by disobeying Him.

This concept and Law requirement is absolutely still in force today.

Jesus said -"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

God's laws are eternal.

Moses Law was temporary.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

The law of Moses that Jesus referred to - If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

Please show from the Law of Moses where Gentiles living in there own land were required to keep any of the Law of Moses.

Interesting question that. It seems that you're asking for an explanation regarding the perspective of Moses about the "Stranger Among Us". The interesting part is that Moses himself was a "Stranger" in multiple ways. He was a "Stranger" even as we are, being called after the call of Abraham to leave his city and move toward the city whose builder and maker is God. He is a stranger who found himself raised as an Egyptian and then understood his Hebrew heritage. He was a stranger again as he traveled toward the meeting he had with his soon-to-be wife.

This man, this Moses, this 'stranger' if you will is part of a 'peculiar people' just as you are. Just as I am. He is the one who spoke of the Law and yes, so are you and yes, so am I. But what did he say about that? Before we look there, it will be good to look at what the word "stranger" means and if there might be multiple meanings or plural-isms found there. A 'Resident alien' is a foreigner who has come to dwell permanently among people with whom he, to a certain extent, identifies himself. We see this clearly in the Book of Ruth. Nearly equivalent to is the 'Sojourner,' a rare term in the Old Testament, apparently implying a less settled residence than 'Resident alien'. To these two terms may be added the 'Hired man,' a person who, though he may be a native (Deut. 24:14) is often contrasted with the native (Deut. 15:18) and associated with the Foreigner or 'Resident alien' (Ex. 12:45)

But what did Moses have to say about that? How may we respond to your well considered and well qualified prompt, "show from the Law of Moses where Gentiles living in there own land were required to keep any of the Law of Moses"?

To rightly divide the Word of Truth on that matter may require some little bit of a stretch. I will leave it up to you to determine if what is say is too much of a stretch but would caution you that I'm certain that you would not like to see yourself stretched upon your own petard if you become too legalistic (not trying to say you are, only that you may be seen to be such) by interpreting the word in a manner this does not follow the Spirit of the Law. Having said that, here goes:

Weekly Torah Commentary
Nitzavim (September 15, 2012)

Translation:
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
(11) Surely, this Instruction which I enjoin upon you this day is not too baffling for you, nor is it beyond reach. (12) It is not in the heavens, that you should say, “Who among us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?” (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?” (14) No, the thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it.

Excerpted from The Torah: A Modern Commentary, Revised Edition, editor W. Gunther Plaut (NY: URJ Press, 2005). Used by permission of URJ Press, www.urjbooksandmusic.com.

My favorite part of Moses' exhortation was when he assured everyone that there was no mystery to serving God. It is not written in the heavens but it is in our hearts. All the commandments have been given to us and we will know what to do. We are to life our lives faithful to our God and we will know what is required.

But who is that stranger, you may ask? In fact, that is exactly what you have prompted others for so that you may consider their response. Is it the 'Resident alien' only? Can we see in the words of Moses who it might be?

So Moses too was a stranger.

I number my enemies by their swords, not by their chains, High Priest.

Chains have been forged into swords before now, Divine One.

Among these slaves, there is a prophecy of a deliverer who will lead them out of bondage.

A star proclaims his birth.

Quoting Moses as played by Charlton Heston

We know that Moses was not that deliverer but in fact this was a 'shadow' of the deliverance that was promised and that Jesus, The Christ, is the deliverer who had been promised to woman and her seed not so many years ago.

Charton continues:

Tomorrow we leave for the high pastures beneath God's holy mountain. My tent would be favored if you joined us.

I am a stranger in a strange land. I have no wealth, no skill as a shepherd, and it is death to give sanctuary to a runaway slave.​

Slave?
Death?

Not among our people.​

You have wisdom. You need nothing more. And there are seven here to teach you the tasks of a shepherd. Sephora is the eldest. You can learn best from her.

Oh. I will dwell in this land.​

**************************

Today he sleeps.

Who sleeps?​

He who has no name.

Does your god live on this mountain?​

Sinai is his high place, his temple.

If this god is God, he would live on every mountain, in every valley. He would not be only the god of Israel or Ishmael alone, but of all men.​

There are no strangers among those who seek God's mercy.

Quoting Moses as played by Charlton Heston

"Okay, that's cute, what you did there," I can almost hear you thinking, "... quoting Charlton Heston as Moses."

See: Deut 33:4; Mark 11:18; John 1:17; John 7:1; John 7:19 before we go further.

Our forefather Abraham presented himself as a ger v’toshav[*] to the Hittites who sold him the Cave of Machpelah. "You, the ger v’toshav, who are you to us?"

[*]Footnote: Ger v’toshav, means “the resident foreigner,” the stranger who dwells among us.
The Loving Stranger Who Dwells Among Us, by Rabbi Karen Bender

Exodus 23:9 establishes a high standard for Israel‟s treatment of the resident alien based on personal identification: "You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt." God also exhorts treatment of the resident alien as a reflection of His love in Deut. 10:18-19: "He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt."

To respond to your question, and submit it to your judgment, if it is a stretch or not, and if it is, is it too much of a stretch, I would also like to point out The stranger, of course, is also Jesus Christ, the master teacher of the Old Testament. First, we must try to understand the law of Moses on its own terms, within its own. Then we may consider the fact that The Christ would become incarnate and dwell among us. He is the stranger. "But Lord? When were YOU hungry and we fed you??"

And unto that understanding and unto that may we say remind that Jesus is the Word also and that Jesus is seen in the law that was given. In each and every law and word. He is the only one who saw and knew His Father in Heaven and the Only one who shed forth the light through which our understanding may be illuminated.

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."

Most who look at the Word given in the Book of Acts while the Apostles discussed Gentiles (or Goy) skip over the emphasized part above. There was no need to preach the Torah because it was in their mouth, not outside of their reach and not in heaven, located above them so that they needed someone to go up and fetch it back to them or for them.

What has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentile believers? Why is it being mentioned here along with the 'four laws'? Because the Gentiles were to *learn Torah* each week in the synagogues! They are being started off on these four laws so they would have the bare basics to begin fellowshiping with their Jewish brethren and they would learn the rest of Torah each shabbat at synagogue. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (vs 22) to send this letter out to the various churches.

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

We simply may not isolate one verse to form doctrine and teaching from it alone. Four (4) questions arise while considering this:

1. What group was demanding conversion by circumcision and Torah observance?
2. How was the "Torah of Moshe" defined by the group demanding it?
3. What was the apostle's response to *this particular group*'s demand and why?
4. What does other scripture teach regarding observance for believers (Gentile and Jewish)?

Note the contrast between what was being done and the purpose of the Pharisee contrasted to the Purpose of The Christ as discussed in the Book of Acts:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matt 23:2-4

Note the warning a few verses later:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23:15

Note that oral tradition is a burden -- man attempts to enslave others; but God's Way is freedom. Jesus, our Yeshua proclamed:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19 (Isaiah 61:1)

"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts." Psalms 119:44,45

"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright." Leviticus 26:13

God didn't give His Law (the Torah) only to re-enslave Israel. Torah is freedom. Torah is never a yoke. It is man's additions to God's laws that are the yoke and the excessive burden that Paul spoke about. Yes, we see that Paul also pointed to the purpose of the Law as a schoolmaster to deliver us to The Christ, we also see that The Promise unto all that the Lord, our God shall call (Acts 2:39).

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day [is] the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

What is that Sabbath? What is that Rest?

15 For not as ye ween [Soothly not as ye deem, or guess], these be drunken, when it is the third hour of the day; 16 but this it is, that was said by the prophet Joel, 17 And it shall be in the last days, the Lord saith, I shall pour out my Spirit on each flesh [I shall pour out my Spirit on all flesh];

38 And Peter said to them, Do ye penance [Penance, he said, do ye], and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of your sins; and ye shall take the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is to you, and to your sons, and to all that be far, whichever our Lord God hath called. [Forsooth repromission is to you, and to your sons, and to all that be far, whomever the Lord our God hath called to.] 40 Also with other words full many he witnessed to them, and admonished them, and said, Be ye saved from this depraved generation [saying, Be ye saved from this wicked, or shrewd, generation].

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is what you are going to have to start to understand. You HAVE to be more specific when talking about the law of Moses. This broad stroked 'the law has been abolished' completely misses the truth about the law of Moses. This nearsighted, misguided rhetoric of the church concerning the law has failed to communicate the truth about the Law in this New Covenant and reduced it to the UNholy, UNrighteous, NOgood thing Paul says it is NOT. So, if you want to be more specific I'll be happy to choose either 'A', or 'B'.

Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left... Joshua 23:6

That is the specific law of Moses that I am referring to. The laws that Moses gave and Joshua continued to govern the children of Israel in.

The law of Moses that Jesus referred to - If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

Please show from the Law of Moses where Gentiles living in there own land were required to keep any of the Law of Moses.

You're confusing the issue terribly. You have to stop thinking in terms of Jew/gentile. This will make a lot more sense to you if you instead think "people of God". The commands of God are for the people of God--those who, with or without the written law, relate to him through faith.

But to answer your question:

"To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad..."

"...if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15 NASB). 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." (James 1:1 , James 2:9-11 NASB)

I know what you're going to say, but do you really think for a moment the law keeping that James says represents the faith that saves is only for Jews? Or worse, you're somehow going to make the specific references he makes to the obediences of law not the law of Moses. That's impossible to do honestly.

This nearsighted, misguided rhetoric of the church concerning the law has failed to communicate the truth about the Law in this New Covenant and reduced it to the UNholy, UNrighteous, NOgood thing Paul says it is NOT.

You are trying to blend another discussion into this thread.

We are not talking about what others say or think or teach.

No I'm not, and you know it.

The church thinks the law has 'passed away' as in abolished (the very thing Jesus said he did NOT come to do), because that law was UNholy, UNrighteous, and NOT good, and not applicable to them, not knowing their faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses.

We are discussing If the law of Moses has passed away.

You are, for very good reason, trying to avoid the simple basic truth from the law itself.

Various literal laws have 'passed away', but that hardly means faith does not fulfill the requirements of the law. In fact, that's why they have 'passed away'. And that hardly means they have been abolished (the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do). They are permanently and perfectly fulfilled in the work of Christ for those who have faith in Christ's work to do that.

Once we establish who the entire Law of Moses ,that was administrated by Moses, was and was not intended for, then we can reason from the scriptures if that Law, the entire Law has passed away.

The entire law has passed away? That simply is not true. Paul says we uphold the Commandments when we love other people (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). How does that even come close to the entire law of Moses 'passing away' as you mean that?

Read Hebrews. What 'passed away' (not abolished) were the literal laws of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. Laws no longer needed to be literally kept by a nation of God's people brought near to God and made legally perfect and free of sin guilt through faith in Christ. The very faith that accomplished that for the people of God is the same faith, expressed through love, that then KEEPS the requirements of the law of Moses, not destroys them! James, and John, along with Paul say this! All making DIRECT references to the law of Moses.

There is no use in distracting the OP with side discussions about what Gentile believers in Christ should be keeping.

...But that is exactly what YOU are doing. Why are you dividing the people of God up into Jew and gentile? I'm not doing that. There is only one nation and people and kingdom of God's people. And faith is the common denominator among them, not what laws apply to Jews, and which apply to gentiles!

As we have established already, Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws, 430 years before the Law of Moses.

The Law of God was intended for the whole world as was the gospel, for Abraham being a Gentile was faithful in walking with God and keeping His commandments and statutes and laws 430 years prior to Moses and his law.

Somehow keeping whatever laws it was that God impressed on the hearts of men prior to codification of that law in the law of Moses is somehow not keeping the law of Moses? It's a silly argument. Especially when the NT says it is. You're the one avoiding the obvious.

His Royal Law which was His first law is found in the principle of Obedience!

If we love God we will obey Him.

Obey him in what? Can you be specific? Perhaps they are written down somewhere for me to reference.

If we love God's children, then we will Obey God, so that our disobedience will not bring death to the entire human race by disobeying Him.

This concept and Law requirement is absolutely still in force today.

But God forbid we might actually call this fulfilling the requirements of the law of Moses, right? Even though the NT does.

Jesus said -"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

And somehow you think what Christ says to do is not the law of Moses?????

God's laws are eternal.

Moses Law was temporary.
[/B]

How is it that you think the requirements of the Law of Moses (that faith fulfills) are somehow NOT the eternal requirements of God?????

Even the laws that 'passed away' as to their literal, to the letter of the law fulfillment represent the eternal requirements of God.

 

[JLB]

It seems that you're asking for an explanation regarding the perspective of Moses about the "Stranger Among Us".

No, not at all. I am referring to the Law of Moses being applicable to Gentiles that live in countries outside of Israel.

Because the Gentiles were to *learn Torah* each week in the synagogues!

I know that is the stock answer that Messianic Judaism teaches, however that would mean that New Gentile believers, living in their own country were to be discipled by unsaved Rabbi's the teachings that Jesus taught His disciples which consist of The Gospel of the kingdom, casting out devils, speaking in tongues and laying hands on the sick.

That is defiantly not the case.

Notice the language in verse 21 -

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Has had is a reference to the past, not to the future.

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him...

this is a direct reference to the law of Moses. The law of Moses makes no provision for applying his laws to Gentiles that live outside of Israel. The law of Moses pertains to those living in the covenant land of Israel, whereby Levite Priest's administer the things in the law of Moses to the children of Israel and a few converts living in the land of Israel.

Here is one of many examples of the Law of Moses being applied to the children of Israel.

12 Also the hand of God was on Judah to give them singleness of heart to obey the command of the king and the leaders, at the word of the Lord. 13 Now many people, a very great assembly, gathered at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month. 14 They arose and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem, and they took away all the incense altars and cast them into the Brook Kidron. 15 Then they slaughtered the Passover lambs on the fourteenth day of the second month. The priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought the burnt offerings to the house of the Lord. 16 They stood in their place according to their custom, according to the Law of Moses the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood received from the hand of the Levites. 2 Chronicles 30:12-16

This is just one of Many examples. How would this be applicable to Gentiles who live say, in Greece.

Or this one -

26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.

How would this Law of Moses be applicable to Gentiles living in Saudi Arabia.

I will say this, there is a unique time on the Horizon, whereby Daniel's 70th week will start, and in that period there will be a temple built which will be in Jerusalem.

Would, in your opinion, there be a need for Gentile converts to travel to Jerusalem to be there for the feast's?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The entire law has passed away? That simply is not true. Paul says we uphold the Commandments when we love other people (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). How does that even come close to the entire law of Moses 'passing away' as you mean that?

You shall love the Lord and you shall love your neighbor, you think that originated with Moses?

That Royal Law was seen in the Torah, before Moses.

Let's simplify matters, because the Law of God was before Moses and kept by Abraham.

If you believe Moses Law is still in force today, then I would encourage you to keep Moses law, because the law of faith says this, be it unto you according to your faith.

Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself for what he approves.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The entire law has passed away? That simply is not true. Paul says we uphold the Commandments when we love other people (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). How does that even come close to the entire law of Moses 'passing away' as you mean that?

You shall love the Lord and you shall love your neighbor, you think that originated with Moses?

And you think doing that somehow isn't 'keeping' the law of Moses? Paul says it is.

Let's simplify matters, because the Law of God was before Moses and kept by Abraham.

If you believe Moses Law is still in force today, then I would encourage you to keep Moses law, because the law of faith says this, be it unto you according to your faith.

I'm doing that. Aren't you? Or do you think your faith does not, for example, satisfy God's requirements for blood found in the law?

[/B][/U]Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself for what he approves.]

What on earth does this have to do with this discussion? Explain.

 

[About the Son of God]

I believe a lot is wrapped up in verse 17 the intent the intent of what Paul calls the Judadizers .... What is the Messianic Christians intent?

Is it to revert back to Judaism? Or is it freedom in Christ to worship as they see fit.... We can look at al the different divisions of Christianity today.... This group does this or that( I may think it is nuts but they are free in Christ, as long as they are in Christ) Some say there is NO salvation if you are not baptized . Some say you must speak in tongues. Some say you must be RCC.. Some say SDA .

How quickly we become judgmental and want folks to be like us, Verse 17.

Why I bother to write is beyond me...

mmm... yes, very much so; I see that in verse 17 as well; but as to the writing....: I thought it was because I asked nicely ?

Loving the scriptures, doesn't reduce that I love to share some time with my brothers and sisters in the Lord; speaking of these things: Luke 24:13-15, Matthew 18:20; And I do hope their wish to follow some of the Law of Moses is not to revert back!!!

...

Baptism .... ? In times of old there was circumcision -- and now there is baptism.

Unless there is a way to receive life, without receiving the eternal breath of life; I think, too, that baptism is necessary. Matthew 3:11; for that's what it means to enter into Christ via. his Spirit ( Analogy: a baptism of a different kind: 1Corinthians 10:2-5 )

But, I'd like to probe it just a little more;

The first indications of it: Genesis 1:2, Genesis 2:7, Genesis 6:3 ( Here the Spirit of life is also Conscience; as ?perhaps? Jethro meant. )
Isaiah 43:25-26, (Conscience, again esp. vv. 26)
Isaiah 44:2-3, and ( A new creation ... and watering earth is required for life; eg: living water with spirit? )
especially Isaiah 44:5-6 ( There appear to be different paths allowed for believers. )

I see John 3:5-7 as a summary; where of water, earth, wind, and fire -- flesh is earth; the Holy Spirit is Wind and Fire, and therefore that which remains is water. (Mysterious analogies from science: John 3:12)

Symbolic baptism is an act of obedience, not strictly necessary in all cases -- but which, if flagrantly disregarded, I think puts God to the test; leading to a danger:

Matthew 7:20-22 ; eg: Not that I judge people who don't accept baptism; but I do fear for them and pray.

(I tired to roughly outline the idea of Jesus' new laws for his disciples: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49081&p=792949&viewfull=1#post792949
"new law" Matthew 5:21-7:12, and "appendix" Matthew 7:13-28 ; and I mean law for his disciples, including the "our father" )

IMO God says what I am trying to say here... 1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

The span of time between the Cross and the destruction of Temple life had to be a crazy time... God in His gracious wisdom left that generation it tact. Personally I believe they are 'saved' folks from that era who did not 'leave' the temple...

I agree.

Emotionally speaking: Paul troubles me regarding meat, and circumcision....
For if a Jew were of weak conscience concerning the meat; and it's appropriate to adjust one's eating habits according to the conscience of the observer;

1Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

But, it is impossible to not to scandalize some people by being as another people... and if 1Corinthians is the "rule" then why does Paul proclaim Peter a hypocrite for doing the same thing -- to save Jews and Gentiles ?

Galatians 2:11-12 (They both, Peter and Paul, were afraid of the Jews)
Galatians 5:2-3 VS. Acts 16:3

Reba, I think you say it very well -- yourself:

How quickly we become judgmental and want folks to be like us, Verse 17.

Matthew 7:1-4, Acts 9:9, Galatians 4:13-15

Even Paul wanted that -- a-lot.


The 33 to 70A.D. years must have been very trying; And I think that there is some evidence that the Apostles, before the crucifixion, had though they would inherit the temple with a worldly messiah; It took a lengthy conversation from Jesus to correct their mistaken views, and even to the Garden of Getsemane, they were bickering over who was the greatest.

How tempting it must have been to see the wealth of the temple, and think -- that Glory could be theirs for following Jesus.... *sigh*.

 

[JLB]

And you think doing that somehow isn't 'keeping' the law of Moses? Paul says it is.




I'm doing that. Aren't you? Or do you think your faith does not, for example, satisfy God's requirements for blood found in the law?

[/B][/U]Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself for what he approves.]

What on earth does this have to do with this discussion? Explain.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

The Law of God was kept by Abraham.

The Law of Moses was given to the Children of Israel for that land.

It was not applicable in other nations, the Law of God, that Abraham learned from God and was faithful to keep before God, was and is.

If you believe you should be keeping Moses law then please do so.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And you think doing that somehow isn't 'keeping' the law of Moses? Paul says it is.




I'm doing that. Aren't you? Or do you think your faith does not, for example, satisfy God's requirements for blood found in the law?

[/B][/U]Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself for what he approves.]

What on earth does this have to do with this discussion? Explain.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

The Law of God was kept by Abraham.

The Law of Moses was given to the Children of Israel for that land.

It was not applicable in other nations, the Law of God, that Abraham learned from God and was faithful to keep before God, was and is.

Then you believe that every male, Jew and gentile, has to be circumcised to be in covenant with God, right?

If you believe you should be keeping Moses law then please do so.

Sadly, your problem, along with a lot of other folk in the church, is you don't know what keeping the law of Moses, the eternal requirements of God, through faith looks like in this New Covenant and instead have simply chosen to understand it as the law of Moses being abolished--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do, but came to fulfill.

 

[JLB]

Then you believe that every male, Jew and gentile, has to be circumcised to be in covenant with God, right?

I challenge you to show me in any of my post's where I have made such a statement.

Sadly, your problem, along with a lot of other folk in the church, is you don't know what keeping the law of Moses, the eternal requirements of God, through faith looks like in this New Covenant and instead have simply chosen to understand it as the law of Moses being abolished--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do, but came to fulfill.

Please show from the law of Moses where Gentiles who live in there own country should keep the law of Moses.


When you can, then you may have a valid point, until then you are just talking, with no scripture to validate your belief.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you believe that every male, Jew and gentile, has to be circumcised to be in covenant with God, right?

I challenge you to show me in any of my post's where I have made such a statement.

It was a question.

Circumcision is part of what you call the eternal law of God (to distinguish it from the temporary Law of Moses), so explain it's place in the Christian faith.

Sadly, your problem, along with a lot of other folk in the church, is you don't know what keeping the law of Moses, the eternal requirements of God, through faith looks like in this New Covenant and instead have simply chosen to understand it as the law of Moses being abolished--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do, but came to fulfill.

Please show from the law of Moses where Gentiles who live in there own country should keep the law of Moses.

Of course we know the Land is symbolic of the kingdom of God and it's blessings, and the life of Israel is about worshiping and obeying God in that Promised Land in order to stay in that blessing. But what point are you trying to make since we see the Apostles teaching the law of Moses outside of Israel? Explain.

 

[JLB]

Of course we know the Land is symbolic of the kingdom of God and it's blessings, and the life of Israel is about worshiping and obeying God in that Promised Land in order to stay in that blessing. But what point are you trying to make since we see the Apostles teaching the law of Moses outside of Israel? Explain.

You don't get to spiritualize away the question.

Lets work together and weed out who the Law of Moses was meant for.

We know it was not meant for Gentiles living outside of Israel.

Agree or No.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Notice the language in verse 21 -

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Has had is a reference to the past, not to the future.

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him...

this is a direct reference to the law of Moses.

Not to put too fine of a point on it but I am not certain that it was a direct reference to the Law of Moses. Seems that way but let's say it is. Now turn with me to the Greek Interlinear for Acts 15:21 so we may see what was actually said. Notice in particular the time reference you speak about.

http://interlinearbible.org/acts/15-21.htm

 

[Deborah13]

Would, in your opinion, there be a need for Gentile converts to travel to Jerusalem to be there for the feast's?

Just a short question about this could you please tell me what you see?

I've read it as though once a year all the nations must come to Jerusalem or the Mt. to worship? Is this correct?

 

[JLB]

Would, in your opinion, there be a need for Gentile converts to travel to Jerusalem to be there for the feast's?

Just a short question about this could you please tell me what you see?

I've read it as though once a year all the nations must come to Jerusalem or the Mt. to worship? Is this correct?

The feast of Pentecost is a good example.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:5-11

God had designed it this way so when He poured out His Spirit upon those visiting, He would have many missionary's being sent out from Jerusalem as they returned home.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

He would have many missionary's being sent out from Jerusalem as they returned home.

Well I was thinking of your question about Gentiles coming but my thought was turned off topic actually and another time period. So I won't ask.

However, I'm glad you pointed this out, I had never thought of this or ever heard it before. It makes the timing perfect doesn't it? Missionaries.

 

[John 8:32]

Would, in your opinion, there be a need for Gentile converts to travel to Jerusalem to be there for the feast's?

Just a short question about this could you please tell me what you see?

I've read it as though once a year all the nations must come to Jerusalem or the Mt. to worship? Is this correct?

The feast of Pentecost is a good example.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:5-11

God had designed it this way so when He poured out His Spirit upon those visiting, He would have many missionary's being sent out from Jerusalem as they returned home.


JLB

Brings to light an interesting thought. Had the Apostles been celebrating Ishtar and not keeping the Feast Days of God, they would not have received the Holy Spirit. They would not have been there on teh Feast of Pentecost...

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Pentecost:

G4005
πεντηκοστή
pentēkostē
pen-tay-kos-tay'
Feminine of G4004; fiftieth (G2250 being implied) from Passover, that is, the festival of “pentecostâ€: - Pentecost.

 

[JLB]

Brings to light an interesting thought. Had the Apostles been celebrating Ishtar and not keeping the Feast Days of God, they would not have received the Holy Spirit. They would not have been there on teh Feast of Pentecost...

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 1:1

If they were "keeping the Law of Moses" the one place they would have been would be the temple, offering the "natural first fruits offering" as commanded by Moses.

However, that was not the case. They actually had to be commanded by Jesus to even stay in Jerusalem.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:4-5

Where were they planning on going -

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:18-20


JLB