When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[About the Son of God]

Re: When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

@John 8:32 , gave you the definition of the "taken away" and the Gk but has not given you the definition in the GK of what was nailed to the cross. Here is the GK from Strong's which you can find (if you don't already know) at http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/L...gs=G1378&t=KJV and read it for yourself.
Strong's #1378 - Greek - dogma - doctrine, decree, ordinance of public decrees of the Roman Senate of rulers the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living I cannot copy and paste from the Thayer's Lexicon on the same page but there you will find under #2. the definition as being the laws of Moses, and the Gk, at the end of the definition of #2 it specifically refers this definition to Col 2:14. So what I see is the the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross. This is witness to what was said that the Law would be given Until the Seed (Jesus) of Abraham, came.

Unfortunately, biblical dictionaries of Greek are written with people who read their own theology in...
It's great to use lexicons and dictionaries as starting points, but if you want to build on a rock foundation -- verify what they say. Strong's is very sloppy.... but it's a good start for an exhaustive concordance search.

There's not a single example in Greek O.T. of the word "dogma" being applied to Moses or any of his laws. Not one.

Throughout the whole bible, the Greek word "dogma" refers to a judgment made by a King. Moses was accused of attempting to start a dynastic family at one point (along with a racist remark against his dark skinned wife), and he denied that; so it's not surprising that the word was avoided carefully.

The word "dogma" doesn't appear until the book of Nehemiah, and in all OT cases; the word appears with a "king" being the one writing it. ( And a king who had was primarily gentiles/pagan to boot... )
Concordance of easily KJV correlated examples: Esther 3:9, Daniel 2:12-13, 2:15, 6:13
Nehemiah has examples I've omitted... If you need me to find those, I can -- but the verse numbering is different.
I can also show examples from classic Greek outside the bible; but I assume the bible is more comfortable?

Consider the "decree"'s in the NT: First notice that the Apostles are considered equivalent to kings: Matthew 19:28-29.
(and Jesus said , "I am the resurrection.", therefore those in Christ already reign.);

The whole exhaustive list is Luke 2:1, Acts 16:4, Acts 17:7, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:20,

Notice, that the Law of Moses is spoken of very often in the N.T. ... but there are no definite examples of Jesus ever calling a statute of Moses (dogma); nor of Moses or his own people doing so.

In every case the word is used, the decision ( decree ) reached is at the discretion of a ruler; in modern terms, the word is far closer to "executive privelege" or "judgment" than "law".

The old covenant Pharisees (and the New Covenant twelve apostles) were given the right to *bind* and loose decrees.
When a Jewish King or Judge is exercising authority over his *own* people, that decree is referred to as "single" fingered to remind his subjects of where the authority comes from: Consider: God wrote the ten commandments single fingered-ly.

1Kings 12:10; Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10

It's the very fact that teachers of the Law ( scribes & pharisees ) refused to *loosen* (lift a finger) the laws when appropriate (mercy) that made Jesus very angry. (eg: esp. at their hypocrisy ). Matthew 23:2-4 ; The Pharisees happily claimed the power of Moses' ruling power and the later idea of "king" ship -- but failed to rule justly and mercifully.

With that in mind, look at Colossians 2:20-22 ; Where it ends in "commandments and doctrines of men" ?
It was the Sanhedren, and Pharisees of the old covenant who no longer had power to "bind" commands over Christians; God took that authority away from them, and gave the Power (fully on Pentecost, I presume) to the Apostles;

The Apostles are, therefore, no longer "men" -- but God's anointed apostles. (anointed with the Holy Spirit).

A summary:
Matthew 19:28-29, Matthew 21:43, Matthew 21:45, and for the full context Matthew 21:37-45.

The twelve apostles have the right to bear witness to God, as a cross examiner/judge, even to a death sentence:
Acts 5:4-5 ( eg: Ananias lied to Peter in fact, but note -- Peter explains it to him, "you lied to the Spirit." )


The second word that was part of the discussion: handwriting -- is translated perfectly literally.

The Greek merely means something written by hand; and in particular, meaning an original or a signed contract; (Printing presses weren't invented). I have exhaustively checked it, but there aren't enough biblical examples to show you here.
Essentially: It means a contract, or a debt.

One last note of importance: There is one other place the solitary finger is used -- it's the priest's finger, when blotting or smearing blood on the altar, to purify, atone, or release someone from sin.

 

[Deborah13]

One last note of importance: There is one other place the solitary finger is used -- it's the priest's finger, when blotting or smearing blood on the altar, to purify, atone, or release someone from sin.

Thank you for such an extensive post. And the use of scripture. I appreciate it.
I have been trying to use a Greek interlinear as well but I am not skilled by any means. Sometimes though it is OK to be incorrect if there are those more knowledgeable who take notice and try to correct and teach. Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

If your doctrine is correct, why is Paul teaching the law of Moses...and teaching others to fulfill it outside of Israel?

"8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written" (1 Corinthians 9:8-9 NASB)

This law was given for our sake. But you say it has been abolished, and when it was in force it was only for the Land. It's interesting that he makes his appeal to that which is written--but which you say is no longer applicable in any way shape or form--to guide and teach the gentile Corinthians.

Your example is like saying - Because of the principles and insights of the types and shadows that the Law portrayed in point us to Christ, were are to keep the Law of Moses.

Be honest. This is Paul teaching a gentile church to fulfill a requirement of the law of Moses.

Faith, expressing itself in love, is how we are to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses. The requirements of the law of Moses didn't go away. They are fulfilled in the new way of faith in Christ.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

If your doctrine is correct, why is Paul teaching the law of Moses...and teaching others to fulfill it outside of Israel?

"8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.†God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written" (1 Corinthians 9:8-9 NASB)

This law was given for our sake. But you say it has been abolished, and when it was in force it was only for the Land. It's interesting that he makes his appeal to that which is written--but which you say is no longer applicable in any way shape or form--to guide and teach the gentile Corinthians.

Your example is like saying - Because of the principles and insights of the types and shadows that the Law portrayed in point us to Christ, were are to keep the Law of Moses.

Be honest. This is Paul teaching a gentile church to fulfill a requirement of the law of Moses.

Faith, expressing itself in love, is how we are to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses. The requirements of the law of Moses didn't go away. They are fulfilled in the new way of faith in Christ.

Be honest?

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1 Corinthians 10:1-6


... all were baptized into Moses.

Be honest, were the children of Israel going down to the Red Sea to be baptized?

I will give you a hint, - They crossed over on dry ground.

However this shadow points to something greater.

Without this teaching we would still think there is only one Baptism. Awesome!

Does this example teach us that we are to keep the law of Moses?


Likewise -
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 1 Corinthians 9:9-10


If Paul were to teach this as the law of Moses they were to keep, then it would mean that He was to teach them exactly what it says, -

That a person is not to literally muzzle a literal ox while it is treading out the grain, In the Land of Israel!

However that is not what Paul is teaching, he is teaching a principle that those who teach and train you up in the Gospel [Sow Spiritual things], should be a partaker with you in "reaping Natural things".

How can anyone think that the Law of Moses was to be enforced in the land of Greece, upon Gentile Christians no less!

Brother, If you show me from the Law of Moses where The law of Moses was applicable to Gentiles living in Greece, Then I will listen to your example.


JLB

 

[About the Son of God]

Thank you for such an extensive post. And the use of scripture. I appreciate it. I have been trying to use a Greek interlinear as well but I am not skilled by any means. Sometimes though it is OK to be incorrect if there are those more knowledgeable who take notice and try to correct and teach. Thanks

Not all mistakes lead to damnation... to be sure! lol.
but we each can only bring what we have found, forward, and small mistakes; (not arrogance) are part of even the Apostles journeys.

I myself make mistakes too, and I do my best to not hide mistakes, or to over-state the facts I do find.
When I swallow my pride and admit a mistake, I usually feel a lot more free afterward. Or perhaps I should say, I feel more *stable*.

You're welcome.

And... I think it's really great you're taking the time to use an interlinear.
If you need help understanding why two words are the same or not (conjugations, moods, tenses)... don't hesitate to ask; although, many helpful things can be figured out without knowing those!

Your brother in Christ, Andrew.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

If your doctrine is correct, why is Paul teaching the law of Moses...and teaching others to fulfill it outside of Israel?

"8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written" (1 Corinthians 9:8-9 NASB)

This law was given for our sake. But you say it has been abolished, and when it was in force it was only for the Land. It's interesting that he makes his appeal to that which is written--but which you say is no longer applicable in any way shape or form--to guide and teach the gentile Corinthians.

Your example is like saying - Because of the principles and insights of the types and shadows that the Law portrayed in point us to Christ, were are to keep the Law of Moses.

Be honest. This is Paul teaching a gentile church to fulfill a requirement of the law of Moses.

Faith, expressing itself in love, is how we are to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses. The requirements of the law of Moses didn't go away. They are fulfilled in the new way of faith in Christ.

Be honest?

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1 Corinthians 10:1-6


... all were baptized into Moses.

Be honest, were the children of Israel going down to the Red Sea to be baptized?

I will give you a hint, - They crossed over on dry ground.

However this shadow points to something greater.

Without this teaching we would still think there is only one Baptism. Awesome!

Does this example teach us that we are to keep the law of Moses?

You are purposely using examples that do not support what I've been saying and ignoring the examples that plainly and openly do support what I've been saying. This is why I suggest you are being dishonest about this.

Likewise - [/B][/B]
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 1 Corinthians 9:9-10


If Paul were to teach this as the law of Moses they were to keep, then it would mean that He was to teach them exactly what it says, -

That a person is not to literally muzzle a literal ox while it is treading out the grain, In the Land of Israel!

However that is not what Paul is teaching, he is teaching a principle that those who teach and train you up in the Gospel [Sow Spiritual things], should be a partaker with you in "reaping Natural things".

You haven't been listening to what I'm saying. The law of Moses is to be understood in terms of 'requirements', and 'fulfillment'. Think how the Mosaic requirement for blood is fulfilled in Christ and you'll see what I'm talking about. Christ is not a literal to-the-letter keeping of the law of Moses, but fulfills God's requirements found in the law of Moses nonetheless. Faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses. And the Church in all the world is to be taught to do that.

Sadly, the indoctrination in the church today will force you to think, first, 'no one is justified by the law' (as if that's the only thing law is about), then immediately behind that the indoctrination will force you to think 'literal to-the-letter' keeping of the law. That programmed thinking will keep you from seeing the truth of how faith does in fact satisfy the law of Moses if you let them. In fact, faith is expected to uphold the law of Moses as I have been putting that forth here.

How can anyone think that the Law of Moses was to be enforced in the land of Greece, upon Gentile Christians no less!

Apart from the way you are demonizing the argument, it's easy to see that Paul thought that. It's undeniable. The indoctrination of law/grace that is in the church today is probably what's causing you to have such a legalistic and narrow view of this.

[/B]Brother, If you show me from the Law of Moses where The law of Moses was applicable to Gentiles living in Greece, Then I will listen to your example.

You're couching the argument to protect your doctrine. We all know the Land, and the law that ruled the people of that Land, is illustrative of the separating out of the people of God from the world. It's no different now. The people of God are separated unto their own 'place' of blessing. A blessing that is contingent on obedience to the rules and regulations that govern the people of God, summed up in the Mosaic command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The law of the oxen being one of those examples of how we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses by "faith expressing itself through love". That is how the people of God walk in the blessings of their salvation.

If you don't start thinking in terms of 'fulfillment', and 'requirements', instead of the narrow legalistic thinking of 'keep', and 'laws', you'll see we do indeed uphold the requirements of the law of Moses in this New Covenant...and teach each to do so. Moses law of blood sacrifice is, IMO, the premier, and most easily understood example of this.

 

[John 8:32]

You haven't been listening to what I'm saying. The law of Moses is to be understood in terms of 'requirements', and 'fulfillment'. Think how the Mosaic requirement for blood is fulfilled in Christ and you'll see what I'm talking about. Christ is not a literal to-the-letter keeping of the law of Moses, but fulfills God's requirements found in the law of Moses nonetheless. Faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses. And the Church in all the world is to be taught to do that.

Sadly, the indoctrination in the church today will force you to think, first, 'no one is justified by the law' (as if that's the only thing law is about), then immediately behind that the indoctrination will force you to think 'literal to-the-letter' keeping of the law. That programmed thinking will keep you from seeing the truth of how faith does in fact satisfy the law of Moses if you let them. In fact, faith is expected to uphold the law of Moses as I have been putting that forth here.

Keeping the Law is not a matter of don'ts and God is just waiting for us to make a mistake, it is instruction in how to live and love God and neighbor. Just an example...

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

I hear a lot about the Law of Love, Love thy neighbor. Here is an example of how to...

In those days, houses were constructed differently than today. The roof was typically flat and used as part of the living space. (Google "road of the roofs" sometime.) Anyhoo, people spent time on their roofs. So, when one built a house, he was required to put a battlement (poor translation, parapet or handrail is the sense of the Hebrew) on his roof so that no one fell off and got hurt. How do you apply this today? make sure when you build something, or do something, you do not create a hazard that another can get hurt on. This is loving your brother and fulfilling the Law. If you dig a pit and do not barricade it and your neighbors cow or horse falls in...

Exo 21:33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
Exo 21:34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

You are responsible. The Law of Love dictates that you would love your neighbor by protecting him and his assets from damage when you dig a ditch or pit by properly barricading it.

Something wrong with these principles? They fulfill what Paul says...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This seem overly complicated? Is their a reason why the Laws have to be written?

Deu 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

Take a look at our House and Senate if you think wise and in many cases, God-fearing, men can govern without Divine guidance.

 

[JLB]

You are purposely using examples that do not support what I've been saying and ignoring the examples that plainly and openly do support what I've been saying. This is why I suggest you are being dishonest about this.

Brother, I am using examples in context. The example you used in 1 Corinthians 9 is further illustrated a few verse's later in 1 Corinthians 10. Paul is teaching principles in the Law of Moses, that are Illustrated in Shadows and Types.

Think how the Mosaic requirement for blood is fulfilled in Christ and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I agree with you concerning the requirement of the Law. What I don't agree with is which Law to whom you prescribe the requirement.

The Law of sin and death was originally seen in the garden. The blood of innocent animals was shed and the skins of those animals were used to clothe the "naked" Adam and Eve.

The requirement of the Law was pronounced in the garden with these words - ... He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Thus the announcement of THE REQUIREMENT was made when the incident occurred.

The Law of sin and death is the Law of God that was "seen" in the Law of Moses.

When the law of Moses was taken out of the way, the Law of God still remains today.

You and I agree on a lot more than you realize.

It is my pitiful lack of expressing the truth clearly that is the hindrance.


JLB

 

[SeekHisFace]

I would like to share where the Lord led me this morning...He surely is still showing me more on this subject--He is so faithful.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This scripture reminded me of when God said He would write His laws in our hearts.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this is why I believe that the law is not abolished--and Jesus said it---if He said it then I believe it...it is just that it is a better covenant ... Jesus for what He did...the law is still here but is ministered to us by the Spirit in the tablets of the heart (and mind) instead of tablets of fleshly stone. The Spirit is what teaches and leads us to light and all truth as we abide, ask, and listen.

Blessings in Christ...

 

[JLB]

I would like to share where the Lord led me this morning...He surely is still showing me more on this subject--He is so faithful.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This scripture reminded me of when God said He would write His laws in our hearts.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this is why I believe that the law is not abolished--and Jesus said it---if He said it then I believe it...it is just that it is a better covenant ... Jesus for what He did...the law is still here but is ministered to us by the Spirit in the tablets of the heart (and mind) instead of tablets of fleshly stone. The Spirit is what teaches and leads us to light and all truth as we abide, ask, and listen.

Blessings in Christ...

Key Phrase - My Laws , not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this is why I believe that the law is not abolished--and Jesus said it---if He said it then I believe it...it is just that it is a better covenant ...

Yes, a new WAY of relating to God (Romans 7:6 NASB), not new requirements.

...the law is still here but is ministered to us by the Spirit in the tablets of the heart (and mind) instead of tablets of fleshly stone.

Same requirements of law, now fulfilled in the NEW way of the Spirit, not destroyed by the new way of the Spirit.

When we walk in the Spirit we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses, not destroy or abolish them. Although the New Covenant fulfillment of some laws gives the appearance of having abolished them.

The law of the oxen is a perfect example: a Mosaic law that gets fulfilled when we walk in our 'faith expressing itself in love', not abolished, but which gives the appearance of being abolished and belonging to another time in the history of God's people. Simply not so. As Paul says, "written for us"!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Key Phrase - My Laws , not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

JLB

As I showed you, the Mosaic laws do in fact represent the eternal laws of God. There's no basis upon which to exclude the law of Moses as being written on the heart simply because they had literal stipulations lasting only until the new order.

Christ's blood is a perfect example. The very beginning of one's walk with God is to have the law of sacrifice for sin written on the heart. That doesn't abolish the law of Moses, relegating it to another time in history. It upholds it!

You'd do better to argue for the old covenant passing as a way, or system, of relating to God, not the abolishment of law.

 

[John 8:32]

I would like to share where the Lord led me this morning...He surely is still showing me more on this subject--He is so faithful.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This scripture reminded me of when God said He would write His laws in our hearts.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this is why I believe that the law is not abolished--and Jesus said it---if He said it then I believe it...it is just that it is a better covenant ... Jesus for what He did...the law is still here but is ministered to us by the Spirit in the tablets of the heart (and mind) instead of tablets of fleshly stone. The Spirit is what teaches and leads us to light and all truth as we abide, ask, and listen.

Blessings in Christ...

Key Phrase - My Laws , not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

JLB

Who was saying this? Jesus Christ. What are His Laws? To determine that, let's read a little...

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

No one has ever seen the shape of the Father. Now one has ever heard His voice.

Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Notice he is in italics? Means it was not in the original. Here Christ says that he is I Am. This explains why they went backward and fell to the ground. They were not suddenly taken up with the clumsies, they knew what I Am meant...

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now Moses saw the shape of Someone, but according to John 5:37, it was not the Father...

Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Moses saw the back parts of Someone, but again it was not the Father.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

And then continued with the rest of the Commandments.

God spoke all these words...

Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Israel heard the voice of Somone, but it was not the Father (John 5:37). Who in the world could this be?

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The One who knelt down in the Garden and fashioned a man from the clay was Christ. The One who spoke to Israel on Mt. Sinai was Christ. The One who spoke to Moses face to face was Christ...

Same One who said...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The same One who said...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

and then also said...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And identified the Commandments as the Ten Commandments. Paul concurs...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

You want to fulfill the Law? You want to Love?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[John 8:32]

What was wrong with the Old Covenant?

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The fault was not with the Commandments, it was with the people. Now remember this is Christ speaking...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

 

[SeekHisFace]

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this is why I believe that the law is not abolished--and Jesus said it---if He said it then I believe it...it is just that it is a better covenant ...

Yes, a new WAY of relating to God (Romans 7:6 NASB), not new requirements.

...the law is still here but is ministered to us by the Spirit in the tablets of the heart (and mind) instead of tablets of fleshly stone.

Same requirements of law, now fulfilled in the NEW way of the Spirit, not destroyed by the new way of the Spirit.

When we walk in the Spirit we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses, not destroy or abolish them. Although the New Covenant fulfillment of some laws gives the appearance of having abolished them.

The law of the oxen is a perfect example: a Mosaic law that gets fulfilled when we walk in our 'faith expressing itself in love', not abolished, but which gives the appearance of being abolished and belonging to another time in the history of God's people. Simply not so. As Paul says, "written for us"!

Amen! when we love the truth, which leads us to the light, we can walk by that faith in Him. We surely need the Spirit to help us in our walk.
Thank you...i enjoy your posts.
Blessings to you and yours...

 

[cupid dave]

What was wrong with the Old Covenant?

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The fault was not with the Commandments, it was with the people. Now remember this is Christ speaking...

Clear and straight forward these verses illustrate my point that the rules of the church today against Christians behaving immorally are acknowledged by the ritual of weekly Confessions, numerous required Hail Marys, a visit to the cathedral, tithing, and then a return to the same behavior during the next week.

This was what Judaism had reduced to when Jesus complained in 32AD.

Break the rules, 613 of them, bring a dove or some barley to the priests, and do it again and again.

 

[cupid dave]

Amen! when we love the truth, which leads us to the light, we can walk by that faith in Him. We surely need the Spirit to help us in our walk.
Thank you...i enjoy your posts.
Blessings to you and yours...

Exactly...

Our Lord is Truth.

Facing the Truth about our cycle of sin, sacrifice, sin again is the way that the Torah will be fulfilled, to love God and Love neighbor who the sins harm directly or indirectly.

 

[Deborah13]

If your doctrine is correct, why is Paul teaching the law of Moses...and teaching others to fulfill it outside of Israel?

"8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.†God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written" (1 Corinthians 9:8-9 NASB)

I don't see here that Paul was teaching them the Law of Moses. What he is teaching is the Spirit that is the true motive behind the Law of Moses. "Giving, sharing, supporting".
What I see was the problem was that God gave these Laws to help them but they became rituals, rather like obeying a speed limit sign without understanding that the speed limit is posted for both your safety and the safety of others.
It was the intent of the Law and why it was given, the spirit behind that was lost.

So now we have signed on to the New Covenant, which is the Spirit of the Law. The actual obeying is done out of the intent, for God, for others, and self too. We are blessed.

I can guarantee there are very few Christians who obey the Law of Moses in giving but they do obey in giving by what comes from their heart in most cases. So the spirit of the Law is upheld. Some give more, some give less but if they pray and trust God, the Spirit will lead.
I know very few who give the approx. 23 1/3 % of their gross income as per the Law and yet this is one way they could still uphold the Law of Moses besides what they eat kosher, wear of unmixed fabric, keep the feasts, etc.

I wonder.....God gives the Law of Moses with the Spirit behind it, to benefit the people, gives written guidelines, man fails.
God gives the Spirit with the Law behind it, gee how is man doing with that?

 

[John 8:32]

I would find it most interesting and enlightening if someone could explain to me how to obey say, the command not to commit adultery in the spirit, all the while having a go at the neighbors spouse. Looks to me like one has to do both.

 

[cupid dave]

I don't see here that Paul was teaching them the Law of Moses. What he is teaching is the Spirit that is the true motive behind the Law of Moses. "Giving, sharing, supporting".

Right...

Paul and we today examine the scriptures in order to understand what the basic point is therein.

We come to see that the WORD truth is a new covenant added to the Torah which sums to love god and neighbor.

We come to see that we are harming our neighbors, directly or indirectly, when we sin, and it does not matter that we then make a sacrifice and ignore the Truth about our repetitious behaviors that we will not change.


We can go back to the OT to support this view, but that is merely to source how we arrived at these conclusions.
It is not teaching that we ought retrun to the Torah and forget about the responsibility to accept the Truth about us.

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.